As promised I have looked at John Warren’s piece on “The Science of Religion”.

In opposition to Stephen Gould and as an orthodox Christian I agree with John Warren that Science and religion cannot be separated. Contra John, I assert religion involves the knowledge of God whereas Science is the attempt to trace the finger of (the creator) God.

I have no idea of what John means by talking about religion having come to a dead end. This is self delusion. While I recognise a certain, no doubt pleasing, flourish to claim religion requires “a need to (be) endlessly interpreting… words to the changing demands of society”, I for one find the Christian faith remarkably relevant to the state of western society in particular. And as for John’s claim that the materialist path has led to unending understanding and real control, the claim both over reaches itself and frightens at the one and the same time. Science has capacity for both good and bad, and who can deny the bad, when we think of the devastations of 20th century wars.

Every race has some concept of God, humanity is irrefutably religious and this shows no signs of dissipating. Fascinating to observe the collapse of atheistic communism and the return of many Russians to their ancient faith. And what shall we say of the rapid spread of the Christian faith in China, where recent estimates place the number of Christians at between 50 and 100 millions? And this in a nation where atheistic communism forced out the missionaries leaving behind barely 5 million Chinese Christians.

I want to assure John that we Christians are a long long way from seeing ourselves down and out. In the West, without doubt we are struggling, but what shall we say of the West with its fertility in precipitous, possible terminal decline?

I may come back with some comments on John's excessive, indeed unsustainable faith in evolution………….

John Warren says, "If “Aslan” wants evidence of evolution he/she should look in the mirror. The beginning was just two little cells, they grew and developed into a very complex individual and will, unfortunately, die. In other words Aslan evolved."

This is nothing more than the faith statement of a materialist, nothing more, nothing less. It cannot be demonstrated by evolution and anyone who says so is having themselves on.

I read the article. Maybe it's changed, because nowhere in it can I find a statement that Flew wasn't convinced by modern science that evolution is impossible. One famous philosopher deciding that modern science supports intelligent design will not change the facts. The views and motivations of great scientists have no effect on the reality of the things they, or others, discover. Apparently I was right and there is nothing to *get*, you are just making an appeal to authority -- it's fallacious. If modern scientific discoveries supported intelligent design then creationists would be able to make sound logical arguments capable of surviving the peer review process, but they don't.

"I am aware of the talk.origins archive. Here is the rebuttal to that nonsense:"
Even with a quick glance at that page I can see that it is your reference that lacks sense:

First point: simplifies argument into a strawman.
Second point: rejects evidence because evolution could also produce different evidence.
Third point: ignores it, uses scientific debate on a related subject as a refutation instead.

Three strikes and you're out, I won't spend more time on it. You wanted arguments for evolution and you have them, or at least know where to find them.

"For evolution to occur, life must exist. If life does not exist then evolution is a non-starter."
I think therefore...

"Explain the beginning of life or concede that evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups."
I'm not going to spend more time explaining things, things you could find out for yourself, just for you to shoot them down without giving them any consideration. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for my "fairy tale", what about yours? It doesn't matter if an alien or a supernatural force created life, evolution would still be fact: red herring.

"Not simple at all. See:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v11/i1/enzymes.asp"

Sarfati? You can't be serious, this guy thinks the 2nd law of thermodynamics disproves evolution. Like you, he wants abiogenesis to produce full cells like we have today. His poor critiques of *three* possible methods for creating life have incorrect expectations too.

I watched with interest as the flow of these comments descended from the first 2 rather 'serious minded' posts, quickly into an oblivion of 'My scholar can kick your scholars butt' and 'your stuuuupid' and.. etc etc.

Its interesting too, noticing that as soon as some 'warrior of atheism' gets a little edgy and shakey, "Oh, that doesn't change what he discovered" etc :)

The one I find MOST interesting (John) is the idea of God being nothing more than the invention of chemical processes of the mind.

That does nothing to explain an absolute plethora of well known and reliably witnessed phenomena of God intervening in amazing ways in our earthly abode and experience. But one needs to be on the cutting edge of the kingdom to see this kind of thing. But thats not what I wanted to share here 2night. I've addressed something of the article, and comments, now I want to share some joy.

"Boaz, dont you know that the church is dying, fading, dead, past use by date etc"

Hmm having just come back from the Telstra Dome where 37,000 'god botherers' were sharing in the joyful worship and fellowship of 'He who is not there', and singing, waving their misguided hands around, to the hip sounds of contemporary Christian bands of the highest calibre, with our Christian Governor General sharing with us, I don't have any desire to verbally whack the likes of brother kenny :), The dynamism and energy and overflowing love, was truly something to behold and experience.
I just say "The road to Damascus is long and winding, be careful what you look at on the way".

Interestingly, 37,000 is also the average figure for the number of spectators at AFL matches at the Telstra Dome for 2004. So the Holy Rollers are as popular as footy... hallelujah!

I know it's something of a cliche that Aussies treat their sport with religious reverence, but... are you absolutely sure those people weren't there to watch the footy?

Morgan :)

"The dynamism and energy and overflowing love, was truly something to behold and experience."

You don't have to believe in a deity to experience the above, Boaz, you just have to be human and be part of a positive experience - be it football (Morgan) or the Big Day Out. I have also experienced dynamic energy and overflowing love during sex or watching a sunset. Life is wonderful. I don't see any evidence of some superior being in it just the reality of my senses. My brain chemistry. We evolved to feel in order to continue.