Not that I particularly want to legitimize numbat's last post, but I would like to clarify for others, as best I can, exactly what the "theory of evolution" refers to.

In general speech a theory is a mere hypothesis, whereas in science it refers to a falsifiable explanation of data, backed up by scientific evidence. The theory of evolution then, is about explaining how evolution works, particularly how it worked on Earth and it seeks to explain how all the evidence for evolution fits together. Likewise, the theory of gravity is meant to explain how gravity works; there is much more evidence and consensus for the general validity of the theory of evolution than the theory of gravity. Scientific theories are never proven and science does not rely on faith since it makes no unequivocal claims. Science does not assume a purely materialistic existence, but it can only consider things that are part of (and thus can interact with) this universe.

In addition to the theory of evolution, there is the fact that evolution occurs and the scientific fact that evolution brought about the species we see today. Comparing that to gravity, there is the fact that gravity exists and the scientific fact that gravity is what keeps us on the planet. Scientific facts are just data supported by thorough evidence or experiment.

Of course Frazer was quite wrong about all early religions being animistic. He probably got the idea from E.B. Tylor. And developmental theories of this and that were all the rage way back then.

There's a great deal of evidence supporting the idea that the oldest religions were all monotheistic. Polytheism and animism might well be called the religious expression of devolved cultures.

But the thing I really wanted to point out is that this insistence on matter and nothing but matter runs into a major brick wall in relation to some very interesting near death experiences that have been reported and that cannot in any way, shape or form be attributed to nutrient starvation in the brain. People have reported on things like conversations that took place in corridors far away from where their bodies were lying as health care people worked to save them. One person talked about a red shoe on the hospital roof that was subsequently discovered to be there.

If I were a betting person I would bet that our materialist devotees will pooh pooh these reports. Most likely that would be because they have an emotional attachment to materialism. Most likely that would be because there's considerable satisfaction in regarding oneself as the god of one's own life, able to decide right and wrong, believing that death is the end of everything and that, therefore, there will be no consequences for anything done, or chosen, in this life

Specific replies:

To David: My reference to ”endlessly interpreting ..words” was meant to be more than a flourish. Christians take the words of the Bible as their foundation. The argument between homosexual-supporting Christians and their opponents seems to me to be reduced to each side offering different interpretations of what is written in that Bible. The argument about the ordination of women does, in the same way, reduce to a battle of meanings of words. And each of the arguments arise because both homosexuals and women are playing a more forceful (demanding) part in society.
My reference to Aslan in the mirror was meant to make the point that his/her birth, development and death was an example of evolution just as the birth, development and death of stars is evolution in action. One can’t demonstrate anything by evolution, only understand things that start, develop and die by recognizing that they are undergoing a process of evolution. I don’t have “faith” in evolution, the concept just helps me to understand how nature works.

To jrm: I certainly don’t pooh-pooh all the startling reports of people thinking that they had had a near-death experience or seen aliens or heard a supernatural voice. My only question is whether that experience was the result of something which had taken place outside their brain or inside their brain. As for the oldest religions all being monotheistic, I don’t think even the Christian religion has solved the problem of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

JRM wrote-There's a great deal of evidence supporting the idea that the oldest religions were all monotheistic. Polytheism and animism might well be called the religious expression of devolved cultures.

Got some evidence to back that up?

JRM it isn't an emotional attachment that pooh-poohs such reports just we have a higher standard when it comes to objective evidence. Do you believe that that testimony by that crossover ‘psychic’ guy is reliable evidence for the afterlife?

Also you must do better than straw man ad Hom’s to make your case, as I’m yet to see any evidence that the gaols are full of those amoral atheists who just love to rape, murder and pillage.

"My only question is whether that experience was the result of something which had taken place outside their brain or inside their brain."

Oh, get real! Please! If there is nothing but matter how could anything be occurring in someone's brain when the thing occurring is far removed from their body and, therefore, is far removed from any sensation that their body might have perceived even if nutrient deprived? If the occurrence is real then, as I implied, or maybe said, people who refuse to accept that it occurred have to be emotionally (irrationally) attached to materialism and will believe anything they want to believe as long as it supports their beliefs. I'm perfectly willing to say the same about Christian traditionalists, Jewish traditionalists and any other sort of traditionalist. But being a Christian traditionalist is very different to being born again. Been there. Done that. Know the difference. If you don't know the difference then that's your experience of life and your choice. Maybe it's time for you to learn and choose differently.

And why do we born again Christians think all youse mob need to be saved? Well, that's because we care about you and don't want you to die eternally when it's not necessary. It's not that we want you to behave in any particular (non-smoking, non-drinking, non-dancing, non-card-playing) way in this life, despite what the Baptists might say (that's a joke). We just want you to live. We want to enjoy your company when we move into eternity ourselves. God doesn't want you to be separated from him eternally. We don't want you to be separated from God and from us eternally. Why would you choose to be separated when it means your end? You will have to answer that.

JRM a hearty 'amen' to all that.

The idea that 'religion' is nothing more than chemical rushes of the brain is kinda weak. Without mentioning a host of mentionable material, I'll just try to respond to a couple of comments from above.

MOLLY, we don't INSIST (shouts :) that all people believe in 'our' God. We proclaim Christ, and whosoever 'will' may come. Its as simple as that. We are definitely adamant that salvation is found in no other than Christ, but u can just give us a smiling pat and send us on our blinkered and narrow minded way, if u feel this is something you cannot accomodate in your own heart, it goes with the territory brudda.

For those who say 'prove' this or that. It won't come, because to be truthful, if it did, you would have NO OPTION (oops...shouts again :) but to give your whole life over to God, no excuses at all. There is enuf 'proof' out there, and in there, but it won't be seen by an unredeemed heart or mind. (yes, u can yell 'brainwashed' if u like :)

MORGAN (cheeky look on me now) sure 37,000 may be typical of a footy crowd, but do they all vote the same way ? :))) and no, I don't regard such experiences as validation of truth, I regard them as CELebrations of it. Positive secular experiences DO give us a bit of a buzz, but having been in 'that' mould for quite a while in my past, I can safely say they lack the confident core satisfaction of heart that knowing Christ gives. Secular positive experiences mean I'd always be hearing that niggling little voice "what'ts it all about... Alfie"


Kenny, come home mate, out of that cold wasteland of whatever it is your reading