I lived in London in the 1970's when the IRA were happily bombing Oxford St etc.

It is pointless to extend to those who abuse democracy the democratic rights we respect ourselves.

In this lies the dilemna.

The compromise (and it is a compromise between what we believe and how we act) is to recognise a "War Standard" separate to a "Peace Standard".

To which - certain democratic rights - eg to free association and maybe free speech (for illustrative example) may be curtailed in the national good. The point is such authority should be seen in the context of having a finite duration. That duration being, say, to the signing of a peace accord of "surrender" by one party.

This all requires an enhanced level of TRUST in the government authorities. It requires the assumption that the privations suffered by internees etc. are not abused.
I am not smart or experienced enough in such matters to be able to draw the line between "intense interrogation" and "cruel and inhuman treatment", "forceful restraint" and "torture". I could almost guarantee it will, invariably, result in some "abuse" (we are talking about people here - not perfect machines) and we TRUST the "authorities" will limit, by checks and discovery, that abuse and expedite appropriate discipline against the perpetrators.

Alot of people may disagree with me when I say I think the UK government were correct in the policy of internment in Ireland and I remember the publicity shots the IRA sneaked out of their "courageous bombers and terrorists" doing their bit in the dirty blanket protests where they defacated and smeared it on the walls of their cells and refused to wear anything but a blanket.

I still remember why because the day the IRA blew up the bandstand in Londons Green Park and the Horse Guards at the Serpentine - was shortly after I had driven past both locations on my way to and from my interview at Australia House to migrate to Australia.

And as for the IRA - remember the problems of drug trafficking in Eire exist only with the "blessing" and participation of the IRA. Terrorists find their opportunity for their abusive terror tactics against those they claim to defend more than those they attack.

Col !!!!
I find it rather noteworthy that I can read an article of yours and find myself in total agreement.
Now I just have to sort you out on some other stuff :))

I hope the debate continues. The pendulum has swung to protecting citizens at all costs. When somebody gets pulled out of their car and beaten up by the police in a case of mistaken identity or a Labour party supporter's business gets raided while the Liberal party is in power, the pendulum will probably swing back again. How wide will the net be drawn in defining terrorists? People who protest about asylum seekers, aboriginal rights, abortion, logging, fluoride in drinking water?

Historically, the worst abuses have been carried out by the state (Russia, Germany, Cambodia, Colonial USA). That is why citizens have been protected from the state. We don't have that history in Australia.

Ericcc
I note that you group 'aboriginal issues' along with a number of other left wing favorites :)
Let me make sure u are aware of at least THIS 'rightwing conservative's views on a number of them.
1/ Assylum Seekers. <== "We" control who does or does not come to out country. Full stop.

2/ Aboriginal rights. <=== We should address this NOT in financial terms as much as Cultural/historical terms. Only THEN will the financial have any meaning for them. So, its both. I'm happy to recognize aboriginal access rights to my own land.

3/ Abortion. <=== Having met a person who was rescued from 'post birth' abortion (left in a jar under the hut of a Borneo village with salt in her mouth to die a slow death)...They rather like the idea of being given a choice about whether they live or die. As a man, if I fathered a child, I would regard that as my child from the moment of conception, and never even think of listening to the feminzi 'convenience murderers'. Adoption is the way to go.

4/ Logging. Each year I go to Bemm River, east of Orbost. I note the sustained logging of the area around there. Its still beautiful and year b4 last I saw a lyre bird. First time in 40 yrs of going there that I've seen one.
I've seen the logging in Sarawak, u can't even tell its been done in the area I visited.(selective sustainable logging)

5/ Flouride in Drinking water. I went to the dentist more times than I can count. My mouth would probably be a good commercially viable mining source of the various elements used. My 3 kids, brought up on fluoridated water have been to the dentist....ONCE (one kid once) Eldest is 23 next is 20, next is 16

Oh Ericc -
the closest I have seen to a raid on a business premises by a political activist was when those thugs from one of the unions ransacked and terrorised the Skill Engineering offices and staff wearing face masks - the ringleader had his appeal quashed and is still "doing time".
Then we can talk about the tree huggers who pur nails into trees to maim the men who "legally" operate the chain saws - what they have instead of "respect for humanity" is unprintable.
Of course "Critical Mass" were a bunch of bicycling fascists who thought they could run rough shod over the rights of private motorists and illegally block Melbourne's motor-vehicle only Citiink network.
Now we get to rent a rabble who destroyed government property in their vain attempts to organise an escape from the illegal immigrant detention centres - and actually kidnapped the two young Baktiari (?) boys who were recently deported.
I would watch out getting me going on the matter of abortion - I am Pro-Choice - I regularly defend my position against the herds of Pro-Life sheep on a couple of other forums - I can answer every ProLife 'excuse to interfer' with a reason why abortion should be a matter of individual choice.
That leaves aboriginal rights - well, what can I say - the notion of citizenship presumes all people are equal - aboriginal rights are a matter of human rights and "australian" rights - no more, no less - forget Mabo and that rubbish - no sorry - I don't apologise for what other people do and I don't expect my government to either. The sooner aboriginal activists understand that they are equal and not entitled to special treatment the sooner they will be off the welfare trough and gaining some self respect through being rewarded for their own individual effort.
As for the flouride - did you know some places (Wimbourne in Dorset UK among them) have floride in the water naturally - hardly a matter to go rabid over.

COL

Tree huggers *tick*
Union Thugs *tick*
Flouride *tick*
Abortion... *grrrr* mind sharing your reasons for terminating a life in the interests of 'choice' ?
Aboriginal rights .. *gong* You fail to see that what you are advocating is that if u buy a stolen Tv at a FANTASTIC price, it does not change the fact that its stolen. You didn't steal it sure, but if u KNOW it was stolen.. dont you have a moral obligation to fix the problem ? I can go as far as recognizing we are victims of history also, and 'sorry' does squat for the cultural dark ages our invasion has brought upon them. If you were a black in Zimbabwe and u went hungry every day because the only land the whites left you was the crappiest 10% of the land, while they occupy and prosper on the BEST land.. don't you think your stomach would be telling you something about 'crimes against humanity' that can be FIXED ?