Well said Colin....

all I can say is "I just can't wait" for the 'due process/evidence/fair trial' crowd to get onto this one.

Col.. u will get flack over this. Not from me, but from a few who usually come on line. There will be rationalizations about 'human rights' etc.. there will be whining about due process, there will be sympathy attempts "The hooker who menstruated on him" there will be the 'nothing justifies torture' crowd.. they'll all be here soon.

Fortunately you have the runs on the board as few others of us have.

I agree with David and Colin.In time of war the legal niceties get put on hold.A few will be unfairly treated however the majority will benefit.I've heard it mentioned today the Mr Habib may have rolled over and rated on his fold.It will interesting to see if he will be safe or will they give him a different identity and let him evaporate into our society.

Justice is for honest people. Why should dishonest people be able to hide behind the law? Honest people have nothing to hide. So all evidence should be admissable if it is relevant to a case.

In general, if you have something to hide, you have a problem. And the chances are you are harbouring some dishonesty.

mark, if by that you suggest the US authorities, (have something to hide).. refer colins article.

It might be worth mentioning that the "malay emergency" of a similar period, was fought with similar disregard for legal niceties and it was defeated.

Col,

Thank God people are starting to realise that we're at war
The Anti Bush Brigade would have supported Hitler, in fact their comrades in the Middle East have a similliar agenda to their goostepping forefathers.
Funny how the cries of "kill the Jew" don't have any resonance with the left, who are much to busy with the USA to notice another antisemetic holocaust.

I lived in London in the 1970's when the IRA were happily bombing Oxford St etc.

It is pointless to extend to those who abuse democracy the democratic rights we respect ourselves.

In this lies the dilemna.

The compromise (and it is a compromise between what we believe and how we act) is to recognise a "War Standard" separate to a "Peace Standard".

To which - certain democratic rights - eg to free association and maybe free speech (for illustrative example) may be curtailed in the national good. The point is such authority should be seen in the context of having a finite duration. That duration being, say, to the signing of a peace accord of "surrender" by one party.

This all requires an enhanced level of TRUST in the government authorities. It requires the assumption that the privations suffered by internees etc. are not abused.
I am not smart or experienced enough in such matters to be able to draw the line between "intense interrogation" and "cruel and inhuman treatment", "forceful restraint" and "torture". I could almost guarantee it will, invariably, result in some "abuse" (we are talking about people here - not perfect machines) and we TRUST the "authorities" will limit, by checks and discovery, that abuse and expedite appropriate discipline against the perpetrators.

Alot of people may disagree with me when I say I think the UK government were correct in the policy of internment in Ireland and I remember the publicity shots the IRA sneaked out of their "courageous bombers and terrorists" doing their bit in the dirty blanket protests where they defacated and smeared it on the walls of their cells and refused to wear anything but a blanket.

I still remember why because the day the IRA blew up the bandstand in Londons Green Park and the Horse Guards at the Serpentine - was shortly after I had driven past both locations on my way to and from my interview at Australia House to migrate to Australia.

And as for the IRA - remember the problems of drug trafficking in Eire exist only with the "blessing" and participation of the IRA. Terrorists find their opportunity for their abusive terror tactics against those they claim to defend more than those they attack.

Col !!!!
I find it rather noteworthy that I can read an article of yours and find myself in total agreement.
Now I just have to sort you out on some other stuff :))

I hope the debate continues. The pendulum has swung to protecting citizens at all costs. When somebody gets pulled out of their car and beaten up by the police in a case of mistaken identity or a Labour party supporter's business gets raided while the Liberal party is in power, the pendulum will probably swing back again. How wide will the net be drawn in defining terrorists? People who protest about asylum seekers, aboriginal rights, abortion, logging, fluoride in drinking water?

Historically, the worst abuses have been carried out by the state (Russia, Germany, Cambodia, Colonial USA). That is why citizens have been protected from the state. We don't have that history in Australia.

Ericcc
I note that you group 'aboriginal issues' along with a number of other left wing favorites :)
Let me make sure u are aware of at least THIS 'rightwing conservative's views on a number of them.
1/ Assylum Seekers. <== "We" control who does or does not come to out country. Full stop.

2/ Aboriginal rights. <=== We should address this NOT in financial terms as much as Cultural/historical terms. Only THEN will the financial have any meaning for them. So, its both. I'm happy to recognize aboriginal access rights to my own land.

3/ Abortion. <=== Having met a person who was rescued from 'post birth' abortion (left in a jar under the hut of a Borneo village with salt in her mouth to die a slow death)...They rather like the idea of being given a choice about whether they live or die. As a man, if I fathered a child, I would regard that as my child from the moment of conception, and never even think of listening to the feminzi 'convenience murderers'. Adoption is the way to go.

4/ Logging. Each year I go to Bemm River, east of Orbost. I note the sustained logging of the area around there. Its still beautiful and year b4 last I saw a lyre bird. First time in 40 yrs of going there that I've seen one.
I've seen the logging in Sarawak, u can't even tell its been done in the area I visited.(selective sustainable logging)

5/ Flouride in Drinking water. I went to the dentist more times than I can count. My mouth would probably be a good commercially viable mining source of the various elements used. My 3 kids, brought up on fluoridated water have been to the dentist....ONCE (one kid once) Eldest is 23 next is 20, next is 16

Oh Ericc -
the closest I have seen to a raid on a business premises by a political activist was when those thugs from one of the unions ransacked and terrorised the Skill Engineering offices and staff wearing face masks - the ringleader had his appeal quashed and is still "doing time".
Then we can talk about the tree huggers who pur nails into trees to maim the men who "legally" operate the chain saws - what they have instead of "respect for humanity" is unprintable.
Of course "Critical Mass" were a bunch of bicycling fascists who thought they could run rough shod over the rights of private motorists and illegally block Melbourne's motor-vehicle only Citiink network.
Now we get to rent a rabble who destroyed government property in their vain attempts to organise an escape from the illegal immigrant detention centres - and actually kidnapped the two young Baktiari (?) boys who were recently deported.
I would watch out getting me going on the matter of abortion - I am Pro-Choice - I regularly defend my position against the herds of Pro-Life sheep on a couple of other forums - I can answer every ProLife 'excuse to interfer' with a reason why abortion should be a matter of individual choice.
That leaves aboriginal rights - well, what can I say - the notion of citizenship presumes all people are equal - aboriginal rights are a matter of human rights and "australian" rights - no more, no less - forget Mabo and that rubbish - no sorry - I don't apologise for what other people do and I don't expect my government to either. The sooner aboriginal activists understand that they are equal and not entitled to special treatment the sooner they will be off the welfare trough and gaining some self respect through being rewarded for their own individual effort.
As for the flouride - did you know some places (Wimbourne in Dorset UK among them) have floride in the water naturally - hardly a matter to go rabid over.

COL

Tree huggers *tick*
Union Thugs *tick*
Flouride *tick*
Abortion... *grrrr* mind sharing your reasons for terminating a life in the interests of 'choice' ?
Aboriginal rights .. *gong* You fail to see that what you are advocating is that if u buy a stolen Tv at a FANTASTIC price, it does not change the fact that its stolen. You didn't steal it sure, but if u KNOW it was stolen.. dont you have a moral obligation to fix the problem ? I can go as far as recognizing we are victims of history also, and 'sorry' does squat for the cultural dark ages our invasion has brought upon them. If you were a black in Zimbabwe and u went hungry every day because the only land the whites left you was the crappiest 10% of the land, while they occupy and prosper on the BEST land.. don't you think your stomach would be telling you something about 'crimes against humanity' that can be FIXED ?

David –
Abortion - The Right to exercise Choice is what distinguishes “Life” from mere “Existence”. I do not advocate abortion but I treasure Choice and the fundamental freedoms of speech, elections and sovereignty over ones own body.
A New born infant is an individual. It has ceased to be “exclusively dependent” on the resources of the mother. An embryo / fetus is not an individual in the sovereign sense since it is “dependent, exclusively” on the resources of the mother. I do and always will support the mothers right to her body and its resources above and before the embryo / fetus right to the resources of the mothers body.

"Aboriginal Rights" are essentially an exercise which mixes appeasement with segregation and forms distinctions based on race.
I will never support racially based policies or exercises of appeasement be they promoted by Aboriginals, Black Power or the Klu Klux Klan.

Assimilation will work –
segregation will not work –
Ask Dr M L King’s followers.

Oh and I visited Rhodesia a week after Mugabe came to power in 1980 – since then he has raped and murdered and terrorized and maimed his way through his 25 years of dictatorship, repression and incompetence, reducing what was a stable economy into a cesspool of corruption and misery.
I suggest if you want to make examples of supposed “unfair white oppression” you choose a different example to the one where the black butcher treats his fellow citizens (black or white) with more contempt and less considerations than Ian Smith could even imagine

Col
your feedback is as always appreciated.
My point about abortion is from a different perspective. My biggest problem about terminating a life in the womb is that 'MY' life is also there mate. Its part of ME also. Its a future 'me' as well as a 'her'. Its a precious life coming from her and myself. All that could become a president, a doctor, or a streetsweeper.. he/she is very much there. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

Aboriginal rights. I think you are viewing the issue from a western standpoint of non discrimination.. commendable but not recognizing the real root of the issue. Assimilation 'may' work if the cultural wreckage is addressed first. We need to put ourselves in their position. If everything that u defined yourself as human by and had your identity through was snatched from you and u suddenly found yourself at the bottom of the woodpile, you also might be tempted to drown and bludgeon your sensibilities in alchohol or something. I know one thing Col, the Christian aborigines dont have any of those problems because they have re-defined their identity. For those who have not adopted a new spiritual foundation or view of the world, they are lost beyond words. (socially and culturally) they are trying to define themselves in terms of things which no longer exist.

Col, this issue needs to be looked at from an anthropological viewpoint, not just a monolithic 'social policy' method. There are answers, but they not found in 'shoving money' at people, or using them as political pawns. In that sense I agree with you, that 'equal treatment' is the order of the day. (amazing how we are sounding like the 'evil racist' 1 Nation now eh :)

Zimbabwe.
I take all your points on board about 'Mugabe the man' his approach is clearly reprehensible. The 'direction' is not wrong in my mind, but the mode of travel is ghastly. But it does not change the principle of the matter. No amount of "But look at how well we ran the economy (on stolen land)" will ever change the fundamental equation of the place.
Please don't suggest that Africans are less capable of managing profitable enterprises given the same degree of education and training, that would be 'tut tut'.

Segregation ?
In regard to our aboriginals. I'm not against assimilation, nor am I advocating segregation. I'm focusing on the root barrier to assimilaton. But it should be assimilation which still gives room for their traditional identity. I don't know about you, but when I find myself enjoying family and peace on a fine sunny day, and thinking life could not get much better than this....... I reflect, on how this all came to be, and I realize that like Zacchaeus in Jesus time, 'I have defrauded many' (in an inherited way) While I did not perpetrate the 'sin', I nevertheless benefit from it. Its not possible to return land to fix that problem, because there was no aboriginal concept of 'owning' land as we know it. This is a good thing, because it may mean that symbolic acts can be effective in addressing the problem. Simply recognizing sacred sites, gestures of open hearted attitude, socializing with aboriginal people in a respectful way. All these things can help.
Col, have a close look at New Zealand. The problems I'm referring to 'NEVER' go away, and in cases where there are a significant number of indigenous inhabitants, the festering sore will begin to run, especially among the passionate youth. The way that Australian Capitalists BULLDOZED over the Treaty of Waitangi to increase white settlement did not go unnoticed by the Maori, nor was it forgiven.

Col,stop writing things that I agree with.
A year ago my daughter comes home from Uni and amid conversation declares that"Dad we don't own this country."Well I said," The Romans and Vikings invaded England the Spanish invaded Ireland."
The human race is violent and murderous.200yrs ago we were murdering each other as well as the Aborigines.The Aborigines were doing likewise to each other.They had no concept of Australia as a continent.They suffered more than the Maoris because they weren't as advanced.We have destroyed the Aborigines more today with handouts and given them no way to earn respect for themselves.I respect anyone who tries no matter what their intellect or social/economic status.Everyone must evolve at their own pace.

arjay
if u agree with someone, let it be based on a scientific view, not just gut feeling or emotion and MOST of all not be based on a simplistic western understanding of things.
Taken together, your comment suggests we are just as much victims of history as anyone else, and that would be PART of any attempt to help aboriginals understand their place in the world now. If one thinks about it, if it were not US who came here, it would have been some OTHER power. Understanding just that fact alone should be a helpful step in bringing a sense of reconciliation with us.

Arjay - yes I before I left UK I felt like organising a petition to demand the Danes return the Dane-Geld which they illegally extorted from Anglo Saxons.

As for agreeing with you - pleased to hear it -


David -

Consider this - a woman pregnant but not desirous to be so but is forced, by law not to have an abortion and not pursue her career but devote herself to bringing up baby (who she cannot countenance giving up because she saw what happened to babies in orphanages run by the Christian Brothers). She fails to finish her degree in biology, does not go on to become a leading scientist who discovers the cure for Aids, Alzheimers, Parkinsons Disease and Cancer.
- Your arguement, regarding what people might become, cuts both ways.

Looking at the world from an anthropological perspective would
require me taking on values and priorities I do not necessarily agree with. My perspective on life is -

Rule 1 I am responsible for me and the actions I take. I hold dear and true to my values and responsibilities -

Rule 2 I am not responsible what other people do and therefore do not want to exercise authority over them or tell them how or what their choices should be.

Rule 3 I expect others to respect me with the same grace and reverence as I extend to them

- If everyone followed those rules, there would be no problems.

Reality is - people do not follow those rules. They add to them --
Ban other peoples right to abortions,
Try to build mythical economic social safety nets,
Engineer the social fabric and stop boys doing what comes naturally (playing cowboys and indians pretending to fire guns - on the basis that male behaviour is, by nature, anti social - sign them all up for crochet classes).

I will always look at the world through my own eyes. When I can look at it through other eyes I will have developed some form of multiple personality disorder.

"Anthropology" is an easy method by which one anthropologist will find other anthropologists in the yellow pages - beyond that I am not too sure it has any significant value (I joke - we need to know our history to understand who, how and what we are - and anthropologists are usually paid insufficient to be able to afford a yellow pages ad - unless they are doing Amways on the side)

Finally, I am not responsible for the disasterous mess Southern Rhodesia has been reduced to - Robert Mugabe IS ! (might as well use the old name - there is no credibility in the new one and not much more in Northern Rhodesia). 25 years of Mugabe and it is a greater basket case than in any of the 15 years of Ian Smiths UDI (and that was with the privations of trade sanctions and a guerilla war).

Col
passionately spoken :)
I can appreciate your view, or at least understand it. (abortion)
But for me, the very idea of 'killing' a living person (albeit not fully developed) is a little chilling. So we can disagree on that one.

ANTHROPOLOGY and ABORIGINALS.
The point I am trying to make there Col, is that sometimes a seemingly small thing can have a huge impact on a society. The classic example, probably almost a 'proof text' for such study is the Yir Yoront of Cape York. The introduction of Steel Axes resulted in the destruction of their culture, way of life and now there are but 15 people alive who speak that language. The main reason was the loss of male self esteem and identity which was tied up with the network of relationships surrounding the manufacture and status of stone axes.
I'm saying that we need to latch onto similar 'keys' to aboriginal self perception, and work with them to bring healing. Land is not the key issue for them I believe.

RHODESIA/ZIMBABWE
I have not for a moment suggested that you personally have any responsibility for the sins of the past. Nor do I for things done to the aboriginals. But I know this, just down from where I live are a family who were the original settlers of the area. I can also go into Melbourne, and probably find descendants of the Aboriginals of this very area. While I did not perpetrate their marginalization, that condition does now still exist, and if there is anything I can do to bring healing, I'm happy to do so. I'm seeing more evidence of acknowledgement of Aboriginal history in some areas of Vic, and I think this is a good thing. I mean, I'm sure there are things we can do which would have a positive impact on them. Ive made a contact with an Aboriginal representatives and its a work in progress.

DANEGELD ?
First I knew about it, but while I do sympathize, there are small issues like the 'Opium' wars and huge profits made by the Brits and the Sasoon family from the degradation of the chinese populace. The treaty of Nanjing well and truly made up for any losses to the Danes.
"How can you say to your brother, Let me take that speck out of your eye, when there is a great plank in your own" .. comes to mind also.


CONCLUSION. Is it any wonder that when one looks at the actions of all our past, I resign myself to "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The most notable aspect of our historic sins, is that we tend to see those of 'other' countries/races but not our own.

So who decides who is a terrorist and who gets picked up and taken away. Should all Muslims be picked up? They did bomb a nightclub in Bali? Should all Americans be picked up? They invaded Afghanistan and Iraq? Abortion is legal but Boaz David disapproves, should he be picked up and thrown in jail? Environmentalists are the ones who trespassed and put nails in trees to damage equipment and possibly maim forestry workers? I don't know much about logging and forestry, but I have Environmental in the name of my business. Should I be picked up, just to be sure that the public is protected?

Colin Lamont says he knows who the terrorists are? He says it worked in Hong Kong, do we need it here?

Ericcc
good point, but the only greenies I'd be picking up would be Mr Brown and perhaps the identifiable perpetrators of the nails in trees type acts.

Its not hard to identify the people driving agenda's. Most of these people don't work in isolation, they are members of groups like the 'Resistance' etc.