Howard...
thanx for your response.
The problem with the 'prophetic view' of the battle of Armageddon, is that in entails some symbolic language and can be a little difficult to die down with great certainty, perhaps that's a good thing.
The final end of mankind whether Jew of Gentile, will boil down to the acceptance of the Messiah or His rejection.
Leading up to the final wind up of history, will be momentus events, including a system of commerce which is only accessable to those who are marked by 'the beast' who demands worship. It gets very messy from then on, culminating with the Victory of the Messiah. Sound like something out of Star Wars ? Indeed :) because Revelation is written in apocalyptic style. (which raises issues of interpretation) U could bone up by reading Revelation and some commentaries, perhaps Matthew 24 and Luke 17. Do some research on 'second coming'.

By the way, you still didn't "solve" the middle east.. ur slacking :)

"By the way, you still didn't "solve" the middle east.. ur slacking :) "

You're a tough crowd. But OK, that's a fair enough comment. Indeed I didn't solve it.

I think the best approaches are embodied in two "unofficial" agreements hammered out independently (of their respective governments) by Palestinian and Israeli politicians who were central in the negotiations leading up to the Oslo Agreements, and the "almost" deals negotiated under the auspices of the Clinton Administration between August-September 2000 (at Camp David) and January 2001 (at Taba). THese are the Geneva Accord, led by Yasser Abed Rabbo and Yossi Beilin, and the Peoples' Voice Agreement led by Sari Nusseibeh and Amit Ayalon (forgive my spelling of the names if I got them wrong).

Go to:

http://www.tikkun.org/community/geneva/index.cfm?action=full_text

for the full text of the Geneva Accord and

http://www.ariga.com/treaties/nusseibeh-ayalon.shtml

for text of the Nusseibeh-Ayalon agrgeement.

I believe these represent the outlines of the best possible agreement between Israel and Palestine. A good account of the Camp David and Taba negotiations can be found in Dennis Ross' book "The Missing Peace.' Ross was a Mideast envoy for the first Bush Admin. and both Clinton Admins., and seems to be trusted and respected by both sides. It's worth noting, for those who like to claim that the Palestinians were offered "nothing" or a "Bantustan" at Taba, that both sides in the two non-government accords agree their starting points were where things left off at Camp David and Taba.

The Palestinians were offered a good deal at Taba. Not everything they wanted, and not a perfect deal. I'm not claiming that. But it wasn't "nothing" and it wasn't discontiguous cantons (other than the discontinuity between West Bank and Gaza). If this is another bunch of Zionist progapanda then they've done a damn good job of getting the Palestinians to go along with their story.

See also the "Clinton Framework" and the "EU non-paper" on Taba for perceptions of Pres. Clinton and EU Envoy Miguel Moratinos regarding what was on the table at Taba (and note that the Europeans are not exactly famous for their love of Israel) at http://www.ariga.com/treaties/index.shtml

see finally

http://www.btvshalom.org/resources/

for what I consider reasoned, moderate Jewish voices on a variety of topics ranging from American Jews' role in the US and Israel to the Holocaust and anti-Semitism (this is for you Grace and Josh!)

One more thing. Josh asserts " ...where Jews differ is that their self-interest destabilises an entire region." Aside from my "what-if-Josh-got-his-wish-and-Israel-never-existed" scenario, it's worth noting the Saudis' truly destabilising influence in the US Muslim community via its sponsorship of hate literature. See:

http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/pdfdocs/FINAL%20FINAL%20Saudi.pdf

Note this stuff comes from the Saudi Arabian government and is marked with the seals of Saudi ministries, military branches, and its Washington Embassy. Note also that Freedom House is a multifaith org. that has representatives of a variety of faiths on its board. No particular friend of either side in the Israeli-Palestinian thing, near as I can tell. How widespread this literature is in US mosques is not clear, and I doubt most American muslims are buying into the hate literature disseminated by the Saudi govt., but the Saudis are clearly trying to spread this material. LOTS of money (oil money in this case), and attempts to influence the US from within.

But where are the Jews?

Point: many groups lobby for influence - Jews, Christians, Arabs, potato farmers, labor unions

Howard...
again.. top marks for a secular understanding of the scene over there.
I don't think anyone could better your very balanced and well researched viewpoint. Humanly speaking, I agree.. Most palestinians and a big chunk of Jewish people would agree I'm sure, and if those people were driving the agenda.. there might be hope for an enduring peace.
That's where the prob comes. I've said this quite a bit, but once more won't hurt. The status of Jerusalem and the Temple mount will most probably be the undoing of all well intentioned peace processes.
The more extreme on both ends are driving that agenda. I think you would do well to immerse yourself in the Old Testament, from Genesis 11 up to the end of II Chronicles. The Prophet Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekeiel, perhaps specially from chapter 33 onwards.. its alllll about a) Restoration of Israel and b) the future temple.
Read Lamentations, and meet the soul of the Israelite, pining and mourning for the loss of Jerusalem etc... get a feeeeel for it all... and u will just possibly 'begin' to grasp what that place is all about.
Then, if your really adventurous :) grab hold of some material about the beginnings and expansion of Islam, the life of the Prophet etc.. by the end of about a year of reasonably consistent reading, (of the Old Testament and about Islam) u will start to comprehend the depth and breadth and hight of this special place, with its incomparable history.

W_Howard, since you made reference to me in your last post, let me respond. I think you have misunderstood my position with respect to Israel and zionism, as distinct from the views of moderate american jews, with whom I have little disagreement. Perhaps you might refer back to my earlier posts.

"Read Lamentations, and meet the soul of the Israelite, pining and mourning for the loss of Jerusalem etc... get a feeeeel for it all... and u will just possibly 'begin' to grasp what that place is all about."

I hear ya Boaz - it's a tough nut to crack, the conflict over Jerusalem, esp. the Haram/Temple Mount. Very powerful symbol for Muslims, Jews, and Christians alike. Try to tell Jews they can claim no connection to the place God first made the covenant with Abraham. Or try to tell Muslims the same thing about the place they believe the Prophet ascended to heaven.

The recent moves towards peace are encouraging, and now focus attention on where I think the real conflicts will have to be played out, and that is _among_ Israelis and Jews, and _among_ Palestinians. Abbas will have a tough time establishing authority over Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc., who have only grudgingly agreed to go along with the ceasefire (they are calling a "period of calm" or something like that. Not a ceasefire.

Similarly Sharon will have to face down the zealots for whom the occupied territories are a Biblical birthright. Members of the Knesset and high-ranking officers in the IDF have apparently already gotten death threats.