Boaz,
I think I understand what you are saying. We can become too complacent in Australia. I was visiting Morocco years ago, and had to get out. The government put up the price of bread, and this caused massive rioting in the streets. People were being trampled to death. The government kept closing then opening the borders, so I just decided to get out when opportunity arose.

Different here, rows of bread in miles of aisles.

Oi! Boaz

Don't go putting words into my mouth.

"He gets written off as 'ultra rightwing' as suggested by Pericles"

I said no such thing, nor did I suggest it. I gave up putting people into right- and left-wing boxes shortly after the smoke cleared from "the collapse of communism".

As a rule of thumb here, you can say anything you like about me, my ideas and my principles, and you won't upset me in the least. But if you ascribe to me words that I did not use, or soapboxes I don't stand upon, I'll get cross. Yo capeesh? Grazie paisan.

PERICLES ! and everyone

As for you, ozaware, I'm excited to meet you. I love your website, although it needs less hysteria and more sober reflection - there are far better ones in the US that you could learn from. Here's one that has class: http://www.nationalvanguard.org/

There u go again, busting me for drawing reasonable conclusions from what appeared to be sarcasm :)
"I love your website"
"Less Hysteria more reflection"
"you can learn from the ('ULTRA RIGHT WING') National Vanguard mob.

Ok.. I was too adventurous with my assumptions, but then I can't see your face as u type this stuff.. so went with gut feeling, based on my cumulative image of your apparent position. Annnnyway.. if I got it wrong ... AGAIN.. I'll slink off to my room and THINK about it :)

Ozaware has some very valid and important well researched views, and an obvious committment to those views for the betterment of the nation as he sees it. While I share a lot of those views, it might be for mildly differing reasons.

But.. BACK to the TOPIC....

Aslans point, "is Islam bad.." ? etc.. and mine, about 'competing sub groups in society' where competition is exacerbated by the degree of difference between them and whether to refer to these things is 'demonizing' or valid social criticism.

CREATING and DEMONIZING the 'OTHER'.
Demonizing, as it is usually practiced seems to attempt to debase and dehumanize and attritubute characteristics all of a negative nature irrespective of the truthfulness of those statements to a religion,or race with a view to whipping up public zenophobia where the goal is harming,lynching,slaughtering them. (this is most powerful when actually using half truths).
As I see it, there must be a scale. Where at some point, legitimate social commmentary can become 'demonizing'. The meter would be usually bouncing off the 'demonizing' end during election campaigns and times of economic hardship.

A classic example of this (political) is the case Deen v Lamb [2001] QADT 20. That involved a
complaint by a Muslim who was the Chairman of the Islamic Council of
Queensland. It related to a Federal Election and a pamphlet disributed by one of the candidates. (which quoted from the Quran in a way which suggested Muslims would not obey the law of the land)

Legitimate Social Research
will look at groups and their goals in the normal course of their work, even if they have the ultimate goal of political influence in mind which they may seek to achieve through normal and peaceful lobbying.

So, the question arises "Is there anything to be concerned about from the influence of the Islamic community on our legal, cultural and social texture" ?

Here are some examples of what has happened over recent years.

1/ Burial laws have been amended or an exemption from the Racial Discrimination Act has been granted to allow Muslims to bury their dead in a shroud, rather than a coffin (Vic)
2/ Hume Council (Melb) which has a 12% muslim constituency, (and the mayor was muslim) in 2003 decided NOT to offer Ham sandwiches to the 78% of the constituency because it conflicted with Islamic food laws. (Did it occur to them that a) Ham sambo's are a fave of the others or b) that to put out a table of halal food for the Muslims would be the obvious way around this ? nope)
3/ Stamp Duty Laws (vic) have been amended to facilitate Islamic type loans where no interest is allowed. (As the law stood, they were getting whacked two times for stamp duty as they had to somehow remortgage the property in some interest free manner)
4/ Emergency services are required to treat Muslims differently due to religious sensitivities. (they are the only group out of the major religous groups who have a problem with removing an abused child from a family for its own protection)
5/ NSW one labor seat was subjected to branch stacking by the Lebanese and Palestinian muslims to put up a candidate of theirs who would promote 'anti israel' policies in Parliment.
6/ Islamic council of Vic used the Racial and Regligous Tolerance act IN COLLUSION with the Equal Opportunity Commission, to silence the 2 pastors from the Seminar on Islam, claiming religious vilification.
7/ Islamic schools are studying material which is highly suggestive of the achievement of an Islamic replublic 'at the right time' in Australia. The terminology used suggests that this would happen in a way similar to how Mohammed took the City of Mecca.


CANADA The muslim community lobbied for and was granted the use of Sharia law on civil matters in Canada. (when will they lobby for punishment of apostate muslims ? or.. laws preventing proselytization of Muslims ? )

Looking at world trends and taking the above together, I feel it indicates a fundamental cultural and social incompatability with the existing cultural texture of Australia.

All the above material is adequately sourced and referenced, and if anyone wishes to see them, I'll provide them happily.

Here is one very telling example, from the ICV website: GOALS

http://www.icv.org.au/abouticv.shtml

1/ To vigilantly maintain and apply the true Islamic doctrines as, contained in the Holy Quran and the Sunnah as practiced by the Holy Prophet Mohamed (May Allah's Blessings and Mercy be Upon Him) at all times in the carrying out of the objects of this Constitution.

2/ To vigorously and vigilantly combat and correct any misrepresentation of Islam.

Now, what this means in practice, as evidenced by the Catch the Fire case, is that "Any truth about Mohammed, which might cause people to have ill feeling toward Him, or Islam, must be supressed with the utmost vigour at any cost.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

If mohammed is described as a 'murderer' it is clear from their own history that this is true. The hadith describing this even USES the word Murder.
The murder of Abu Jahl (4434)
The murder of Ka'ab the evil genius of the Jews. (4436)

If he is described as 'very horny' to be vulgar, its also true, he is said to have the sexual strength of 20 men.
If he is described as a 'megalomaniac' as we understand the term, it is also true "The WORLD belongs to Allah and HIS APOSTLE"

If he is described as guilty of torture, this is also true. (cutting off hands, feet and gouging the eyes and leaving to a slow death)

If he is described as holding his followers obedience by fear. Also true. "Case where a muslim can be killed.. "..and if he deserts his deen(religion)"


CONCLUSION:
Given that the GOALs of the Islamic Council of Victoria are to promote Islam "as practiced by the Holy Prophet Mohamed"
and to DEFEND his good name... One is hardly surprised by either the tactics used in persuing this, and could be reasonably concerned that if the example is taken as THESE GOALS imply, (and there are groups in Melbourne who are less than moderate) it would be reasonable to claim that this is not 'demonizing' but legitimate social commentary and a raising of public awareness. The goals do not state "as practiced by the holy prophet 'on his good days'.... It appears also that the Quranic injuction against murdering fellow human beings somehow escaped the attention of the one by whom these supposed revelations came and its tempting to ask "If he.... could/did not fulfill this, why should anyone else, and who is more ISLAMIC than the prophet of the religion ?

Guilty as charged, Boaz. I must confess I thought I had signalled it loudly enough as sarcasm, but in retrospect I can see that I wasn't blatant enough. Next time I'll remember and put a little note against it.

I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with your views on ozaware'as web site (he and I aren't talking 'cos of my sarcasm). I see only an amateurish, and very arrogant, piece of self-promotion. It is only half a step away from those tiny-blue-script letters that complain of voices and secret government conspiracies.

Have a great weekend.

Pericles
you too have a good one :)

I agree about getting some basics organized or sorted out as per your post on another topic I think.
Give me your thoughts on how u want to address that.

BOAZ_David, can you please email me at biblical_hermeneutics/at/yahoo.com (/at/ = @, of course).

AK