dmac, would you consider the witnesses supporting the Islamic side to be "independent"?

Big Al 30, not sure, but if they witnessed the event they are more likely to be independent then someone specifically brought into a trial by one side that is an ordained minister of that sides religion.

DMAC, Not necessarily. Depends why they were there. If they were sent to take notes and "spy" on the speakers, that's anything but independent. It is very difficult in a case like this to find someone really "independent". I wouldn't say "impossible" but very hard.

DMAC
to respond.. about 'should pastors be able to suggest Muslims will rape, torture, kill' Not really.. u and I are in agreement there. Its a bit over the top. What I would accept though, and this is very 'backed up' by their own traditions.. 1/ Mohammed is held up as a role model and 2/ He himself did torture some people who stole his camels and killed his shepherds. The torture being, to lop off their hands, and their feet, to gouge out their eyes, and leave them to die a slow death in the rocky desert heat. (Sahih Muslim Book 016, Number 4131) <== makes interesting reading. You can search that simply by entering 'sahih muslim' as key words in google. Read the whole gory section on Jihad..

So, to suggest Muslims might 'torture' is not as far fetched as it might sound, based on their own traditions. Personally.. when they are at just 2% of the population such a scenario would be pretty unlikely, but on the other hand.. it would not be the 'mainstream' muslims who do that.. it would the radicals.. as it always is. May I direct your attention to the recent murders of some coptic Christians.. throats cut etc... whole family.. and what did they do ? they were very active in chat rooms.. web sites.. personal opinions etc.. mostly with Muslims.

(Do a search on "New Jersey family slain") Do u remember the Dutch Film maker ? Critized Islam and is now dead. His star had to go into hiding for 2 months.. Remember Salman Rushdie ?

The pastors SHOULD have said.. 'the extreme element of Islam will most likely do such and such'.. did u know that one of the pastoral team of CTF had a) threats.. b) house burnt down ? All this is factual, and I haven't and wont suggest anyone go on an anti muslim hate spree. That would be both illegal and contrary to Scripture. I do take your point .. that 'this is what it is about' ..with the reservation that (and risking sounding like a broken record) it was an orchestrated deliberate attempt to silence them. I just read yesterday on the Lakemba Mosque site about 'ZIONIST THUGS' which alone is in clear breach of the Racial Discrimination Act. But I'd prefer that they had the freedom to 'show their colors' than have it silenced by sneaky Christians or Jews who infiltrated their meetings.
Keep up the comments :) jdrmot@bigpond.net.au If u want to further discuss this on a more personal level.

DMAC
one more. You said u read the Witness statement of Mark Durie. ? Did u note his assessment of the texts used in the curriculum in Islamic schools here ? and what they say about 'bringing in the Islamic state' ? If not, pls re-read, or contact me for a link to his statement. I would not suggest Mark is impartial, he is a Christian, and I'm quite sure supports the ministry of CTF, but his scholarship does not appear to be partial. He appears to have done a very cafeful study of the issue.
BOAZ

If we can't find someone "independent" we will probably have to settle for someone with "ethics and integrity".