But it is the Murdoch and Packer families that control much of the media in this country. Nobody remotely left-wing is in the Federal Cabinet (let alone the Prime Minister). Major corporations are either controlled by non-Australian, non-leftists or locals who are equally conservative. And the churches have the likes of George Pell and Peter Jensen in senior positions. That somehow left-wing "elites" that people like David Flint (David Flint!) go on about are in control of a cultural agenda is fanciful at best. Who is this "boisterous minority"? Most state and Commonwealth Governments have been in due to a majority vote so if left-wing policies come from them then the electorate has itself to blame. The only unelected groups with power in this country are, you guessed it, Packer and co (see above).

And Jimmy, when you refer to my vision of "family values" what are you talking about? I haven't even articulated my personal vision. All I've said is that the term can be used to cover some pretty nasty policies and some of the grossest hypocrisy on the political landscape.

"Socialist" and "left-wing" are obviously flexible terms. But it is interesting how big business supported Hitler in 1933 and Stalin crushed the left-wing of his party.

As for the American abolitionist movement, evangelicals were split into pro-slavery and anti-slavery factions. Effectively a right and a left.

Mike you seem to come from some weird universe where everything only happens in the US.
If you believe the US civil war was about slavery in the Commonwealth you have got things wrong. Apparently churches can’t be left wing as for all of them being against Southern Baptist were pro slavery in 1840 and some of them still are.
Hitler was not a left winger just read one of his speeches. Calling an apple a pear don’t make a pear.
The right wing gave us lots of wars to 100 years war, 30 years war, ww1, ww2, Vietnam (contrary to what you think it was a war of independence), Korean, untold millions to starvation and illness.
Yes women were given the vote in 1870 in Utah and it was taken away from them in 1887. The US were one of the last to allow women equal rights.
Communism is mans natural state ask a anthropologist it just don’t work very well when your commune gets so big you don’t know everyone about 150 people max.. Then again Mikey not every lefty is a marxist.
Lastly Mikey if you’re a Christian have a read of your bible, That Jesus fellow you guys are always on about lived in a commune when he was young he turned out all right didn't he.

Kenny, Let me guess. You're 80 years old and haven't realised the USSR is over. Do you still have your copy of Mao's little red book? Takes a while for you lefties to realise that social control doesn't work. Pack it in or take a job giving advice to the ALP.

David SJ, well you referred before to the “hypocrisy” of “family values” when referring to the Howard government’s view, thus I assumed you were questioning the general social conservative notion of family values. It is always difficult to discuss issues with such vague and unequivocal terms. You are totally right in saying it is a subjective set of values – its just the majority of Australians automatically link family values to social conservatism.

Kenny, smug sarcasm aside, your staunch leftist rhetoric makes you unable to see the inseparability of the totalitarianisms: Communism and Fascism. They both lead to the same thing: misery. Your sympathy for social engineering illustrates either a gross misconception of C20th history or an unyielding dedication to the vision of the “socialist man”. Do you go as far as to sympathise with Stalin’s social engineering in the Ukraine (via famine and mass violence) in the 1920s; Pol Pot’s “Year 0” vision or Ceausescu’s draconian program of human multiplicity?

Leftist social engineering, like Nazist Volksgemeinshaft, rendered truly disgusting effects. I suggest you go visit the societies and view the aftermath/tragedy wreaked by leftist social engineering before you go peddling its alleged successes.

You state “Communism is mans natural state” – well the collapse of Communism renders that lie exposed. If you hate the “tribulations, inequities and intolerance” etc etc of liberal democratic society so much, why not go take up residence with “Dear Leader” Kim Jong Il? Communistic philosophy always has - and inevitably will always – amount to human misery.