Hi Paul

Sorry, I'm finally getting round to answering your question.

I don’t know what plan Israel has for the Palestinian people. I suspect not many people do.

I imagine Israel for now will be focussed on a plan for the Israeli people, but that’s never going to work if it doesn’t provide a long-term solution to the plight of the Palestinians, too. Coming back to the article that began this thread, I support a two-state solution - as originally intended, with Palestine and Israel agreeing to recognise each other and co-exist peacefully. The article may be right that this is a long way off, with minimal support from either side at present, but things can change quickly in war. And I can’t think of any plausible better alternative.

If you had asked the question about Israel’s plans a few weeks ago, I’d have guessed it was to incapacitate Hamas, destroy its tunnels, weapons and infrastructure, free or negotiate the release of the hostages, and then return to something like the situation before October 2023, but with a changed administration in Gaza and even greater restrictions to try to prevent Hamas or its successor/s re-arming.

But since the targeted attacks on Hezbollah and its leaders and invasion of Lebanon, I’d guess it has a broader plan to more fundamentally shift the power balance in the Middle East. This is horribly risky, but it’s just possible it could lead to the best outcomes for the people not just of Israel but of Gaza, the Palestinian territories, Lebanon and even Iran and Syria

Hi Rhian,

"I (Rhian) don’t know what plan Israel has for the Palestinian people. I suspect not many people do."

I suspect members of the Israel war cabinet, Netanyahu, and the dominate radical right in Israel have a definite "plan" for the future of the Palestinian people. If its not complete genocide, which is unlikely to be achieved, its some plan where by the Palestinians will become an integrated underclass (slavish class) within a super state of Israeli, only existing to serve the Israelis. There will be no Palestinian state as such, many will simply join the already huge number of Palestinian refugees in the Middle East.

As for "song sheets" I don't consider the daily news coverage, or the UN reports and statements, reports from relief agencies, nor the words of Biden and other Western leaders as being part of the Hamas song sheet. On the other hand there is little independent evidence to support the Israeli spin on events.

The two state solution, unfortunate it is now becoming nothing more than "pissing in the wind" as the dominant Zionists will not accept it, they want nothing less than total control through a one state of greater Israel.

Just on the genocide of European Jewry by the Nazi's, who were in power for 12 years, with at least 4 years of total control of Europe. In that time the Nazi's developed a well documented plan/method for extermination, but given all that, they were only able to murder about 66% of the total Jewish population. It shows that complete genocide is a difficult thing to achieve, well it was for the Nazi's, and I suspect it will be just as difficult for the Zionists.

Dear Paul,

Netanyahu has no plan.
He can only think one day ahead, how to survive.
He is running for his life, like a mouse
or like Sinwar escaping from tunnel to tunnel,
trying to navigate the impossible maze of internal Israeli politics,
doing every possible dirty in the book and out of the book
so he can remain prime-minister and avoid prison.

For that he needs the smoke-screen of war.
Against whom? Doesn't matter, just as long as there is a war.
Win or lose? Neither, just have the war going for as long as possible.
Of course he doesn't care how many "Palestinians" are killed
- he doesn't care how many Israelis are killed either!
But he always needs some of them to remain alive, and armed,
never to burn the candle too quickly.

Two state solution?
He doesn't care whether it is one or two or three of four;
He doesn't care whether any state remains, including Israel;
It is the third word he dreads, only the third, in any shape or form!

Hi Paul

It was you who first used the term “song sheet”. My comments, like yours, reflect fairly common views in the mainstream media, which include a wide variety of opinions on this matter, some supporting your view, some mine.

Neither Biden nor any other western leader has accused Israel of genocide, and Biden has explicitly said Israel is not, and been highly critical of those making the accusation. He has repeatedly supported Israel’s right to defend itself, while calling for restraint and working towards a ceasefire. So you are wrong to say Biden and western leaders support your position on genocide.

The United Nations has proven hopelessly biased and incompetent in this conflict, and it has a long and shameful history of blatant bias against Israel. Some of its personnel almost certainly participated in the October 7 atrocities. I do not regard it as a credible independent authority in this conflict.

The Nazis didn’t ever control all of Europe, and they didn’t decide on the “final solution” until 1941. Systematic genocide using gas chambers peaked between 1942 and 1944, by which time either the Allies were liberating camps or the Germans were blowing up gas chambers before the Allies could find them. And the process was difficult and complex - Jews had to be transported from all over occupied Europe to death camps. If Israel wanted to commit genocide in Gaza, the task would be far easier. The numbers involved are much smaller, and the population is conveniently concentrated.

Two-thirds of Europe’s Jews died in the Holocaust. Less then 2% of Gaza’s population has died in this conflict, according to the Gaza Health Ministry

Hi Rhian,

Been a good discussion between us on this terrible subject. I didn't mean anything nasty with the use of the words "song sheet", just a convenient way of putting things. The words of Hamas are not worth "a pint of piss" but the number of dead civilians (40,000 plus) is irrefutable. On UN involvement October 7th, seems there were a few low level personnel, a couple of labourers, UN employed Palestinians, a couple of many involved, but that doesn't indicate UN sanctioned involvement by anyone, certainly not high ranking officials, there was no UN plan of involvement.

"Neither Biden nor any other western leader has accused Israel of genocide" I didn't say they had, however they have been in some instance highly critical (something you don't see with Ukraine) of Israeli action.

The Nazi Holocaust is histories best example of a determined and organised attempt to eradicate a race of people on a massive scale. But as I said they achieved a figure of 66%. That only demonstrates how difficult it is to undertake a program of total genocide.

Hi Yuyutsu,

What you say about Netanyahu, he is a puppet under the control of the Zionist radical right in Israel. More dead Israelis simply helps him personally and politically. Did you see the Jewish settlers eyeing off (from 6 miles away) Gaze, they plan to create new settlements in Gaze when the future opportunity. One woman with an American accent when asked about the massive death toll of Palestinians, she thought it was all "very good"...more the better, so it seems.

Hi Paul

I didn’t take the “song sheet” comment as nasty, just pointed out that some of the authorities you cited are singing a very different tune to yours.

Otherwise, we wind up our conversation with some agreement.

The death toll is horrible, and I don’t dispute the number. I have seen arguments that it may be higher or lower, and I suspect the number will turn out to be higher – there may be many unaccounted for under the rubble of the early stages of the war.

I also agree that the UN participants in the 7 October attacks were relatively low-level employees acting without official sanction. It still points, though, to the organisation’s culture and ideological orientation (not many would-be genocidal rapists would go unnoticed in the staff of other organisations with such sensitive roles, even relatively junior employees), as does the fact that UNRWA schools and its Gaza HQ have been used as shields for Hamas facilities and personnel (though the UN claims it didn’t know they were there)