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The Forum > Article Comments > Should NATO enter the Russian-Ukrainian fray? > Comments

Should NATO enter the Russian-Ukrainian fray? : Comments

By Alon Ben-Meir, published 25/3/2022

It is hard to describe the excruciatingly painful destruction Putin is inflicting on Ukraine.

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You'd sell the Ukrainians out to appease evil?

The things you hope Russia would abide are totally unrealistic. A bully will keep up his aggression till he is confronted with the superior force of a stronger opponent.

'many Russians believe (Ukraine) to be historically, culturally, and linguistically part of Russia.'

Utter Rubbish! Just repeating Russian propaganda.
Facts:
1. The Ukrainians sided with the German's in WW2, to throw off the Russian communist dominance of the Ukraine.

2. The Russians attempted a genocide by starvation of the Ukraine after WW2.

Putin won't become any of the things you hope he will UNLESS Nato, including the weakling Biden, go to war against Russia. Anything less than that Putin will see as weakness and will simply continue his bullying.

What are you going to say when the Ukrainians start bombarding Crimea, Belarus and Russia?
Are you going to tell them they are inciting Russia to use nukes and are starting WW3?

The only thing being learned here is the wests' leaders are gutless cowards and, as usual, bullys are only stopped by strength ... not the bleatings of a bunch of people all behaving cowardly.

We should all declare war and go to war against the Russians, today.

The Chinese would s... themselves.
Posted by imajulianutter, Friday, 25 March 2022 9:10:30 AM
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Lord protects us from armchair warriors.

NATO exists to protect countries who are members. Not in the club, paying your dues? No benefits.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 March 2022 9:17:18 AM
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We need to at least do what is asked, a no fly zone and 1% of NATOs tanks and planes!

If we don't stop Putin now in the Ukraine, we will have to sooner or later elsewhere! And later will be far costly in men and materials.

Further, non aligned countries like Finland and Sweden need to be offered NATO membership TODAY!

NATO needs to show intent and a an unqualified commitment to the defense of an enabled Ukraine in the supply of logistics, military advisors and high tech weapons!

Preferably before Ukraine is reduced to sticks and stones to defend itself with against an entirely unprovoked invasion!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 25 March 2022 10:06:47 AM
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Yes, armchair warriors and plenty of retired generals calling for more assistance. Seeing the Russian army level cities, murder and kidnap tens of thousands of civilians, all in an unprovoked invasion, is upsetting to many. The Ukranians have the weapons to engage the Russian army, but they are prevented from coordinating large attacks by a lack of air defences. The kamikaze drones will help, especially in disrupting supply lines, but the Ukranians need a lot more of them as well as the longer range armour destroying variant. If they have these they will be able to destroy the Russians more quickly and will save tens of thousands of Ukranian lives. The good news now is that the crime is so big that not even Putin's controlled media can hide the mess from Russian citizens. Putin is finished.
Posted by Fester, Friday, 25 March 2022 10:19:53 AM
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How about surrender and talking? Wouldn't that be better than having your country reduced to rubble and your people slaughtered? Or, are we back to the hairy chested days of the Cold War: 'better dead than Red', of Russian, since they are no longer red.

The lunatics talking about topping Putin might just be looking at the wrong president.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 March 2022 11:12:15 AM
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Clearly ttbn does not understand what surrender means to free Ukrainians means, i.e., a return to being slaves used by the Russians as human horses!

He should have the courage of his pro Russian convictions and go to Kiev and suggest they surrender in the first person! And be prepared for a very warm welcome as crowds mob him with a fury only free Ukrainians could demonstrate!

Far better to die on your feet fighting for your freedom than on your knees begging for it!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 25 March 2022 11:33:10 AM
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I am one who has kept an eye on the situation in Ukraine in Ukraine since the US sponsored coup in 2014 on Russian Federation and especially alternative news sources from the US, which includes articles from informed insiders who are often the most scathing about what their own and other western governments get up to. Those whose knowledge of the issue is basically from the Western mainstream media, which seems to include author of article obviously have little idea of the half truths, lies and spin it has been peddling. The Russians are obviously winning the physical war but are very far behind in the west regarding propaganda war. For a start, re all the claims about their military action being supposedly unjustified, many people believe this because they know little or nothing about all the background story details. The action Vladimir Putin was authorised by the Russian Parliament to initiate seemed "just in time" before the Ukrainian government launched a full scale invasion against the so called "rebels" in Eastern Ukraine who declared independence from Kiev because they did not want to be ruled by the US installed puppet regime there. They had been subjected to a terror type war for the last 8 years which has resulted in around 14,000 people killed with the Ukrainian government ignoring Minsk peace agreements and hoping to retake the area by force. Russia recognised the states of Donetsk and Lugansk after their Presidents ASKED for help. Now is working with their militaries get the basically Western sponsored Ukrainian forces out. The stated aims of Russia is for independence of largely ethnic Russian areas from the rest of Ukraine and guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO. Of which effective purpose has long been to keep the US in Europe, Russia out and Germany down. Seems now the Russian Federation does not want to take over areas where locals do not want it to - including in other former Soviet Union states.
Posted by mox, Friday, 25 March 2022 11:34:47 AM
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I think Putin waited until he was sure 'the west' wouldn't interfere with his planned invasion of Ukraine.
The fact that he also avoided conflict during the 'games' shows he is trying to keep China 'on side'.
No logical person wants to pursue a policy of force to deal with this matter?
The idea of 'war at any cost' is for comic books only?
But in this case, a limit has been reached?
People can no longer stand by and allow death and destruction in Ukraine to continue?
And the following fact is as true now as it ever was.
That a stitch in time does save nine.
Far less costly to stop the nonsense now than wait for it to grow out of control.
All thinking leaders should consider taking positive steps NOW?
And I don't mean out the door to the nearest bomb shelter.
Posted by Ipso Fatso, Friday, 25 March 2022 11:45:09 AM
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The Ukraine war and the actions of Russia are none of our business.
Both are two of the most corrupt regimes in Europe.
And we in Australia don’t need their corrupted refugees either.
We need to attend to our own refugees as a priority, them being the homeless looking for non existent social housing.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 25 March 2022 11:52:52 AM
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There, there ttbn

No need to sink to the level of personally abusing someone pointing out truth.

Why can't you be decent and adult instead. Try arguing the point? Too hard for you?

Hiding behind the rules of Nato doesn't excuse taking no action against a cowardly aggressor.

An aggressor bully you should note is being beaten back by the simple determination and unity of people with courage.

You, like Nato should admit and support that.

What's wrong with you?
'How about surrender and talking?'
Putin and his stupid supporters are too stupid to see that's what he needs to do.

There you go again, Wrong.

Fact: During the Cold War there were no hot wars in Europe and it was ended by the Courage of a US President. The evil USSR crumbled and the nations they subjugated in East Europe chose Liberal Democracy ... stupid ... to see anything else as truth ... is self evident stupidity.

And while Zelensk is in the middle of a war zone, he is with his friends, Putin is among enemies in Moscow.

Alan,
Tanks are not needed, in defence. They are needed for attack.

They can't get the 39 migs they've already asked for.

The Ukrainians have already stopped Putin. He can't go anywhere else. He's stuffed. His response is to kill civilians and destroy their community infrastructure. We should stop that.

Nato should show courage. They have a leadership problem.

Russia will be thrown back. Now tell me Alan what are you and the nato courageless going to do when Ukraine starts attacking emplacements in Belarus, Crimea and Russia.

Do you think the Ukrainians should make a deal with the Russians as Biden and the White House want them to do? And have worked for in the last week.

Simply utterly gutless.

Fester

Dead right. Watch out you'll be abused in here.
Posted by imajulianutter, Friday, 25 March 2022 12:04:57 PM
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Well said Ipso facto.

Jesus Diver that's what my grandad said about Europe in 1915, and as a leader in the anti conscription riots in NZ he was jailed.
be careful now.
Posted by imajulianutter, Friday, 25 March 2022 12:09:36 PM
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Alan,

Don't get too silly, old fella. I am not pro-Russian; I'm pro human life and pro common sense. It's all very well for you to say "Far better to die on your feet fighting for your freedom than on your knees begging for it!" You are not in Ukraine doing the fighting, and you are at the end of your own life. I could tell you why your comments about Russian culture are completely off the wall, but you don't listen, so I am not going to bother.

Dan,

I agree. None of our business.

Nutter,

What an appropriate name you chose for yourself. With so little self-respect, heavens knows what people who know you must think of you. I have not abused anyone on this thread, but I will change that by calling you a nincompoop. Like most people ignorant of Russia, Russians, Ukranians, and just about everyone and everything, you couldn't find your arse with both hands.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 March 2022 12:40:07 PM
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I’m always careful, more careful than most, but I won’t compromise my morality.
I’m also a student of history, and that knowledge tells me where that part of the world stands historically. Only fools involve themselves with their stupid is as stupid does.

And I also stand besidebmy comment on Ukrainian refugees. This our own country, is in the midst of a housing crisis which is being dealt with by the landed political classes with their ideology of silence.

There is a critical housing shortage which has driven real estate values to unprecedented heights, forcing an exclusionary nightmare on swathes of our local population.
Adding unreliable bludging refugees into this mix is unwise and uncaring actually.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 25 March 2022 12:42:01 PM
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I know people like to let off steam, but really now?
Can we not express opinions without being overly personal?
Can we not 'focus on the matter at hand', without meandering away?
However, I do remember a government spokesperson saying that 'robust debate' in parliament is a good thing.
Perhaps we can view these variations as 'robustness', and applaud them?
Posted by Ipso Fatso, Friday, 25 March 2022 1:20:49 PM
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The article like most of the waffle from the lame stream "meeja" sticks to a deceptive narrative that some, including mox have unmasked: such articles mostly in the NYT, WashPost, Fairfax Media etc (a) think the concept of war is history (when the means by which we prosecuted wars should be history); (b) claim that if NATO takes the fight to Putin, then a greater conflict will ensue (with more loss of lives) and (c) assert that only NATO members will be defended by NATO.

These assumptions are so asinine as they barely justify a reply. But here goes:

1. The "war criminal" in this case, the person whose actions have led to the slaughter of countless Ukrainians, the devastation of their homeland and should be hauled by the scruff of his expensive collared shirt to The Hague is of course Joe Biden. He and he alone could have prevented this awful conflict by telling Vlad early on that "under no circumstances will Ukraine join NATO". But he failed to do so. Once again the clown (Biden) has no shame. No surprise really. His mentor, Barrack Obama after all ceded Syria to Putin;

2. Those that argue that taking the war to Putin (eg Fairfax) obviously never learned the lessons Winston Churchill imparted on a Britain drugged by the toxin of appeasement. Never forget that but for Winny and Comrade Stalin both infusing their peoples with courage, grit and understanding their decisions will change the course of history, Europe would now be enslaved and toiling under the Nazi yoke. We here would be little more than the largest island in the Japanese empire.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Friday, 25 March 2022 2:10:43 PM
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continued

3. The fact that a nation whose geography would add significantly to the depth of NATO's strategic posture and that desperately wanted to join NATO, was poorly served by Bruxelles: pre-invasion and post;

4.The great fiction of course is that NATO will defend, only defend, its members if attacked. Really? Does anyone think the chaps in Vilnius or Tallin are deluded to think that Portuguese, Spanish, French and Greek mothers will willingly allow their sons and daughters to fight and perhaps die for some Baltic nation that Russia could overcome between the ad breaks on "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" broadcasted on Channel One Russia?
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Friday, 25 March 2022 2:12:45 PM
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Agree with you again, Dan. No refugees. That we can look after and defend ourselves is increasingly doubtful. Paying for arms for Ukraine when we are not arming ourselves. How bloody stupid is our government. Australia is no world policeman. Even the U.S has retired from that role.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 25 March 2022 2:33:51 PM
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I am reasonably sure that a thread of truth runs through all the news we hear about Ukraine.
I don't think news outlets are making it all up to enhance sales.
I am equally sure they are ready to embellish the truth with a glossy coating, to enhance its appeal to readers.
That being said, I think there is unconscionable mischief being done to the Ukraine.
The children especially are being subjected to appalling episodes of unwarranted violence.
When we become aware of this, surely it is normal to want to stop the fighting by any reasonable means?
Many from the west have gone there to be supportive, and give what help they can.
Although it is not necessarily the duty of other countries to intervene, it can certainly be in their long term interest to do so.
I hate the thought that when someone starts a 'commotion' like this, many 'innocent' persons will be drawn in, and suffer as a result.
Ever has it been thus with human behaviour?
Somehow, somewhere, someone loses track of reality, and gets a bee in his bonnet about something.
And then adds violence to the mix to achieve his desired goal.
I still think the remedy will come from 'within'.
Alarmed by where it is all going, influential persons will draw the line, and curtail the aggression?
Posted by Ipso Fatso, Friday, 25 March 2022 3:14:13 PM
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The Ivans are being ground down. It is only a matter of time before the ex-communist forces are destroyed and have to retreat.
Posted by shadowminister, Friday, 25 March 2022 3:24:38 PM
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When we (well some) say NATO should get involved via a No-Fly Zone or actual boots on the ground, it ought to be remembered that its really the US who would do that. The rest of NATO really isn't in a position to take on the Russia air defences.

And when we talk of the US doing it, remember its the lower class youth of America who'll do it. The kids of the ruling class won't be putting their lives on the line. So yet again, the deplorables will be called on the do the elite's bidding. It was these people who Trump sought to protect as he instituted America First.

While Russia's imperialism is of concern to the world, or ought to be, its not clear why the US needs to do more than its currently doing to address that. We are all (or most) barracking for the david in this fight, but apart from passing him some rocks for his sling, we (specifically the US) don't need to join the fight. The fall of Ukraine (if it happens) will be sad, but Europe and NATO will emerge from this strengthened and Russia immeasurably weakened, no matter what happens from here on.

It is now abundantly clear that the Russian military is utterly incapable of credibly threatening any NATO country short of reverting to the nuclear threat.

Spilling US blood to save Ukraine probably seems fine for those completely removed from the event. But why a kid from Ohio needs to die for a kid in Odessa is unclear.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 25 March 2022 3:34:43 PM
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Putin was evil, is evil and always will be evil.
We would be much better off without him.
The question is how?
Posted by ateday, Friday, 25 March 2022 3:44:03 PM
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This Ukrainian situation is a perfect example of what happens when you let too many of a different ethnicity into your country. Too many ethnic Russians in parts of the Ukrainian, & they want to partition the country & declare their part independent.

When the Ukrainian says no, they start a war, then call on their mother country they never stopped wanting to come & help.

This is the perfect warning for us to stop migration dead, & most definitely not let in any more Refugees. The whole Balkans mess is due to ethnic mixing where it is not wanted by the majority. It is a recipe for disaster & we are setting ourselves up for the same problems here. In fact we now have no go zones for the cops due to religious garbage, & need to wake up. Go woke on refugees & end up with rival gangs staking out territories, then growing to wanting independence.

We need to jump right now on politicians who want to use migration to ease the economic mess they have got us into, & the woke who want to be kind to every useless rabble they can find.

The very last thing we [the west in general] need to do, is to get involved in a typical Balkans mess. We need to do keep our powder dry, ready for the Chinese assault which is coming sooner or later.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 25 March 2022 3:45:47 PM
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Ipso

The line has been drawn ... by the Ukrainians.
Ever dealt with a bully? They don't stop until someone stands up to them.
The Ukrainians are doing that to the Russians.

Jonathan
Asinine is too mild, and probably not understood by those you are addressing. Mindless, utter stupidity has a ring closer to truth, which probably has a mild chance of recognition.

ttbn
there you go again. More abuse. Why don't your just address the issue and prove or justify your view.

Too hard?

Well here is the perfect opportunity to demonstrate your 'grasp' of things Russian. In fact I am definitely calling on you to show us your great and in depth knowledge of Russian culture, as you bragged in your putdown of Alan: 'I could tell you why your comments about Russian culture are completely off the wall',

I'd also like you to point to the comments Alan made that inspired your boast.

I'm listening. hohohoho this will show exactly what you are.
Posted by imajulianutter, Friday, 25 March 2022 4:00:23 PM
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I suspect you may find that the Ethnic Ruskies were sent into Ukraine by the Soviets, no voluntary situation at all, as was the situation in many other Soviet countries. The same situation is now taking place in western China as it was in Tibet. The idea obviously is to build up a large population so as to be able to outnumber the original peoples. Bingo! look there are now more of us so its ours and we shall do what we wish.
But people have always moved around within any continent over all of our 3.5 million years of existence well before borders came into existence.
Posted by ateday, Friday, 25 March 2022 4:06:07 PM
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The sacking of Constantinople 1204 and its legacy today as a reminder to Russia and Ukraine alike, that history doesn’t deal kindly to the stupid of greed.

*…Eight hundred years after the Fourth Crusade, Pope John Paul II twice expressed sorrow for the events of the Fourth Crusade. In 2001 he wrote to Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens, saying, "It is tragic that the assailants, who set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret."[21] In 2004, while Bartholomew I, Patriarch of Constantinople, was visiting the Vatican, John Paul II asked, "How can we not share, at a distance of eight centuries, the pain and disgust?"[22][23] This has been regarded by some as an apology to the Greek Orthodox Church for the slaughter perpetrated by the warriors of the Fourth Crusade.[1]: xiii 

In April 2004, in a speech on the 800th anniversary of the capture of the city, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I formally accepted the apology. "The spirit of reconciliation is stronger than hatred," he said during a liturgy attended by Roman Catholic Archbishop Philippe Barbarin of Lyon, France. "We receive with gratitude and respect your cordial gesture for the tragic events of the Fourth Crusade. It is a fact that a crime was committed here in the city 800 years ago." Bartholomew said his acceptance came in the spirit of Pascha. "The spirit of reconciliation of the resurrection... incites us toward reconciliation of our churches…* Wikipedia.

Both Russia and Ukraine are United in a common religion.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 25 March 2022 4:52:42 PM
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Suppose Ukraine falls, is completely destroyed and all Ukrainian people killed - America would still survive.

But Australia would not!

NATO will end up doing what is good for NATO.
America will end up doing what is good for America.
But Australia must do what is good for Australia - for it is our lives that hang in the balance, not only Ukrainian lives.

From an Australian viewpoint, the war in Ukraine is a test case.
Xi sits and watches this trillion-dollar question: "can one in the 21st century gain by sheer violence?" - and if the answer is found to be 'Yes', then he will do the same: first Taiwan and then Australia and Japan, not yet clear in which exact order so we are either 3rd or 4th in line. Ukraine is our front line: unless we stop Putin there, it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to stop Xi here.

But not only XI - we also watch: we must know, the sooner the better, whether America has any backbone, whether there is a chance that they will come to save us when China invades, or perhaps they couldn't care less about us either.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 25 March 2022 6:13:14 PM
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"The Russians are obviously winning the physical war"

Gee Mox, another commie mouthpiece I see. No, the Russians are getting killed when they face the Ukranian army, so instead they prefer to murder women, kids, the elderly and infirm, as well as making cities look like they have been nuked. Indeed, the Russian army are the biggest perpetrators of war crimes since the Nazis. I hope the sanctions remain until the perpetrators of these war crimes are convicted. Here is a recent report of a recent battle:

"Ukrainian soldiers repulsed five attacks by Russian fascist troops. As a result of battles the following was destroyed: up to 130 personnel, 9 tanks, 1 armored personnel carrier, 6 infantry fighting vehicles, 5 self-propelled howitzers and artillery guns, 8 ATs (grenade launchers- ed.), and 1 UR-77 (Soviet self-propelled jet installation). Another batch of Russian fascist evil is already burning in hell. You will not be forgiven, and all crimes will be punished," the statement said.
Posted by Fester, Friday, 25 March 2022 6:54:05 PM
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Note how Fester has resorted to name calling against me to try and detract from not liking some news and views I posted. Is one of those who has been brainwashed by the Western mainstream media on the Ukraine issue to the extent that does not want to listen to, let alone consider reports from alternative sources. The Western MSM has been crowing loudly about Russian losses and trying to play down what it has achieved subduing the Ukrainian military within a month. Then regular update of all the Ukrainian hardware and facilities indicates their losses are far more than those of Russians who have a lot more sophisticated equipment. . Note the Ukrainian Navy was quickly made non functional at start of hostilities before its planned amphibious attack of Donetsk area and Russian Navy effectively has full control of sea along Ukrainian coastline. In the early days, a lot of Ukrainian military targets were destroyed. Seems Russian military casualties were rather high then because of their policy of trying to minimise damage to civilians and also hitting "soft spots" behind enemy lines rather that confronting large forces "head on". Not like common Yank approach. ie Bomb and shoot up in a big way first. Then Russian army- and those of Donetsk and Lugansk have a significant problem with the Ukrainian neo Nazi Azov regiment types especially using civilians as shields. Note some claims of Russian strikes on civilian targets have proven to be on military ones. Such as a hospital in Mariupol where doctors, nurses and patients had recently been moved out so it could be used as a military headquarters. Anyway, seems the longer Ukrainian government - pushed by the US "Deep State" continues this war, the more casualties and destruction and also the more territory than will be taken out of Kiev government control. Seems basically the Donbass region which has for 8 years been fighting for independence and the strongly ethnic Russian section of the coast between Crimea and Romania.
Posted by mox, Friday, 25 March 2022 10:04:20 PM
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Mox

I hope you wont have to be an apologist for war criminals for much longer. I hope the FSB has the balls to kill Putin. It will save tens of thousands of lives on both sides. I believe Russian citizens would be every bit as horrified as people elsewhere in the world if they knew what was going on, and they are slowly finding out.
Posted by Fester, Friday, 25 March 2022 10:32:20 PM
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"Seems Russian military casualties were rather high then because of their policy of trying to minimise damage to civilians and also hitting "soft spots" behind enemy lines rather that confronting large forces "head on"."

Gosh Mox, that reminds me of the nonsense spouted by Comical Ali. What happens is that when the Russian army tries to attack Ukranian forces their tanks get blown up, for example like this,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw6AUbHrx34

which causes the Russian attackers to retreat and conduct war crimes like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV0HgDRw2co

Leveling villages and cities and murdering civilians is not harm minimisation. It is war crime. I believe the daughter of Lavrov's mistress is living the high life in London. Where did the money come from?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvnan5/polina-kovaleva-sanctioned-sergey-lavrov
Posted by Fester, Saturday, 26 March 2022 5:41:05 AM
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The persistence by Fester at pushing viewpoints peddled by the western mainstream media and apparently not looking for and checking information from other sources before trying to figure out the latest as to what has really been going on seems an example of the quote. "Illiteracy in the 21st Century is not people who cannot read or write. It is those who resist unlearning lies they have been brainwashed to believe." Also, another related to the US especially: "The difference between what the United States government does in other countries and what the majority of American people THINK it does is one of the greatest propaganda achievements". Regarding the present situation in Ukraine, many obviously not not recognize or acknowledge that the main background cause of the problem has been US meddling in internal affairs of another country
Posted by mox, Saturday, 26 March 2022 8:33:16 AM
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Who is the arrogant prat who thinks he, she or it can change the definition of 'illiteracy', I wonder. Somebody like some of the people here barking about things that they are totally ignorant of, and have no stake in.

Russia/Ukraine has nothing to do with us; none of our business. Our business is with China, and its latest move to get a military base, in the Solomons, 1,700kms from and within missile range, from our east coast - including the ADF base at Townsville - and the same coast our boofhead Prime Minister is talking about having submarine bases. He doesn't say whether the bases are for nuclear submarines, the first of which we might have in 20 years time, or the 6 neglected, not even talked about, Collins we already have and will most likely have to rely on when and if China becomes even more aggressive.

Forget Ukraine, and ponder the fact that if we are attacked, you won't be able to scuttle off, by train, to another country like they can in Ukraine. We live on an island with no chance of getting energy or anything else from neighbours, as per landlocked European countries.

The only people who have posted on this thread if the brown stuff did hit the fan who I would want anywhere near me are Dan and Hasbeen. The rest of the comments reflect a childish naivety about the real world.u
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 26 March 2022 10:04:18 AM
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Tanks can defend, given attack is the best form of defense. We are at the risk as the Ukraine and for the same reason, i.e., divide and rule politics. Setting brother against brother, son against father etc.

When what we need is a strong leader able to restore our former unity. Like what was the norm here before post war European migration!

I agree with those who would severely limit migration to at least ensure we import folk who are similar in cultural their norms and easily assimilate.

What doesn't work are ghettos that stand apart and are offended by our cultural mores! And I dare say Ukrainians would be a far better fit, culturally and religiously, than most middle eastern countries.

The Russian attack must be driven back at whatever cost! And a then disgraced Putin removed from power and sent to an asylum where he, like any other incurable madman belongs!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 26 March 2022 10:20:05 AM
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Yuyutsu you wrote

America will end up doing what is good for America

I doubt the odour of appeasement wafting from the White House is "good for America".
It may be "good" for the weak kneed pen pushers in the leftist administration or "good" for those who care little for America's word, which has been broken time and time again.

What would have been "good" for America would be honouring the 1991 understanding with the disintegrating Soviet Union. But just like Reagan's Sec of Defence, Caspar Weinberger lied, so did George W.H. Bush and his team lied. They thought they could rub the Soviets' noses in their defeat and that there would be no consequences.

More fool them.

This conflict will end with Putin consolidating his control of Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk and seizing another slice of Ukraine, so as to save face.
As for the appeaser, Biden, it will end with a catastrophe at the mid term elections later this year.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Saturday, 26 March 2022 10:33:56 AM
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A serious part of the problem is the wests continuing dependance on fossil fuels. And need to find alternatives, like yesterday! And that rational applies equally to us and our insane economic dependance on China! And our equally insane dependance on coal.

We need to become China's worst nightmare if she decides to acquire Australian territory/resources! To that end we need to adopt nuclear power and acquire nuclear weapons. We need a revived manufacturing sector and the self reliance it alone can confer.

To that end we need MSR thorium and power prices as low as 1 cent PKWH. And that means excluding all the paper shuffling, profit demanding private and public middle men and energy barons from any part of the supply chain! Which should be operated by competing for your energy dollar by energy co-ops!

After than we need a completely revised tax system that would be unavoidable. Say like a flat tax set at 15% above a generous tax free threshold that applies to all income earned or garnered here.

With those reforms done and dusted! Allow all investments that come with a local HQ and cooperative capitalism! What we don't need is tax avoidance and current profit repatriation, i.e., current practice!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 26 March 2022 10:49:53 AM
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There is an awful lot of misinformation coming out of this war zone.

Evidently when the Russians set up a withdrawal corridor for civilians to leave contested areas, Ukrainian irregulars have seen this as a target too good to resist. They have mixed with those withdrawing & taken the opportunity to kill the Russians overseeing the withdrawal. When the Russians retaliate they are accused of killing unarmed civilians.

This is pretty much the situation our troops had in Vietnam & Afghanistan, Where peaceful villagers pull out a gun & shoot you in the back as you leave.

Being kind to civilians can get a soldier killed very quickly. It does not take seeing too many mates killed this way for troops to stop being kind.

This little nasty war is pert of the ongoing fight for control of the Balkans that is centuries old, a result of too many ethnicities jammed into too small an area. It will not be the last.

The victors today will be the refugees in a decade or two, & we should have no part in it. The story of "The Charge of the Light Brigade" came from another such nasty little war there, proving how senseless the thing is, & will be repeated many times again.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 26 March 2022 12:29:00 PM
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I think this much is obvious.
NATO is not frightened of Russia.
It is not cowering in the corner with covered head.
It IS responding to the threat posed by russia's destructiveness inside Ukraine.
Not by a show of force, for a more subtle approach is needed?
It is treating the russian leadership rather like a bolting horse with the bit between its teeth?
Unpredicable, and potentially dangerous.
That is the assessment?
So the response is cautious and measured.
No sudden movement to cause alarm.
Tighten the screws gradually.
Do things like the tortoise, not like the hare.
Slow the bolting horse by introducing small obstacles in to its path.
This will allow time to make changes to the way trade is realised with russia.
Reliance on certain russian technology and goods can be reduced significantly?
Some don't agree with this approach?
They would prefer the conflict to be dynamic and overt?
Armchair critics do like something to get their teeth in to.

Their is also the hope that those close to the leadership will notice their plush existence crumbling about them.
Those same persons might see the writing on the wall?
They would then move to change leadership and stop the aggression?
We should note that the present leadership discreetly encourages Mr T. to weaken and destroy the US of A?
So they are familiar with remote manipulation.
Posted by Ipso Fatso, Saturday, 26 March 2022 3:00:08 PM
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! maji chini ya daraja daima ni muhimu ! :-)

History is a great tool, and too often ingloriously repeats itself!

How dumb to ban Russian literature and music at this time. We again shoot ourselves in the foot!

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 26 March 2022 3:00:48 PM
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Interesting take Hasbeen, but the brutality of the Russian army is well established. No surprise to see people forcibly expatriated to Russia, nor is the plight of this young girl:

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/25/ukraine-childrens-hospital-lead-watson-pkg-vpx.cnn

You condemn the Balkans by its history and would seem to deny them the opportunity to change. The resistance of the Ukranians, determined to keep their liberal democracy, enabled with western assistance and sanctions, might yet lead to some positive changes. Putin is a fool to leave his army there as it is being both destroyed and shown up as being not the sharp weapon of terror it once was. How stable will his cleptocratic autocracy and puppet regimes be if the tragedy continues? Plenty on the Russian gravy train are very annoyed by the unnecessary curtailment of their lifestyles. Putin should watch his back.
Posted by Fester, Saturday, 26 March 2022 3:26:43 PM
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The debacle that the Russian invasion has become shows that, ultimately, Russia is no threat to any NATO country. The Russian forces have been shown to be incompetently lead with low moral and equipment that is poorly maintained and outdated. They might eventually defeat a much smaller force with overwhelming numbers, but we can now see that they are not in any position to take on any NATO nation.

The longer term implications of this is that it may well accelerate the withdrawal of the US from Europe as it is now clear that if the Europeans themselves indeed spend their 2% of GDP on their military they won't need US help to withstand any Russian assault.

For the US, they have no geopolitical reason to involve themselves in the conflict. Sure they can supply the Ukrainians just to make life even more difficult for the Russian aggressors. but the final outcome of conflict doesn't concern US national interests.

Therefore there is no reason why a kid from Ohio ought to be asked to risk his life to save the life or liberty of a kid from Odessa.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 26 March 2022 3:27:05 PM
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"You condemn the Balkans by its history and would seem to deny them the opportunity to change". Fester.

No Fester I deny them nothing, but it is up to the people of the Balkans to start treating each other a little more kindly, & sort their problems themselves. Democracy can not enforced, it must be sort, proven a number of times recently. Hundreds of years of hatred between groups, is a pretty poor base to start from, but they have no other choice, it is start to work together, or continue killing each other. That is one thing they have become very good at. It would take real effort, hard to raise when distrust is the first thought.

We are on the slippery slope already to a similar problem.

Many of us no longer trust the medical profession with good cause after Covid bulldust.

Many no longer trust scientists or academics, after the global warming scam, & covid bulldust. Of course none of us trust politicians or used car salesmen, also all with good cause.

There are many suburbs in our larger cities where it is unsafe for various ethnics to venture, particularly after sun set. Mix & match may be a great idea for womens fashion, but is a bad idea when it comes to populations.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 26 March 2022 8:29:34 PM
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You’ve made some solid and valid points the last couple of posts Hasbeen .

Mayhem is an inherited trait instilled by a long history: Effectively it’s called historic trauma.
If there were a nut house big enough to house the Russians and Ukrainians it’d be problem solved.

Unfortunately, your right again. If there is a wrong way to go about this issue, our moronic dumb collective of Politicians will leave no stone unturned to discover it.
But it’s not them that will pay the price is it.

I’ve got a huge sinking feeling “ Here we go again”!

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 26 March 2022 9:13:31 PM
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Ahhh ttbn

I knew two things about you that you've now proved

1. Your boast about your grand knowledge of Russian and Ukrainian culture was an idle boast.
You are totally ignorant of that subject.

2. You've exposed a complete ignorance of tha Australian / SE Asian geography and political history.

If you did you'd understand exactly why it is impossible for China to invade Australia.

It's the same reasons the Russians failed in their attempt to take,Kyiv, decapitate the Leadership and steamroll through the rest of the Ukraine.

Simply the LOGISTICIAL organisation is impossible. The Russian because of incompetence and determined opposition. The Chinese because of distance and determined and organised opposition. That is our history. The Chinese cannot even take Taiwan. It's logistically impossible. There are too few landing sites on Taiwan's coast.

So keep bleating.

ps Russia is now claiming its first objectives in Ukraine have been met and now it is turning to its second; The Dondas Region.

What a joke.
Posted by imajulianutter, Saturday, 26 March 2022 9:39:02 PM
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Regarding the claim above about the Russians failing to take Kyiv, I doubt they intended to. Remember the reason for the military action is to help the people of the Donbass region of Eastern Ukraine who declared themselves independent in 2014 get rid of Ukrainians who have been trying to retake the area by force with continued artillery and rocket bombardment and obviously planned a blitz type attack soon. The Ukrainian military have been well "dug in" in about half of the territory claimed by republics of Donetsk and Lugansk. As well as helping local defender militias, from the start Russian military has engaged in destroying targets with military significance elsewhere in Ukraine. Largely to greatly reduce the backup support for troops in Donbass and also keep a lot around Kyiv to defend it. Ukraine now has lost its Navy and most offensive air force capability from Russian action. Troops on the ground have been largely divided into chunks with often limited capacity to help each other. Then are easier to defeat or more inclined to surrender when they run short of food, fuel and ammo. Looks to me that Russians want to keep up military action until threats to Donetsk and Lugansk are permanently stopped and probably they control all the coastal districts from Crimea to Romania, which seems largely ethnic Russian sympathetic. May take some time to flush out Azov regiment neo Nazi Ukrainian types there in cities especially. Would be a land link to Transnistria, a strip in Moldova along Ukrainian border which is largely ethnic Russian and claims independence. Peacekeeping forces have been long been present since a civil war in the area. Note news about Mariupol recently where the treacherous Azov battalion elements have used civilians as human shields. Seems to me one way the present Russian Federation is different from the former Soviet Union is it does not want to rule territories where local people do not want it to. Enough of a challenge keeping the RF with all its ethnic groups together.
Posted by mox, Saturday, 26 March 2022 11:23:32 PM
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Mox

Seven generals out of twenty killed. RF acknowledges one. Why? No updates on troops killed for several weeks either. As Putin suggests the place is full of Nazis, gays and drug addicts, wouldn't reporting the number of soldiers killed suggest that the Russian army is finding plenty of the above given the resistance? Also, what of the 400,000 plus Ukranians forcibly expatriated to Russia?

Russia should be a technically advanced and wealthy nation. It could be if it embraced democracy. Instead it is a paranoid backwater run by gangsters subjugating the population with lies and terror. The Ukranian army has 200,000 in training and a supply of advanced weaponry. With more troops they will have the capacity to drive the Russian army out of Ukraine, including the Russian puppet regimes. With the sanctions, RF cannot make more tanks and weapons, nor can it repair them. It can make dumb bombs which it uses indiscriminately on the Ukranians. Like the ex-communist nations of Western Europe, no-one wants these murderous thugs back.
Posted by Fester, Sunday, 27 March 2022 4:40:36 AM
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Mox,

It must be upsetting for you to see your beloved Russian army getting its arse so badly whipped. The main offensive against Kyiv has been defeated and is now being driven out of the surroundings leaving behind 1000s of dead Russians and abandoned and destroyed tanks etc. Russia has also lost several ships and is now losing control of the only city Russia has taken i.e. Kherson with the risk of having its most western forces encircled.

Russia's claims that its focus was on the Donbas region is only because all its other objectives are abject failures.
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 27 March 2022 6:21:52 AM
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Should Ukraine fall, God forbid, then Xi is not going to say as Mox might be hoping: "Oh, this Mox is our friend, he always supported us so let us make him a minister in Australia's new puppet government". Rather he would ask: "Is this Mox fit and able - then let him dig for us in Australia's outback mines till he drops of hunger and exhaustion, otherwise by Confucian lore his only possible use is to be broken up into spare organs for our elderly Hun Chinese".
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 27 March 2022 9:21:23 AM
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I don't see what I have said should inspire personal abuse. I believe, the best way to curb Russian aggression is to stop funding it through our fuel purchases. And that needs a brand new mindset in Canberra!

We need to divorce ourselves from all the energy barons and their mates in Canberra! That will clear the way for alternatives to be actually considered. Most transport can be reconfigured to run on CNG. i.e., Methane.

Methane can be produced by the fermentation of all biological waste/sewerage. Or by extracting it from coal and then stripping the impurities like tar and ammonia, both of which could be also recovered given their commercial value!

Then we could use arid interior land and pumped effluent to grow farmed algae, using land with no agricultural value! and done on a large enough scale, produce ready to use as is, diesel that would retail at around 44 cents a litre!

Then there's hydrogen and easily extracted from seawater Using the ultra low cost water molecule cracking as the production paradigm. And then liquified, replace petrol, albeit, slightly larger tanks would be needed to allow current range to continue.

And should we go down this track, find huge markets overseas worth possible annual trillions! As the world seeks to end any future reliance on any Russian oil or gas!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Sunday, 27 March 2022 10:00:03 AM
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Putin has always believed that war with the US is inevitable. He could be just playing around with Ukraine to draw the U.S. out.

Putin is a master manipulator and propagandist; the stories about Russia doing badly could be due to the man himself. It is very hard to believe that with all the preparations and warnings prior to the invasion that he would stuff things up. He could keeping the real action for the U.S.

Just a thought.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 27 March 2022 10:02:38 AM
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Alan,

Nobody "personally abused" you, as your experience should tell you. The 'abuse' was all in the mind of newby with a silly, self-deprecating name and a tender personality.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 27 March 2022 10:07:26 AM
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ttbn,

An interesting theory that Russia is lulling the west into a false sense of security by getting their military to fight like drunken clowns?

Russia has committed about 2/3rds of its active forces to Ukraine and has suffered massive casualties and loss of equipment. I think not.
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 27 March 2022 11:09:34 AM
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Seems fester, shadowminister and yuyutsu want to believe stories about the Ukrainian situation according to the the western mainstream media, which in some important respects amounts to an "Empire of Lies" in an "Echo Chamber" where they keep being repeated. Also, probably do not even want to examine news from alternative sources as well and then try to figure out what likely truth is. They effectively just try to dismiss what does not conform to the western narrative as propaganda and accuse those like myself who point out what seems misleading about it as being something like a puppet and stooge of the Russians. Regarding situation in Ukraine, should for a start regularly check eg www.rt.com , a main news sources from the Russian Federation which until recently at least has maintained news bureaus in US and UK. Some of the "powers that be" there have long disliked it because many of their own citizens who have followed it and associated www.sputniknews.com have come to regard them as more honest than their own news sources. Re one alternative US based news source which the "establishment' there strongly dislikes, watch updates www.veteranstoday.com. Its primary aim is to look after interests of US military veterans. Also, exposing inappropriate US military actions which results in many of those serving suffering. Viewpoints on Ukraine are basically from people with background military knowledge. Without me listing other "alternative" news, those who want to "look around" sources could start with links from the above. Anyway, I am one of those to who it is obvious that the Russians and people of Eastern Ukraine who wanted their help are clearly winning the physical war but so far the basically US puppet government in Kyiv has been well ahead regarding propaganda. Wonder how long it will before this all falls apart. Unfortunately seems the US wants war to continue as long as possible to weaken Russia and with lots of publicized civilian casualties to try and blame it for.
Posted by mox, Sunday, 27 March 2022 11:49:56 AM
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I see that after the 7th general was killed the Russians have bravely run away.
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 27 March 2022 12:45:58 PM
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SM,

I am not privy to Russia's deployment of its military assets so I can't comment. If Russia's performance is as bad as the military experts in the media say it is, then Russia might very well go for the nuclear option that the same media has hinted at.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 27 March 2022 12:55:11 PM
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Mox,

I just want to see Russians and Ukranians enjoy peaceful and prosperous lives. Putin and his gangsters have delivered ruin and misery. You are doing your bit for Putin, but regardless of our differing opinions, it is a military conflict that will settle the argument. The Ukranians are becoming more effective as an army. They are demonstrating an ability to destroy Russian artillery, and drones are allowing a more efficient destruction of the Russian army.

If the Russian army lasts a few more months in Ukraine it could suffer greater casualties than the Americans did in Vietnam. Hopefully Putin will cop a bullet long before that happens.
Posted by Fester, Sunday, 27 March 2022 1:03:35 PM
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Mox,

" Re one alternative US based news source which the "establishment' there strongly dislikes, watch updates www.veteranstoday.com. Its primary aim is to look after interests of US military veterans. "

Oh dear. Veterans Today is a fake news site that primarily pushes anti-Semitic conspiracy hoaxes. It pushes the notion that the 9/11 buildings were bought down by 'the Jooos". Predictably it denies the Holocaust.

Even the head of this fake site has admitted that 30% of the site is obviously false and a further 40% is purposely partly false.

And unfortunately, this is the least unreliable of the sites Mox pushes.

Oh dear.

Seems like the Russian apologists have gone from declaring that the Russian war aims were to demilitarise Ukraine and get rid of the Nazi drug-addicted government to, now, just 'freeing' Donbass'. That by itself tells you how badly things are going for Putin's legions.
Posted by mhaze, Sunday, 27 March 2022 2:07:00 PM
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Whatever the fortunes of the Russian military are, Europe is helping pay for them by spending $1 billion a day for Russian coal, oil and gas. Russia is insisting on payment in roubles from next week, which will improve the rating of the rouble.

And, here's a laugh. Ukraine has stopped 'Trans Women' refugees from leaving, telling them that they are men and must fight.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 27 March 2022 2:11:35 PM
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Mox

Rubbish. You've backed a loser.

They failed in the north ... even in Kharkiv.
Putin is doing was Hittler did at Leningrad.

Failed in South ... can't even take Odessa.

In Dondas, after decimation,in the north, they'll face the Ukrainian military. .

ttbn

Nothing you spout has any credence.
You have shown yourself to be acompletely empty vassal.

Of course you don't recognise personal abuse. It's impossible with your exhibited extraordinarily low comprehensive ability. It is severely retarded.

Jesus, if the Russia military is as decrepit as it has proved, what the hell are its nukes like? The yanks won't go to war with them. That's not their history in involvement in Europe. Look at their late entry in WW11. They waited till the Russians had beaten the nazi invasion of the USSR before D Day.

You don't have to be privy to see how stuffed Russia's military has become.

Nukes?I don't think so. Mere fear mongering. They are old technology and the Yanks haven't bothered updating theirs.

You would have to ask why.

The Yanks have a nuke defence. Trump landed it when the Russians and Chinese boasted they had Mach 4 speed nukes. The us landed its spacecraft. It had been in space for over 2 years and had no solar panels. It entered the atmosphere and navigated in loops and aerobatics at Mach 12 speeds, before it landed and was relaunched within weeks.

Explore the technology required to do that. Propulsion, power source, communications etc

The money Europe and the US is nothing now. Russia relies on Ukraine for WHEAT. Russia will starve because of Putin's stupidity.

Only trans women and the likes of the US Democrats think trans women are not men. What you should focus on is the numbers of Ukrainian women staying to fight beside their men.

For you to pretend you are a liberal minded person who supports trans people is an atrocity. Sort of puts you in some remarkable company. US Democrats like AOC's quad.

hohohoho that really tickled my fancy.

Russian oil and gas will pay for all reparations..
Posted by imajulianutter, Sunday, 27 March 2022 6:07:50 PM
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I wonder how long it'll be before we get to hear what this conflict is really all about !
Many Putin condemners may just start to do a 180 once it is realised !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 27 March 2022 6:53:37 PM
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Bar a sparse few, I think that most will view it as unprovoked Russian military aggression as it was with the Prague Spring.

IJN

The Ukranians are not yet able to launch a large counteroffensive and the Russians are desperate to keep it that way by targeting fuel supplies, which is why Zalensky wants better air defences. I am sure that Biden's military advisers are screaming at him to provide more military aid. As it is I think the Ukranian forces will prevail, but it will take longer and cause more suffering while Biden and Nato dithers.

Hasbeen

I think the war has inspired a fair amount of unity against Russian aggression, but I agree with you that old squabbles are a curse.
Posted by Fester, Sunday, 27 March 2022 7:26:45 PM
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hi Fester,

I have found most of your comments are accurate and thoughtful.

I'd disagree on timeline.

It will all unravel far quicker than anyone thinks.

Zelensky and his military advisors are far smarter than anyone thinks.
They will do unorthodox actions from now on.
Putin and his military staff are privileged bureaucrats.
They will have no idea what is coming or how to defeat it..

I suspect an astonishing destruction of the entire Russian dictatorial system by it's own former troops.

Putin's problem is he cannot use the armies he has deployed in places like Georgia, Chechnya, across Russia and in Moscow. I see a guerrilla campaign from within.

He has abandoned his troops in Northern Ukraine.
They will turn on him.
It would not require much encouragement.
Posted by imajulianutter, Sunday, 27 March 2022 9:23:20 PM
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Interesting IJN,

I wouldn't know. The Russian force is a few hundred thousand strong so I would think it will take some time, but I hope you are right.

I found the following site and hope that it might interest you and mox. I think the reason Putin is so upset is because he cannot emulate his idol Adolf.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/invasion-of-poland-fall-1939

"On September 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland. To justify the action, Nazi propagandists accused Poland of persecuting ethnic Germans living in Poland. They also falsely claimed that Poland was planning, with its allies Great Britain and France, to encircle and dismember Germany. The SS, in collusion with the German military, staged a phony attack on a German radio station. The Germans falsely accused the Poles of this attack. Hitler then used the action to launch a “retaliatory” campaign against Poland.

Germany launched the surprise attack at dawn on September 1, 1939, with an advance force consisting of more than 2,000 tanks supported by nearly 900 bombers and over 400 fighter planes. In all, Germany deployed 60 divisions and nearly 1.5 million men in the invasion."
Posted by Fester, Sunday, 27 March 2022 9:46:18 PM
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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-20/vladimir-putin-invasion-ukraine-politics-holy-war/100921102
I know the above link is ABC but since they only copy/paste there could be something in it !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 27 March 2022 10:26:20 PM
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Mox,

You are at best amusing trying to tell everyone that white is black etc. You are a joke and no one believes a word you say.

ttbn,

There is no situation where Russia uses Nuclear weapons and gets away with it.
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 28 March 2022 4:54:03 AM
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no situation where Russia uses Nuclear weapons and gets away with it.
shadowminister,
That goes without saying as this is the crux of the dilemma !
Posted by individual, Monday, 28 March 2022 7:11:45 AM
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In my humble opinion, People have the freedom to be stupid on steroids but really should learn some history before making fools of themselves.

As a Ukrainian, I wonder what Australians have been learning at university for th past 20 years, as it sure aint factual or history.

Have a listen and see if you learn anything useful

UKRAINE ON FIRE - GIVES YOU A GOOD INSIGHT
WATCH
https://www.bitchute.com/video/wO6I17ygGqtP/
Posted by JaninaS, Monday, 28 March 2022 7:47:39 AM
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Shodowminister, Your claiming that no one believes a word of what I have said here just shows you are one of those have been so brainwashed by the endlessly repeated western mainstream narrative on Ukraine that you do not want to even look at, let alone consider any information that indicates details may be wrong. Then note after I pointed out that the US based veteranstoday.com website has been regularly posting detailed updates on Ukrainian situation , reaction of some was just to condemn the site overall. Is important to remember that regarding news from sources you overall strongly disagree with overall editorial preferences on, there often may be straightforward useful information and also opinions on some issues you happen to agree with. Then regarding ones you don't, can make you a more informed critic. Name calling responses against someone pointing out something you do not like is a common response by those who know they cannot put up logical arguments to support what they would like to believe.
Posted by mox, Monday, 28 March 2022 12:23:08 PM
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Hey Mox,

'Name calling responses against someone pointing out something you do not like is a common response by those who know they cannot put up logical arguments to support what they would like to believe.'

Tell ttbn

hohohohoho

Hi JaninaS

I watched the video. Thanks. It confirmed all I'd learned previously. Ukraine has a very complex history. Yes, it switched sides often ... yes it's political landscape was very diverse and at odds in so many ways. Also many of it's nationalists had multiple agendas.

I'd only say, Yelensky appears to be genuine. Time will tell. I'll have an open mind. Let's see how he treats the abandoned and immobile leaderless Russian Army troops in Northern Ukraine.

Proudly, I have no uni training. I dropped out within months of starting 50 years ago as I resented and rejected being taught what to think. Proudly I was taught, prior to that, to read critically by my mother. I have read most of the great Western literature, as well as the Russians, (modern and classic. Leskov is a favourite), the Chinese, Indian and Middle Eastern. I've read back to Gilgarmesh as well as the ancient Egyptians from 2350BC. My journey is one of nearly 55 years. I started serious guided reading around 15.

I have found uni educated trained in professional roles and sadly not educated to think. Having said that, I have found many are intellectual but the vast majority are not. They are mostly our 'managerial elites'. Biden and his democrats are the epitome.

I appreciated your input.
Posted by imajulianutter, Monday, 28 March 2022 3:20:31 PM
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Dear Mox,

I noticed that you don't like or trust the Americans: well neither do I, but any connection with America is completely incidental - this war is about Europe and Australia being attacked by two monsters and fighting for our lives.

If the unreliable Americans choose to help us, then all the better for we cannot afford to refuse, but otherwise we still have to be strong and stand ourselves for our freedom.

It is not that side-story of Ukrainian affiliation with the US that matters (if that's indeed the case, I think that Ukrainians feel more affiliated with Europe): what matters most is that the indisputable fact that Ukrainians still control Kiev over a month after such a massive attack, that bravery of the Ukrainian people, is the sole reason why carefully-watching Xi may abstain from invading, first Taiwan then Japan and Australia, thus why we, yourself included, stand a chance to remain alive and free.

I don't know you personally, including even whether or not you care for your and/or your family's life and freedom, but I do care and right now these brave Ukrainians, who may or may not be affiliated with America, also happen to be saving our lives. I salute them gratefully!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 28 March 2022 3:35:28 PM
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Thank you Janina.

One thing missing from the documentary was mention of the Holodomor. It was a terror inflicted by Stalin in the Ukranians for wanting autonomy and killed several million. It might be part of the reason for the Ukranians not embracing the Russian invaders.

You have heard of the Holodomor haven't you Janina? Why do you think it was absent from the documentary? I would have thought that Ukranians would remember the Holodomor like Jews would remember the Holocaust. Does the fact that Stalin was Georgian absolve Russia?
Posted by Fester, Monday, 28 March 2022 6:05:29 PM
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Mox,

I don't take anything at face value, but there are a few issues for which there is overwhelming evidence:

1 The pretext for Russia's invasion is a sham. Ukraine is not in any way a Nazi regime nor is it holding Ukrainians hostage.
2 Russia is indiscriminately bombarding civilian areas which is a war crime.
3 Russia's main thrust was against Kyiv which has been a dismal failure. The claim that the Donbas region was the prime objective is farcical.
4 Russia's casualties and loss of tanks vehicles and aircraft are extensive.
5 The story from Russian media is heavily censored and mostly clearly wrong.
Posted by shadowminister, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 4:21:56 AM
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Re issues shadowminister claims there is "overwhelming evidence" of, is more like overwhelming propaganda by the likes of the Western mainstream media which many people have been brainwashed to believe. Those who check details elsewhere often draw different conclusions on important aspects of what has been going on. Regarding Russian military thrust around Kyiv, is a good limited tactical measure for intended purposes. The main Russian aim is to help locals remove Ukrainian forces from Donbass area and permanently stop aggression there. Taking control of some areas around Kyiv has resulted in Ukrainians diverting considerable resources away from Donbass to defend it. Russian presence is also helpful for finding out about and disabling facilities and resources that are among backup the Ukrainian military needs. Russians and local militias can then get an army that is short of eg food, fuel and ammo out of Donbass with less difficulty and casualties than a well resourced one.
Posted by mox, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 8:46:25 AM
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Dear Janina,

" The USSR was a blood-stained regime
In which millions were murdered as a daily routine
Might is Right was their slogan of choice
Dissenting cries were not given a voice

History has written of the many disposed
The frozen infernos have now been exposed
Putin and Stalin are two of a kind
Yet some in the West to this are still blind

Putin like Stalin will take what he wants
He will kill and destroy those who fight in response
The world can't allow this rampage of terror
Not protecting Ukraine would be a huge error

First, the Ukraine, then Romania
Followed by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania
Do we want the USSR re-instated
Ruling Eastern Europe unabated?

The world must unite and be fully aware
That this is a battle that we all need to share
Putin must be stopped in his tracks
Otherwise no sovereign nation can truly relax."
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 10:15:13 AM
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"The world must unite and be fully aware
That this is a battle that we all need to share
Putin must be stopped in his tracks
Otherwise no sovereign nation can truly relax"

So are you advocating that the west/NATO/the USA actually fight in Ukraine? If not, how do you propose that Putin "be stopped in his tracks"?

I see lots of assertions that Putin must be opposed/defeated/stopped. But when it comes to concrete proposals....crickets.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 10:50:54 AM
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mhaze,

It's the Russian people that have to decide what
sort of nation they want to have - and the only way to do
it is to have a major revolution. By the people and for
the people. With that in mind -

I've made it quite clear in my many posts on this subject
that - hit Putin where it hurts - go after the money.
So impose more sanctions and hit them where it hurts.
If the economy goes to shyte - the people will react.

Heard this morning that the Russians are shelling "major
military targets," such as - schools, hospitals, shopping
centres, housing, apartment buildings, churches.
It must be amazing living in Russia under Putin - and buy
the crap he's selling.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 1:02:36 PM
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Foxy,

Hitting them where it really hurts is to stop buying Russian Oil and Gas.

Tell me which Western/European have supported this, but still buy?

All of them.

Why don't you do something about that?

Here is what you could do.

Rather than the ineffective generalised calling the world 'to unite and hit them where it hurts', simply lobby the cowardly socialist western/european governments to stop buying the Russian oil and gas.

Go on, start a campaign n against them. Tell them you wont vote for them if they refuse to do this.

I'll help.

Pretty simple really.
Posted by imajulianutter, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 1:55:08 PM
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Mox,

That concentrating on the Donbas would be a better strategy is true. However, with the majority of Russian forces tied down near Kyiv, there is very little left for the Donbas where the Ukrainians are beginning to make progress. Using the majority of your forces for a diversion would seem to be somewhat contradictory.

There have been so many anti-tank missiles sent to the Ukrainian army that there are about 10 anti-tank missiles for each Russian tank and just about every man and his dog has one, which explains why the roads are littered with the burnt-out husks of tanks and vehicles.
Posted by shadowminister, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 2:14:20 PM
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The obvious main objective of Putin and associates is to remove areas of Eastern Ukraine where local people do not want it from Ukrainian government control. Is doubtful they want to stay in other parts of the country after guarantee of hostilities permanently ceasing. Would probably regard this as a costly "can of worms". Enough of a challenge keeping the present Russian Federation with all its ethnic groups together. Is naive to think bullying including with sanctions will make any significant difference to Russian policy regarding Ukraine. Looks like sanctions will hurt some of the countries imposing them more. In some respects Russia can become more self sufficient and /or increase trade with the many countries that do not try sanctioning them. Then regarding hoping there will be a major revolution that will depose Putin: Do a search about popularity of him and the current administration in Russia. Apparently lately both over 75% approval rating by Russian people. Then remember approval of a predecessor. Boris Yeltsin, who became a stooge that western powers loved apparently was down to 3% before he was got rid of. Re Russia supposedly deliberately hitting civilian targets, western media will usually not tell the full story and /or peddle half truths and lies. eg Regarding hospital in Mariupol. Patients and staff had apparently been recently moved out and Azov battalion was making it a military headquarters and facility. Seems plenty of other examples where precision strikes have been made on military targets in urban areas when hopefully will be no or minimal civilian casualties. Also, note how close examination of some publicised photos of supposed Ukrainian successes and Russian atrocities have been exposed as fakes.
Posted by mox, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 2:27:24 PM
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'dead horse' box.
Posted by imajulianutter, Tuesday, 29 March 2022 4:29:42 PM
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Mox,

The main objective originally was not just Eastern Ukraine. That it is now is because the main Russian force sent to take Kyiv and Kharkiv. have been badly beaten and are still essential locked down around Kyiv.

As for the Donbas region, the only indication that they want to secede from Ukraine is from the Russian forces that invaded it.
Posted by shadowminister, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 6:29:43 AM
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Shadowminister is one who has been brainwashed by the Ukrainian and western government propaganda and do not seem to want to know about the other sides of the story. Especially the backgrounds. Now how about checking news and views from the Donetsk Republic, one of the two so called "rebel" areas of Eastern Ukraine who with Russian help are now making progress getting rid if Ukrainian military that has been trying to retake their areas by force for the last 8 years with regular artillery and rocket attacks. See www.dan-news.info/en for a start. Then should have a look at Russian and "alternative" western news sources as well.
Posted by mox, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 8:43:52 AM
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'dead horse, Mox'

Today, I've seen reports of Ukrainian rocket attacks on Russian soil and that two Russian border towns have been evacuated ... in the north.

Today, I've seen reports of Ukrainian success in the south.

sadly all are via Western , up to the minute,' boots on the ground', media.

It is fair and reasonable you do not trust these sources.

In fairness can you supply the sources of the Russian reports and their view, of these claims, so I can judge for myself.

Thankyou
Posted by imajulianutter, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 4:03:15 PM
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IJN

I think you were right about the speed of defeat of the Russians. I hope that the Ukrainians are of a capacity to drive back Russian forces in the East. It is tragic to see what war criminal Putin's army of terror has done.
Posted by Fester, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 7:51:50 PM
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Fester and others believing latest propaganda that the Russians have been defeated reminds me of a recent story about a cartoon circulating lately in Russia. Apparently depicts a couple of Russian soldiers in Washington DC and caption something like "We are losing the propaganda war." Worth noting that in the past, countries that have tried to invade Russia have usually later had Russian troops marching through their capital cities. For those who may not know where to start looking for info on current Ukrainian situation that is not largely Ukrainian and western government propaganda, some websites to start with. They often have articles from and links to other sites. Have previously mentioned the US based www.veteranstoday.com Check it out and judge articles on their own merits. Obviously "powers that be" do not like some stuff it publishes and try to discourage people from even looking at it. Claim is pro Kremlin, antisemitic and pushes conspiracy theories. (The latter are often worth examining. Sometimes are basically truths that some people want kept hidden.) Note www.rt.com and associated www.sputnik.com based in Russian Federation give overall more even handed coverage than most Western news sources. Lately the US and UK governments have stopped their broadcast programs. Blatantly censoring organisations inclined to publish embarrassing truths they don't like. Lately, getting onto these sites is sometimes slowed by DDoS guard coming up. Directed Denial of Service is programmed large numbers of phony users trying to log onto the site to make it difficult for those genuinely trying to access it. Other sites to check for updates include www.moonofalabama.org. and www.consortiumnews.com. Another which often has interesting and informative articles is www.thesaker.is . Run by a presently US based author using server in Iceland. Which would make it more difficult for those in USA including authorities who dislike it to hack or shut it down. For "daily writings about the End of Illusions" by an Australian author, see www.caitlinjohnstone.com . Then site run by former US politician and presidential candidate www.ronpaulinstitute.org . Another small site run by an experienced "insider" in the US is www.paulcraigroberts.org
Posted by mox, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 9:49:05 PM
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mox

It is a tragic mess and Russia needs to get out asap. I suspect in many instances they cannot. I don't see any positives from Putin's invasion, either for Ukraine or Russia. So much needless death and destruction. What will Ukranians think of Russia now? Stalin tried a terror famine and now Putin conducts a military invasion primarily targeting civilians.

Western propaganda? I wish all the footage of death and devastation I have seen was fake, but sadly I think it true. I don't think the Russian people will be happy when they learn the truth. I think they will feel great shame and anger toward Putin for his action.
Posted by Fester, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 10:20:14 PM
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Fester, To get this tragic mess under control, Russia will need to keep some military presence around Ukraine to reduce likelihood of problems flaring up again. Then Russian leaders should try not to repeat mistakes of the past where civilian diplomats have wasted away gains made by their military. Western media would have everyone believe the Russian invasion has blatantly targeted civilians which is a BLATANT LIE. The stated policy has been to try and mimimise civilian casualties and there have been lots of precision strikes on targets with military significance which have achieved this. Has been a problem though with Ukrainian neo Nazi Azov regiment types deliberately positioning military facilities where they can use civilians as human shields. Regarding claiming there are no positives from the Russian invasion, remember result would have been more negatives had they not intervened. Ukraine was about to conduct a full scale invasion of the Donbass area they had been terrorising for eight years. Had this succeeded, Russia would have been faced with a large military force threatening Crimea . Also Ukraine joining NATO, which would have facilitated the US establishing military bases there tothreated Russia.
Posted by mox, Thursday, 31 March 2022 8:18:31 AM
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Mox,

I don't know why you bother regurgitating Russian propaganda which consists of blatant lies. The claim that Ukrainians are shelling their own cities is so stupid that it is laughable.

The Russian army that is costing Russia $bns every day hasn't advanced in weeks and has retreated in several areas. Each day it is losing men and machinery in an asymmetrical war that Ukraine can fight for years if necessary.

The old truism is that if you are not winning you are losing. All while Russia's economy is in a nosedive. I see Putin is now conscripting a further 134 000 to prop up his demoralised army.
Posted by shadowminister, Friday, 1 April 2022 4:25:59 AM
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Remember quote "illiteracy in the 21st century is not people who cannot read or write. It is those who resist unlearning lies they have been brainwashed to believe". Look at the demonstration of this by shadowminister above. Obviously does not to even consider anything that indicates the narrative of supporters of the current Ukrainian regime may be wrong and tries to just dismiss it as "Russian propaganda". He reckons the claim that Ukrainians are shelling their own cities is laughable. Unfortunately it isn't. For a start, check the latest on www.dan-news.info/en , ie news agency of the Donetsk Peoples Republic, which declared independence from Ukraine after the US sponsored coup 8 years ago. They have been regularly shelled since. Including in capital Donetsk city, which lately also has had a severe shortage of water due to major supply being cut off and Ukrainian hostilities stopping repairs. Hopefully soon the long "dug in" Ukrainian military nearby will soon be removed from the area by Donetsk militia with Russian help - especially from backup supplies being disrupted.
Posted by mox, Friday, 1 April 2022 9:41:04 AM
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Mox,

You are a joke, and your claims are getting more and more desperate. Unlike you, I don't parrot any propaganda from either Ukrainian or Russian sources. What is clear from the massive library of photographs, satellite images etc are:

Russia is massively bombing civilian cities,
Russia's initial attempts to take Kyiv and Kharkiv have failed,
Russia's losses of men and machinery have been huge and are continuing.
The Ukrainian destruction of a fuel depot in Belgorod shows that Ukraine is now taking the war to Russia. How humiliating!
Posted by shadowminister, Saturday, 2 April 2022 4:51:07 AM
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SM,

The reality for Mox to consider is the differing fortune of Russia compared to Japan and Germany since the end of the second world war. Liberal democracy is not to be feared. It provides a path to peace and prosperity. Mox is correct in assuming that Ukraine may try and recapture all Ukranian territory invaded by Russia, but by what legal measure does Russia hold this territory? Nearly 18,000 Russian dead and about 25% of the military hardware destroyed or captured. All the Russian army have excelled at is murdering civilians and destroying buildings and infrastructure. Without a heavily censored Russian media this madness would have stopped long ago.
Posted by Fester, Saturday, 2 April 2022 11:57:24 AM
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Fester,

After fighting Ukraine, Russia will be demoted to a 3rd world country.

It's army is pathetic and it's economy is a joke.
Posted by shadowminister, Saturday, 2 April 2022 12:18:58 PM
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