Sorry, David. But, none of this piece is evidence based or factual, in my view!
Alan B.

This article is over the top. David Singer has published many pro Israel articles , but this one goes too far.. The United Nations represents the countries of this world. So that is what they believe. But we all know that Israel is kicking out Palestinian families from Palestinian areas to form their settlements. It is amazing, to this reader, that the Jewish people, who have suffered so much over the centuries, are behaving so insensitively toward Palestinians.

Dave works for the PR department of MOSSAD…and he may or may not be correct in his assumptions, but I’m sure sick of hearing violin music for Israel and the Palestinians.

Dan

There is no such thing as Palestinian lands.

Around 1030 BC, Israel became a sovereign Jewish kingdom. Jews are regarded as being the indigenous inhabitants; even the Koran mentions that.

The country has been overrun by many nations including Syrians, Greeces and Romans. But not Palestinians who have been offered land of their own on numerous occasions since 1937, but they have rejected them, preferring to attempt wiping Israel out.

Dear Dan,

I have great appreciation for the Mossad.

Had people like "Dave" been working for the MOSSAD, than we would never have had the opportunity to learn about its glorious history and extraordinary success stories.

The highly secretive Mossad has no PR department - that would be akin to the thieves-and-pickpockets union requiring its members to wear a particular shiny uniform for work...

Had I been directing the Mossad, then, subject to other priorities, it would conduct some well-hidden operation to make "Dave" disappear, or at least be framed on some spurious sexual allegations so he spends a long time in jail with no internet access and no longer be able to damage Israel's PR over these pages.

Finally, what's wrong with violin music?

Yuyutsu

I was kind of hoping you’d come to the rescue.
Thank you for lightening up my day. (And educating me on the vagaries of MOSSAD).Do you happen to know a psychiatrist that could help poor old Dave with his OCD?

Dan

Dear Ttbn,

«Around 1030 BC, Israel became a sovereign Jewish kingdom.»

1047 BC to be exact, then it lasted for 77 years before splitting into two separate kingdoms.

«Jews are regarded as being the indigenous inhabitants»

Yes, among others.

«even the Koran mentions that.»

Is that anything to go by?

«The country has been overrun by many nations including Syrians, Greeces and Romans. But not Palestinians»

But of course - most of today's so-called "Palestinians" are the descendants of Israelis who remained on their land ever since but later converted to Islam under the pressure of Jizyah taxes.

PS.

Yuyutsu

Missed the subject of violin music.
I only play the imaginary violin, I’m very good at that, but it would not get me a job with the local orchestra.

Dan

The world`s worst terrorist state aided and abetted by the (Dis)US of Paranoia.

ateday

Agree but Israel is by no means unique to your claim. We have home grown secret service organisations which rival the best.
The big worry is not so much the SS organisations, but who has the power to direct them.
Greaseball Ned Kelly, (Barilaro) very recent case in point, using a NSW police special services for his own defence, arresting a witness hostile against an exposure of his suspect dealings as Deputy Premier of NSW by friendly Jordies Utube sitarist.

Dan

#PeterBo

You state:
"But we all know that Israel is kicking out Palestinian families from Palestinian areas to form their settlements"

Care to elucidate with some specific examples of where this is happening rather than this throwaway unsubstantiated sentence?

#Yuyutsu

1.#tbbn stated:
"Around 1030 BC, Israel became a sovereign Jewish kingdom. Jews are regarded as being the indigenous inhabitants; even the Koran mentions that."

2.Your reply to #tbbn:
«Around 1030 BC, Israel became a sovereign Jewish kingdom.»

1047 BC to be exact, then it lasted for 77 years before splitting into two separate kingdoms.

«Jews are regarded as being the indigenous inhabitants»

Yes, among others.

«even the Koran mentions that.»

Is that anything to go by?

«The country has been overrun by many nations including Syrians, Greeces and Romans. But not Palestinians»

But of course - most of today's so-called "Palestinians" are the descendants of Israelis who remained on their land ever since but later converted to Islam under the pressure of Jizyah taxes..."

3. My reply to you

Are you really serious in claiming that "most of today's so-called "Palestinians" are the descendants of Israelis who remained on their land ever since but later converted to Islam under the pressure of Jizyah taxes."

Today's "so called Palestinians" are "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.(PLO Charter Article 5)

The Arabs didn't hit Palestine until the 7th century:
"In the early 7th century, the first of the Rightly Guided Caliphs, Abu Bakr, had succeeded to unify the Arab tribes on the Arabian Peninsula under Islam, the third monotheistic faith originating from the region. He subsequently called the faithful to a holy war or jihad to spread Islam beyond the boundaries of the Peninsula. Abu Bakr died in 634 during the first stages of the conquest, but his successor Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab won the decisive Battle of Yarmouk against Emperor Heraclius’ Byzantine army in 636. Jerusalem and Caesarea fell in 638 and 640 respectively."
https://fanack.com/israel/history-of-israel/ancient-history/the-arab-conquest/

You have been swallowing too much Jew-hating propaganda...

Try and educate yourself a little better on the Jewish-Arab conflict that remains unresolved after 100 years.

Dear David,

«Are you really serious in claiming that "most of today's so-called "Palestinians" are the descendants of Israelis who remained on their land ever since but later converted to Islam under the pressure of Jizyah taxes."»

Yes, regardless of how these people see themselves today, research shows that their ethnic origin is Israeli, more specifically Judean, that their ancestors were Jewish farmers who never left their land, never exiled, that while the higher classes who lived in cities left Israel, the farmers stayed on their land.

It is true that Arabs conquered Israel between the years 638 and 643, and indeed they expelled the Byzantines, but the Jews were actually happy about it and welcomed them, because the Arabs were relatively more liberal and humane to them than the former Christian rulers. They were even allowed to visit Jerusalem after many years of being forbidden to go there.

The research shows that the conquering army could not have comprised of more than 46,000 soldiers, and these too were then moved to other fronts, so Jews were still the majority by far. Further, they were all men, so even if they fathered children, the mothers were still Jewish, so their descendants are also Jewish according to Jewish law.

Research into the nuances of language and names of these so-called "Palestinians" proves that regardless of converting to Islam (especially to avoid taxes), they retained much of their Israeli/Judean culture. Later on they also adopted different national identities, but that cannot change the fact that most of them are ethnically Jewish.

The early Zionists were hoping to include them as brothers in the building of their new land. They (wrongly) assumed that the local Arabs will join them enthusiastically. That dream was then shattered by the 1929 Hebron massacre and later in the Arab revolt of 1936, when the bitterly devastated Zionist leadership understood that they had to go it alone. As a consequence they also changed their history books, but they could not change the facts.

#Yuyutsu

Absolute and unmitigated twaddle based on your supposed unsubstantiated "research".

Put up your sources to support each of the ridiculous claims you have made.

The PLO Charter makes a mockery of your "research". It clearly establishes the Arab identity of those identifying themselves as the "Palestinians".

#Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

#Article 2:
Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

#Article 3:
The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

#Article 4:
The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

#Article 5:
The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

The conflict between Jews and Arabs has been raging unresolved for 100 years over sovereignty in the territory comprising former Palestine.

Do I accept their claims set out in the above document published in 1968? No -I do not - as I repeatedly have made clear in the many articles that have been published on OLO.

But I would never have the temerity to do what you have disparagingly said of them: "regardless of how these people see themselves today". Who are you to tell people how they should see themselves?

Dear David,

I am not telling these people how to see themselves - why should I even care?

As far as I am concerned they are nothing, they are insignificant, they are weak with no strength to threaten Israel: all they can do is bark, so let them make noise, let them write their angry charters because there is nothing else they can do, it is only you who bothers to read them, I wonder why?

You keep mentioning some "conflict" between Jews and Arabs, but you never even cared to explain who those Jews and Arabs are supposed to be. Israel and the Arab countries are increasingly at peace.

You also keep mentioning "former Palestine" which is a great insult to the Jewish people: there was never such a place as "Palestine" - that was a a derogatory word which Romans invented to humiliate the Jews, so who would want to use such a dirty word but a Roman anti-Semite?

These fools continue to consider themselves "Arabs" even after the rest of the Arab world forgot about them. They also continue to look for trouble, infuriating Israelis by describing themselves by that insulting word. Have they had any sense, they could have, 100 years ago, been recognised as Jews due to their ancestry, or alternately they could have become Israelis while remaining Muslims, they could have participated in the Zionist project as equal brothers if they wanted, they could have been living today in one of the most developed countries, but they chose otherwise and so they suffer.

Why do you keep even mentioning them?
The occupation of the West Bank is an internal Israeli problem - the self-labeled "Palestinians" are irrelevant, they are not a factor in that equation and need not be considered.

David's article is disappointing. It seems that whenever I've seen something written by him concerning Israel, he characterises criticisms of the Israeli government and of its army, its 'settlers' and so forth ... as hatred of Jews.

I don't buy it...

#Yuyutsu

Are you incapable of reading and comprehending?

I requested the following from you:
"Absolute and unmitigated twaddle based on your supposed unsubstantiated "research".

Put up your sources to support each of the ridiculous claims you have made."

No sources posted by you - only more twaddle.

Not the way to establish any credibility.

Put up or shut up - your sources please

#Garry in Liffey

Sorry you are disappointed.

You apparently fail to understand that the UN claim that Jews have no rights to settle in Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and East Jerusalem - is contrary to Article 80 of the UN Charter.

That is Jew-hatred big time.

Dear David,

«your sources please»

Well there is a difficulty here because my sources are in Hebrew and this board only accepts English script.

Anyway, here is the book: http://simania.co.il/bookdetails.php?item_id=221363

Chapter 3 deals with and refutes the myth that the people of Israel were exiled in the year 70 A.D.

More specifically, sections 3-9 and 3-10 (pages 173-183) discuss the fate of the farming Jews who remained in the land of Israel all along till today.

These sections point to 24 other references, but all in Hebrew.

#Yuyutsu

Didn't know you could read and understand Hebrew.
Where did you pick that up?
Who was the author of this really groundbreaking work?

Could you give me the specific page references to back up your following allegations:
1."research shows that their ethnic origin [most of today's so called "Palestinians"] is Israeli, more specifically Judean, that their ancestors were Jewish farmers who never left their land, never exiled, that while the higher classes who lived in cities left Israel, the farmers stayed on their land."

2."The research shows that the conquering [Arab] army could not have comprised of more than 46,000 soldiers, and these too were then moved to other fronts, so Jews were still the majority by far. Further, they were all men, so even if they fathered children, the mothers were still Jewish, so their descendants are also Jewish according to Jewish law."

3.Research into the nuances of language and names of these so-called "Palestinians" proves that regardless of converting to Islam (especially to avoid taxes), they retained much of their Israeli/Judean culture. Later on they also adopted different national identities, but that cannot change the fact that most of them are ethnically Jewish."

Using Google translate from Hebrew to English will probably get a worthwhile result.

If your quoted research relates to any of the information contained in the 24 footnotes - please also similarly translate.

Dear David,

Google translate isn't going to be of much help since I have the book in physical form, thus you might have to do with my own translation. The Copyright allows me this, but sadly not to scan the pages for you.

1. The evidence is spread all over those sections. Let me quote just the 3rd paragraph of page 180:
"The Jewish origin of the farmers can be exposed through philological research of the local Arab language as well as by forensic geography. Like Belkind and in more details, the authors stress that according to a research based on the 10,000 names of all villages, streams, fountains, mountains, ruins, valleys and hills from "Dan" to "Beer-Sheva", the fact is settled that all the Biblical terms for the land of Israel are still alive, as it was, in the speech of the rural population [here comes a reference to the book: http://simania.co.il/bookdetails.php?item_id=948083 (by Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi, to later become Israel's first prime-minister and second president)]

"About 210 settlements have clear Hebrew names. Along the Muslim law existed for a long times "the laws of farmers or the unwritten customary laws which were called [in Arabic] 'Shariaat el chalil' - the laws of Abraham our forefather." [again a reference to the above book by Ben-Gurion]

"Next to the Muslim houses of prayers (jama'a) were many local temples in the villages (veli-o-makam) in memorial of the 3 forefathers, kings and prophets aside famous Sheikhs."

2. Page 174, 3rd paragraph:
"The Muslim army which rose from the Arab deserts like a swirling typhoon and which conquered the region between the years 638 and 643 A.D. was relatively small in size. By maximal estimate it had no more than 46,000 fighters and the vast majority of that force was transferred further on to fighting in other fronts on the borders of the Byzantine Caesarship." [here comes a reference to this book: http://www.booksefer.co.il/index.php?page=catalog&op=item&cs=31207)

"Of course, the positioning of some thousands of permanent soldiers brought about the bringing in of their families, and likely lands were confiscated for the conquerors,

[continued...]

[...continued]

but this process could not have in any case bring about a decisive change of demography; it could perhaps caused a small portion of the conquered to turn into vassals. Further, while the Arab occupation caused a decisive disconnect from the bustling trade which took place till then around the Mediterranean shores, thus the slow decline in population throughout the region, there is no information showing that this decline in population brought about the swapping of "nation"."

(page 175 continues to discuss the Jews' preference for the Muslims, their bad relationship with Christianity thus their support of the victorious Arab army)

The addition about the Arab army being all males, thus the population remaining Jewish even if women were raped, was my own logical conclusion. Has anyone ever heard of Arab women fighting wars (and raping the conquered men)?

3. Regarding the language and names, see above.
Regarding the conclusion, 1st paragraph of page 181:
"In the year 1929 [following the Hebron massacre] it could be seen that Ben-Zvi's [Israel's second president] voice was more moderate: "Clearly one cannot claim that all the [Arab]farmers are descendants of the ancient Jews, but only their majority in essence"" [here comes a reference to his book: http://www.nli.org.il/he/books/NNL_ALEPH990013511420205171/NLI ]

"According to him, various immigrants arrived from many places and the local population became quite mixed. However, what remained in the language, names of places, legal customs vast celebrations such as "Nabi Mussa" and other cultural practices, leave almost no doubt that "the vast majority of [Arab]farmers did not come from the Arab conquerors, but earlier, from the Jewish farmers who were by far the constituents of the land before the Islamic occupation"". [here's another reference to the same plus an article from the article-collection http://simania.co.il/bookdetails.php?item_id=74001 by the institute of Zalman-Shazar, Israel's 3rd president]

As you see, this is not "groundbreaking work", but the writings of Israel's original Zionist leaders. The book details how due to the geopolitical changes, especially since WWII, these writings were hidden as they became politically inconvenient. Yet even Israel's embarrassed leadership failed to make their earlier writings completely disappear.

#Yuyutsu

Your fantastic translation from Hebrew to English would leave Google for dead. Some very complicated words and phrases (philological research, forensic geography, swirling typhoon, unwritten customary laws) used that few would have the skill and ability you have shown to translate. Where did you acquire such expertise?

You actually have a copy of the book "in physical form"? Wow - why would you be so interested in acquiring a book published in Hebrew?

I did ask you who the author was. Can you give me his name?

That said you have outed yourself and blotted your copybook with this statement:
"The addition about the Arab army being all males, thus the population remaining Jewish even if women were raped, was my own logical conclusion. Has anyone ever heard of Arab women fighting wars (and raping the conquered men)?"

You represented this as your research when it was your opinion. Not intellectually honest.

Can the same be equally said of the other two allegations you made supposedly based on your research? I am not prepared to spend endless hours trying to find out. One such exposure taints all. At least you had the decency to come clean.

Dear David,

The relevant paragraph in my original post in answering your question ("are you really serious..."), was:

"The research shows that the conquering army could not have comprised of more than 46,000 soldiers, and these too were then moved to other fronts, so Jews were still the majority by far. Further, they were all men, so even if they fathered children, the mothers were still Jewish, so their descendants are also Jewish according to Jewish law."

As you see, there are two separate sentences there - the first being "The research shows that...", then after the sentence's period I added, "Further, they were all men...". Sorry if my style of writing confused you to misunderstand that "The research shows" also pertained to the second sentence.

Since your question did not and could not mention any research (because I have not mentioned any "research" prior to that point), there was no reason why I could be expected to limit my response only to research-results.

I will not answer personal questions. I got the book in one of my family-visits in Israel, it was many years ago so I can't remember why, perhaps because it was recommended to me, more likely it was given to me as gift. As for your other question, «I did ask you who the author was. Can you give me his name?», then sure, his name is Shlomoh Zand.

#Yuyutsu

So finally you reveal the author is Shlomo Zand - another Jew-hater.

Were you really quoting from his book in Hebrew? What a fraud you are. I bet your "translation" was cut and pasted from the English edition which came out in 2009.

The translator Yael Lotan won't be too happy with your misrepresenting her translation as yours.

The title of the book is a dead giveaway as to Zand's thinking- "The invention of the Jewish People"

Here is part of a review of his book:

"For 2,000 years, philosophers and historians have tried to understand the Jewish problem, others have tried to solve it by eliminating the Jews. No Jews, no problem! Sometimes it requires a non-expert to find a solution. Shlomo Zand, an Israeli professor of French history and cinema, is the latest contender to offer a final solution to the Jewish problem. His solution has French elegance: Prove that there are no Jews, get everyone to believe it, and then there will be no more Jewish problem. His book, "Matai ve'eych humtza ha'am hayehudi?" ("When and How was the Jewish People Invented?") was just published in Israel and is a best seller. By September, it will be published in French. By that time, Zand should be well on his way to solving the Jewish problem.

Zand is to be commended for a solution that at first glance, seems to have no mess, no fuss and no bother, a great improvement over previous models. No auto da fe is required, no charging Cossacks are needed, no gas chambers, no smelly crematoria. It is not even necessary to be baptized. Nothing! A coterie of non-Jewish Jewish sycophants have already written laudatory reviews of the book and interviews with the budding genius, in which he explains the workings of his ingenious invention for annihilation of the Jews."

My future response to you posting any further comments to my articles will be: "Outed Jew-hater and intellectual fraud. No response will be given to this comment"

Dear David,

I never read the English translation, only the original Hebrew.
"Matai ve'eych humtza ha'am hayehudi?" means "when and how was the Jewish nation invented?". Would you like to see the cover-image, perhaps over some nice background? but that too is unlikely to convince you. Or would you like to purchase the original book and compare the page numbers yourself, which I could not know had I only read the translation?

I do not automatically agree with all that Zand ever said, I just agree on that specific point that the ethnic origin of most so-called "Palestinians" is Judaic-Israeli. Slaughtering Zand's character does not change this fact, which was initially also acknowledged by Israel's greatest leaders.

Does it matter? It could matter in the early 20th century, but not any more because those fools turned their back on this great opportunity to join the Zionist movement, to become Israelis again and equal on their land. Instead they turned to violence and terrorism, trying, perhaps out of shame, to present themselves as more Arab than the Arabs. It's their loss!

#Yuyutsu

Outed Jew-hater and intellectual fraud. No response will be given to this comment.

Like it or not, humans are historically and genetically related to apes.
Most people are not bothered or offended by that fact because they are well aware of and convinced about the differences: I just wonder why the author is so upset about the fact, which he failed to refute, that the so-called "Palestinians" are his distant relatives.

#Yuyutsu

Outed Jew-hater and intellectual fraud. No response will be given to this latest comment.

The author would not respond because then he would need to admit to his false accusation as if I was quoting from the English translation. Nothing would probably convince him that I have, and quoted from, the original Hebrew book - nevertheless here is a picture of the book's cover for the benefit of the more reasonable readers of this thread:

https://ln5.sync.com/dl/96b0b3980/yqj7yjc7-tryes5x6-pub5asn5-phmqnmcd

#Yuyutsu

An outed Jew-hater and intellectual fraud. No response will be given to this latest comment.

«No response will be given to this latest comment.»

Nor was any sought.

It is understandable that the author's Gazan operators instructed him to lay low for now and not respond, lest his blood connection with the so-called "Palestinians" be further exposed and hinder his efforts to discredit Israel and the Jewish people over these pages as he customarily does every week or two, portraying them as ridiculously savage territory-lustful monsters, which they are not. Unlike the author and his parasitic extremist Jewish sect, most Israelis as well as most Jews are good and reasonable people.

#Yuyutsu

As an outed Jew-hater and intellectual fraud - no response will be given to this latest comment.