Thanks Graham. Fully concur. I am 82 and have never resorted to flu vaccines either. Maintain good levels of Vits C and D and zinc (oysters are a good source) and test for covid by checking my taste and smell with a jolly good red every evening. Death rates for Covid are low. It can be successfully treated with proven medical protocols, and natural immunity after surviving a dose of it appears to be far better and safer than these hastily concocted and long-term untested jabs being forced on the community. Strange how many variants are bursting forth, and the speed of spread of the latest correlates with the speed and spread of the jabs - funny that. We are breeding a race of people totally dependent on products of big-pharma companies. We are destroying societies, economies and plunging into indebtedness to overseas lenders who have no asset backing - they just issue credit. We need a total overhaul of the tax system to remove disincentives to employment or to make a profit. A good shot of the Liberty tax is the tonic we need.

I disagree with the author and the first respondent on this issue. Firstly, it is the responsibility of government and any authority which provides support to its people to have a duty of care for the health and wellbeing of those people. Secondly, the churches [and I am a Catholic], allows un-vaccinated people to attend Masses- which disproves the author's assertion of discrimination against the un-vaccinated.

Thirdly, the mandated vaccination program is controlled by the State Health Officer, who can over-ride the Premier's authority on health issues.

Lastly, if a human being cares about his fellow man, as Jesus Christ did, why shouldn't those who call themselves Christians, as followers of Christ, do something to help their neighbour?

You may have every right to protest and do what you think is right for you but you DO NOT have the right to endanger anyone else by your actions.

I didn't know that most churches had enough people left in their congregations to say who couldn't and who could give witness to their faith or serve voluntarily to help them survive. But, of course, church organisations , as opposed to Christianity, went over to the other side years ago

Speaking of churches going over to the other side.Isn't this the case with most/all of the dim-witted christian true believers who support and vote for the Orange Haired Monstrosity - aka the Trumpenfuhrer. Some/many of which wrongly support the very dark idea that it will be necessary to use violence to re-christianize Amerika or take it back from the "godless" Democrats.

Some even post electronic Christmas greeting (cards) with all of their family posing with guns and asking the "lord" to provide/send and perhaps even "bless" the ammunition.

The guns which were on display were not just relatively harmless old fashioned 22's which I used when rabbit shooting with my father in the Adelaide hills when I was a teenager.

Graham, about time you grew up and got a brain.
David

Some readers might be interested in what Archbishop Vigano in the USA has to say. A search will find his warning to the American people and friends. Short quote : Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop

“We all know how much the mainstream media has contributed to supporting the insane pandemic narrative, the interests that are at stake, and the goals of these groups of power: reducing the world population, making those who survive chronically ill, and imposing forms of control that violate the fundamental rights and natural liberties of citizens,” he says ...

VK3AUU,

How dare you make such a stupid comment against Graham.

How dare you make such a stupid comment against Graham.
ttbn,
Ditto !

Thanks, individual. I don't like to see our coordinator's good nature and tolerance of what some of us get up to abused like that. Pretty stupid too, when Graham decides who gets entry to OLO, although I don't think that a church organist who gives his time to something he believes in would be interested in revenge.

I think VKwhatsit should apologise, and disappear.

I don’t think I’ve got it wrong, but my understanding of the position of the Church is to obey Caesar.

This example is totally different to acquiescing with immorality and falling over to gay rights campaigners, as recently observed.

Dan

Of course Graham has a right to voice his opinion as do I. Just be carefull what you dare me to do. I think I have more concern for my fellow man than some others on this thread.
David

VK3AUU,

No. You can't brush it off that easily. Nobody who tells another that it's "about time you grew up and got a brain" believes that other people have a right to an opinion; nor do they have any respect for other people. 'Gauche' is the mildest description that could be applied to you. Shame on you.

Best to ignore VK3AUU, he’s mad.

Dan.

I can't see much sense in the anti-vax stance. My perspective is of antigenic challenge being something the immune system is always dealing with and vaccination a means of developing acquired immunity to dangerous pathogens without the need for exposure to them. I also think vaccination mandates draconian.

Dan,

Good diagnosis.

Fester,

You don't need to understand. People's personal choices are their business.

I am double vaxed and am having a booster in January. That's all I can do, and all I have to worry about. The non-vaccinated are not putting me at risk - that's why I got vaccinated - and I respect their right to make their own decisions about their health. I'm more concerned about what the hysterical political class and the "experts" come up with next. Wear a clove of garlic around our necks? Hop on one leg and and avoid the cracks in the footpath? These people don't have clue. Scaremongering and crossed fingers is all they are good at.

Cyclone

<< Secondly, the churches [and I am a Catholic], allows un-vaccinated people to attend Masses- which disproves the author's assertion of discrimination against the un-vaccinated. >>

Did you not read the article that you claim to disagree with? Graham specifically made that very point ... that the unvaccinated were still able to attend church. His 'assertion of discrimination' applied to the unvaccinated who work in churches and who are soon to be banned from doing so. His 'assertion of discrimination' stands.

ateday

<< You may have every right to protest and do what you think is right for you but you DO NOT have the right to endanger anyone else by your actions. >>

People who choose not to vaccinate are only endangering others if they also refuse to take other precautionary measures. Injections are only one of several ways to minimize Covid risk. Wearing masks and avoiding crowds and travel are other sensible precautions, as is strengthening ones own natural immunity. These precautions all require much more discipline and a much more sustained investment of time and money than merely baring ones arm for a pharmaceutical quick-fix. You have no right to claim that the unvaccinated are endangering others. You have no idea what other precautions they might be taking.

>Now, they are infecting the Christian churches even though they are illogical, ineffective, and un-Christian

Religion itself is illogical.

>The Work Health and Safety Act requires businesses to take reasonable steps to keep their premises healthy.

You seem to have fallen for the fallacy of whats required by law vs what you think is "logical" ? You can argue that in front of a Judge all day and lose, there's a reason Aristotle said law is mind without reason.

>If infectiousness is the critical factor, there is nothing to be achieved by excluding the unvaccinated

What ? That's an actual nonsense. Infection rates are much higher in the unvaccinated, hospitalisation rates are much higher and death rates are much higher at each stage an unvaccinate person puts their friends, family neighbors and the public at large in more danger. So if an unvaccinated person does catch Covid, they have a MUCH higher chance of giving it to someone else, perhaps a child or grandchild and killing them! Like in the case of Whooping Cough https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-18/baby-dies-of-whooping-cough-in-perth/6329244

I don't feel that unconformable with mandates, we've been having them since governance was invested. I can't go do electrical work at your church, for the same reason the electrician needs to be vaccinated, so they lower the risk of hurting others. Ensuring electricians are licensed won't stop people dying from electrical faults, it does however lower the risk.

Perhaps if this was a piece on organ recitals your opinion would carry some weight but unless you have a PhD in virology or a related field, overwhelmingly the experts hold a different view to yours. So you're going to need extraordinary evidence to refute the claims of most experts and none is presented here.

I don't think any of this has been argued in good faith, I can accept people feel uncomfortable with mandates, I do as well but then I did when they introduced compulsory seat belt laws, drink driving laws, gun legislation etc. The argument against mandates was lost the minute the country was colonised by the British.

Graham,
>There is little difference in the infectiousness of vaccinated or unvaccinated. >Vaccination may limit the severity of the disease, but it does not significantly
>limit the chances of catching it, or of transmitting it.

The above is incorrect. Vaccination not only significantly reduces the chance of catching it, but also enable the body to respond more quickly, reducing the time the person is infectious for.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Valley Guy,
>Religion itself is illogical.
Not in the case of Christianity, although it sometimes appears that way due to our limited understanding.

I would like to return to VK3AUU's 'get a brain' comment to Graham.

Surely it isn't very 'brainy' to insult the owner and coordinator of a blog you wish to continue using? Perhaps he is taking advantage of a Christian 'turning the other cheek', which would be very cynical and nasty.

Valley Guy,

I assume that your comment that religion is "illogical" is just your opinion, as you fail to back up your comment with reasons.

Is it all religions? There are vast differences between them. You owe a lot to Christianity for your way of life whether you choose to respect it or not: one of the advantages being your right to say pretty much what you wish to say in a country whose laws and mores are based on Christian principles.

Drink driving laws and seat belt mandates are different. Putting on a seat belt and not having a drink wont kill you, but vaccination might. I think the evidence in favour of covid vaccination is very strong. I had no hesitation in receiving both vaccinations and a booster, but I also accept that it is unrealistic to think that you can get 100% to vaccinate. There were anti-vaxers with polio and smallpox, but despite them herd immunity has prevailed. Preventive medicine is best done quietly as a fanfare amplifies an irrational dialogue of objection, and the behaviour of the press was shameful with its beatup of a handful of vaccination deaths, perhaps prompted by a desire to attack the PM. With omicron, the entire population may get exposed to covid, and hopefully with such an event the mandates will end.

What a stunning piece.

I can only start by quoting from Isaiah 5:20.

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

What a complete and utter rewriting of the Christian ethic of making personal sacrifices for others. In the case of the vaccine it is accepting the sacrifice of a small risk by getting vaccinated in the service of care of others in the community.

I'm sure Christ would be absolutely bewildered that those who would use his name to construct the kind of argument so contrary to one of the central tenets of the Christian faith.

If those propagating this nonsense were true Christians instead of Pharisees we would see encouragement to be vaccinated being called from every pulpit across the nation. Instead we get this.

This blaspheming is something I might expect from a hard right American version of Christianity where toxic individualism has polluted the faith to such a large degree. But to read it from an Australian 'mainstreamer' is really concerning and it needs to be called out.

This hopefully will be regarded by most for what it is - anti-Christian.

That is what I said in not so many words.
David

The author's assumption is that vaccinated people are almost as infectious as unvaccinated people, but this is correct only once vaccination wears off after 4-6 months, which is why there are boosters.

Boosters offer a significant reduction in infectiousness even with Omicron, but one cannot get a booster unless they first have their first two vaccine shots.

The logical position of organisations, including churches, would therefore be to require all staff to either be recently vaccinated in the last 4-6 months, either by a second vaccine shot, or by a booster, or by having recovered from the virus itself.

I agree that the position of the organist should be an exception, since they sit very far from the congregation - so long as their role does not require any further physical interaction with the church's staff and congregation.

Well what do you know!

The first recorded death from the Omicron variation was, wait for it, fully vaccinated.

With infection exploding why the hell don't they just issue Ivemectin kits as used by the Indian province of Uttar Pradesh, where they effectively wiped out the virus in a couple of weeks.

Who is getting a huge pay out to pursue the current policy?

Hasben. There were other complications in the death of that person.
David

Hmmm, and vaccinated people died from smallpox too. Managing an infection, even with effective treatments, is an inferior management strategy.

"That is what I said in not so many words"
VK3AUU

No you didn't. You just abused Graham.

He has got broad shoulders.
David

Nothing we have been told by the political class (at the behest of bureaucrats) appears to be true. Covid is out of control. Our politicians are out of control. The future is grim. What will happen in Winter when they have lost control in the Summer? Everything the so-called authorities and 'experts' have insisted on, all their advice, has turned to shite. That's what you have brought on yourselves, folk's, by allowing a few incompetent dictators to rule your lives and thinking "she'll be right".

I am amazed that people are still attending mass entertainment, eating out, travelling, and so on just because these incompetent bastards say you can with certain conditions. Start thinking for yourselves.

I'm re-reading the Benedict Option.

VK3AUU,

Dan was right. You are mad. Certainly unable to comprehend that because someone has "broad shoulders" if is not OK for a coward, knowing he can get away with it, to abuse a decent person.

ttbn

<< Certainly unable to comprehend that because someone has "broad shoulders" if is not OK for a coward, knowing he can get away with it, to abuse a decent person. >>

I agree with you, telling Graham to grow up and get a brain was indeed a juvenile and abusive comment.

Before you criticise the speck in another's eye, however, you need to first remove the plank in your own. You call out others for abuse and yet you yourself are quick to abuse when it suits. My support on another thread for Assange, for example, has seen you label me as 'naive' and a 'lowlife' and my opinion on his situation a 'manic blurt'. All these comments are personally abusive. Why call out abuse of Graham and yet continue to abuse me? Is it that Graham's status on this site counts and mine doesn't? Or is it that Graham is 'decent' and I'm not?

You've also demanded on that same thread that I provide sources and yet you yourself steadfastly refuse to do so. Apparently, that's because I claim to have some sort of 'special insight', which you of course, the ever-humble contributor, would never do! Your arrogant and patronising explanation to me on that thread clearly demonstrates the confused mental contortions you will stoop to. << As for what I post, I have given my OPINION on what I think should happen to Assange. Some people will agree with me, others will disagree with me. No problems with that. And I don't have to 'verify' my opinions. Nobody has to. But, when you claim to have special insights into everything, as you invariably do, you need to expect requests for proof. >>

When did I ever claim or imply that I have 'special insights into everything'?

I suggest you closely examine your hypocritical double standards and do something about them.

Dear Graham,
Congratulations on writing such a succinct and meaningful article. I agree strongly with all your assertions. I believe that Vaccine Mandates are morally and philosophically wrong and have no useful place in our churches.
James17.

Dear James17,

Why?

Our churches are among the most discriminatory places in our country and about to become even more so if Scomo gets his way.

It should be morally wrong for a non-vaxxed person to expect the rest of us to labour under restrictions with them.

Given that Graham didn't use a single scripture to support his stance I'm wondering if you had anything to back up your statement "that Vaccine Mandates are morally and philosophically wrong and have no useful place in our churches."

Something from Christ would be good but if not anything which clearly supports your stance.

Meanwhile in keeping with Isiah here is the next verse to the one I posted earlier. This really does speak to those who are gleaning their vaccine reluctance from facebook while disregarding those with far more expertise and experience.

"21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!"

Forget Christ....I wanna see the big guy.....the one Moses conjured up when faced with a rebellion

And another conspiracy theorist succumbs :-(

https://news.in-24.com/news/436620.html