“The bitter pill”

Added to all the above, is the total lack of trust in our own politicians.

Nothing and nobody can be trusted.

The new world!

Dan

While the US, UK, EU and Canada have declared that they will not recognise the Taliban regime, what passes for a foreign minister in Australia said she would wait and see if the Taliban lived up to its promises on women, etc, before a decision would be made!

Only to be expected from a Morrison minister, I suppose.

As one commentator observes, the Morrison government seems to be treating foreign policy the same way it does domestic policy - pragmatically, without values.

Sorry, Graham. Se no upsides in any of this! Just humiliation and loss of credibility!
Alan B.

The 20th. anniversary of September 11 is comes less than a month after this Afghan humiliation. Something to think about.

TBH Alan, I'm pessimistic too. But what does wallowing in misery achieve? And TTBN, I'm shocked that our Defence Minister would say anything so inane, but then when it came to bad speeches about this situation I picked on Biden, because his was the most relevant. But Morrison's was just about as bad. No empathy. And no anger. That will be his downfall - people think he fakes it all the time.

Hi Graham,

Afghan Australians must be fearing for their
families left behind and what the Taliban's
control will mean for women and the Hazara
community in Afghanistan.

It's a complex situation. We were there for
20 years and as many have said - this was
inevitable. Our governments should have seen
this coming and they could have prepared for
it better. And it could have been done better
But it's easy to criticize. It will now be up
to whether we should recognize the Taliban?
Do we try to protect human rights by engaging
with the Taliban or do we refuse to recognize
a repressive regime?

Power brings it's own legitimacy and as someone
pointed out - I think it was Stan Grant - that
in the West we have no problem forging alliances
of convenience with despotic regimes when it
suits us. Look at China, Russia, even Saudi Arabia.

As for Scott Morrison? Hasn't our PM agreed that
Australia will be taking Afghan refugees?
Not sure of the number - but surely that's a good
thing?

I see Biden is still hiding.

Sorry, Graham. Can only see the wasted lives and resources plus the betrayal of former allies.

Down to me, would continue, but with a gorilla type war of hit and run where there were no uniforms or rules of engagement. And where anyone carrying a weapon was fair game and Taliban!! And from where unmanned drones would be the principal weapon that could be directed to the identified target by our concealed civilian eyeballs!
Alan B.

Thanks for the article Graham.

I can't help but think that we just don't understand the Afghani people- similar to the complexity of Vietnam. Sometimes leaders just need to act even if it's wrong. There is also the difficulty of attacking an embedded enemy- sounds like a job for better command and control systems. Afghanistan (and the Middle East) have always been contentious in a sense being located between the historically dominant European and Far Eastern regimes- land locked. As they say in Charlie Wilson's War "We'll see!".

I fear this is a lot more than a hiccup on the road to ultimate redemption. It is more like an inflexion point in history - more Berlin wall than Benghazi embassy. Russia was already a spent power in 1989.. The fall of the wall was a marker that confirmed it.

This looks to me like a marker that confirms the passing of the US hegemonic period. Prepare for the Chinese century.

US society, beset by lunacy like Critical Race Theory and social battle between the managerial class and the productive class, is no longer capable of projecting power. It is said the US Kabul embassy spent more time preparing for Gay Pride month than for the exodus from Kabul.

The US is led by a cabal of people who fancy themselves foreign policy experts but have been making foreign policy errors for two generations. The US military, formidable on paper, is no longer capable of fighting any determined enemy.

At the very least this is the equivalent of Saigon 1975. An ally abandoned, the US and its military humiliated, a people war-weary and not prepared to venture forth any time soon. Remember how that played out. The fall of Cambodia and Laos; African states racing to align with the strong horse (Russia); the loss of Iran and the further humiliation at that embassy; the Russians so emboldened that they invaded Afghanistan.

The US is in retreat, led by a bumbling fool who heads a team and party whose first priority is their rather than their nation's welfare.

The Chinese are already flexing their muscle and pressuring Taiwan who must now doubt the value of US support.

The humiliations after Saigon were arrested by the rise of Reagan and perhaps the US will find a new (or used) saviour. But the ruling elite demonstrated they were prepared to subvert democracy once to protect their privilege and its unlikely they'll permit an outsider to take the reins again.

We, in Australia, have to ponder how we fit into a Chinese hegemony. I doubt we have the leaders to make that assessment

Oh come on, what an off kilter and jaundiced reading of the situation.

Australia fulfilled every part of the role it set itself and succeeded admirably.

There was no threat to this country from the Afghan people at all. There was no ability to strike at Australia nor was there any intention.

Our attendance was purely to maintain an alliance with the US which would enable to count on them if things really did threaten us. Turnbull having Trump take our refugees was an example of cashing in on that relationship.

I have spoken to returned servicemen who were well aware of their primary role. They knew they weren't putting themselves in harms way to save Australia from the Taliban, it was to shore up our relationship with the strongest military power in the world.

Sure this country invited increased home grown terrorist threat by being involved, but that was a risk our government was willing to take to honour the alliance.

If there are lessons here it should be around the deeply corrosive nature of corruption and a people's capacity to contemplate supporting of far left or far right, or deeply religious leadership.

The Vice film was highly illustrative of who the US picked to prosecute their mission in Afghanistan. The deep disillusion by on the US ground troops and commanders who were ordered to take a blind eye to the corruption and abuses of those they allowed power in that country showed there was likely only one outcome here. It is really worth a watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI&ab_channel=VICE

“Even when guys were abducting and raping young boys and murdering them, nothing happened as a result of his reports. He was reporting up everything he saw to over 200 people in the chain of command, nothing was ever done.”

And we certainly shouldn't be stepping away from the war crimes and terror wrought by our own troops in Afghanistan. Were the Taliban really going to look that scary after that?

The Taliban secured hearts and minds and ultimately saw off the invading forces. They have their country back. Just as the excesses of the Shaq in Iran and the CIA lead coup sowed the seeds for support for the Ayatollah, so this played itself out.

As to picking on Biden instead of Trump my god. It was the Trump organisation who reached out to the Taliban and negotiated a full withdrawal by May. That Biden didn't tweek around the edges to your satisfaction hardly allows you to point the finger at him more than Trump. What a ridiculous proposition.

Finally to the rest of the grab bag of issues you have tossed in to this the one which is particularly galling is: “What we are seeing in Afghanistan is an international version of defunding the police”. No we aren't. What we are seeing is a people accepting an alternative to abusive invaders in their country. That simple, the lesser of two evils.

Well said Steele.
It is an unarguable fact that the war against the people of Afghanistan accomplished nothing beyond causing untold suffering and making the weapon manufacturing companies and their shareholders (aka the war pigs with their snouts in the trough) richer.

As everybody knows never-ending wars are good for business, especially when generated by abstract ideals such as the open ended "war against terror". War is of course organized terror.

Meanwhile why not check out the essay by Stan Goff titled In Praise of Joe Biden - Goff otherwise loathes everything about Slippery Joe.

And by the way this tragic situation has zero/zilch/nothing to do with "wokeness".

All this proves is that the woke west is not capable of fighting a war against guerrilla warfare. In the situation where even when they know without any doubt that a group are guerrillas, our troops can take no action against them, unless they are actually shooting at them at the moment.

Under the rules of engagement the western troops had no chance of winning. They should never been expected to do the impossible. Yes the desire to get Osama bin Laden & al-Qaeda was probably irresistible, but to try to win a place like Afghanistan was ridiculous.

Afghanistan is a place of fluid alliances, obviously not understood by most Ozzies. Your enemy today is your friend to morrow, & your enemy next week, none can ever be trusted. As seen with the well trained & very well equipped "army", 4 times the size of Taliban forces, they only fight when they feel like it, & have something personal to gain.

Add the fact that most Afghan men hated the freedom the west demanded for their women, & they were a lost cause from the start.

Yes Ozzie & Pommy troops cleared communist insurgents out om Malaya in the immediate post WW11 period, but since the woke brigade got into power, it is now impossible with the restrictions placed on our troops, & should never be tried again.

Dear Hasbeen,

How's it going old cock?

So the Afghans saw off the Russians because the Russians were too woke?

See how ludicrous you are yet again.

There'll be plenty of time over the next months and years to try to work out what went wrong in Afghanistan in general and particularly in the last two months. Let's face it, there is plenty of blame to go around, from Bush and Powell through Obama's missed opportunities, the military revolt against Trump and the debacle that is the present Whitehouse.

In the end, it is clear that nation building isn't possible. At the least you can't take a backward tribal society and turn it into a modern liberal democracy in a generation. The ambitions were too high and the commitment too low. The original aim was to get al-Queda and bin Laden. Once that was achieved, the mission should have been called off.

To find out just how badly this was handled, we are going to have to wait until those involved, who have the most to hide, have moved on. Clearly the intelligence and military leadership failed badly and that will eventually become apparent, but only after that leadership moves, or is moved, on.

Over the coming weeks the mainstream media will work overtime to salvage the Biden presidency from the disaster. Six months from now we'll be told how this was the best organised retreat since Washington left New York. And the anxiously gullible will buy it.

But its hard to polish this turd, particularly as everyone is trying to point the finger at anyone else. The military is now saying Biden ignored its advice. It now seems that a rapid response group put together by Trump/Pompeo for just this sort of problem was defunded by Biden. Despite claims that Biden just implemented Trump's planned withdrawal, even now that is being proven wrong.

As things now stand, the Biden presidency is unravelling. Polls show that 10% of those who voted for him, now regret their decision (and that's before they even poll all those in cemeteries who were his greatest supporters).

Unfortunately for the Democrats and the nation, the alternative to Biden is Harris and that's no alternative.

Yes they were SR, & you know it.

They like the yanks went down the hearts & minds path, a total waste of time in a place where loyalty is only bought until a better offer is received.

Bet your boots, & socks if you wear them, the CCP will go through the place like a dose of salts, if the Taliban don't toe the line as demanded.

It seems that a Taliban takeover is not the done deal as being
projected by the media etc. In the provinces the Taliban is hated.
To disturb the Taliban takeover the World Bank has refused its weekly
shipping of millions of dollars to the Afghan National Bank.
The Taliban are not recognised as the Government.
The Bank chairman said the bank has almost no cash and no way to get any.
There has been a run on the Bank in the last weeks and their normal
holdings are depleted.
The lack of cash will cause much distress as no one will be able to buy food etc.
The borrowing arrangements with the World Bank are not with the Taliban.

Though SR tries to apportion some blame for this cock up to Trump, the reality is that this disaster was entirely the responsibility of the Biden regime. This with the catastrophe occurring on the southern border is causing Biden's approval rating to plummet.

The greatest problem facing Biden's presidency is the midterm elections at which he could possibly lose both the senate and congress and become a lame duck.

Bazz,

I wouldn't get too excited about the banking arrangements in Taliban-istan. They can always revert to the policies of our own government and just start printing money.

Alternatively, they have China next door who are more than willing to fund the new government in return for two things - access to the mineral wealth there and that the Taliban abandon the Uighers.

_____________________________________________________________

Things continue to unravel both in Washington and Kabul. Indeed things are so bad in DC that even the tame press whose sole job is to hide the ineptitude of the present government, have given up the task and are now mildly critical of the moron in the oval office. Wonders of wonders. But it won't last.

__________________________________________________________________

In the worst timed political tour since Caesar decided to go to the Senate house on the Ides of March,VP Harris is going to Vietnam is a week or so to demonstrate that "America is back". Wow. As the comedians say, timing is everything.

Mhaze, yes they will have to get more paper currency, but they
probably do not have suitable presses or paper and cannot pay for
them, so the ever helpful Chinese will step in and then have Afghanistan
by the Sh & Curl.

Shadowminister,

How pathetic can you get.

Your president bowed to the Taliban's demand that 5,000 Taliban prisoners some of whom were their most hardened fighters be released before they would agree to any negotiations.

The “great deal maker” he was somehow decided that was a good idea.

This was the CNN report from a year ago.

“The release of prisoners is part of an agreement signed by the US and the Taliban in February, which sets into motion the potential of a full withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and an end to America's longest-fought war.

American forces removed the Taliban from power in 2001 after the September 11 terrorist attacks, which the US linked to al Qaeda, a group that operated under the Taliban regime's protection in Afghanistan.

The February agreement called for the release of 5,000 Taliban prisoners and 1,000 "prisoners of the other side" on the first day of the negotiations between the Afghan government and the Taliban.
"The relevant sides have the goal of releasing all the remaining prisoners over the course of the subsequent three months. The United States commits to completing this goal," the agreement said.”

So shadowminister, can you let me know how many of the thousands of prisoners released do you think were part of the group which took control of Kabul so quickly this month?

Your fawning over your president prevents you from being the least bit critical of him, we get that, but surely there must be some part of you that can recognise how much of this was his doing.

" can you let me know how many of the thousands of prisoners released do you think are part of the group which took control of Kabul "

No idea. No one knows. But we do know that one of the leaders of that group was released by the Obamessiah in return for a traitor who Obama tried to propagandise as a hero.

SR,

All of this was known by your president's regime. A few days before the withdrawal he was spouting on about how many well equipped Afghans there were and that there and that there was no danger of collapse.

Either your president is incompetent or a colossal liar or both.

Shadowminister and mhaze,

Good God you two take the cake. Your president set this up. He did the lopsided deal with the Taliban, he agreed to the release of 5,000 Taliban fighters, he stuck with his promise to leave Afghanistan, but here you are trying to dump this on Biden.

You really are both utterly delusional and totally incapable of independent thinking.

SR

You are so demented in your hatred of Trump that you can't see the obvious. Trump set the withdrawal in motion 18 months ago and the withdrawal was always going to be messy. Biden who has been CinC for more than 6 months managed to turn an ordered withdrawal into a shambolic rout.

The accountability for this monumental cock-up lies squarely with Biden.

shadowminister,

Let's change just one word.

'You are so demented in your love of Trump that you can't see the obvious. Trump set the withdrawal in motion 18 months ago and the withdrawal was always going to be messy.'

What on earth do you think was going to happen. Trump signed over Afghanistan to the Taliban, that is an undeniable fact even for you. It was suppose to happen in May. Biden bought extra months.

What you lot seem to have be wanting was the Afghan army to buy some time for the US to clear out before the Taliban took full control. Why or earth do you think they should have put their lives on the line to do this knowing American support was quickly coming to an end?

The fact that this has not been far more bloody has a lot to do with how it is being managed right now.

For you lot to be attempting to call Biden out for what he inherited from Trump is just utterly partisan crap.

This is standard SR. He needs to defend Biden and blame it all on Trump so he finds some inconsequential piece of data which he doesn't even try to prove is important, but asserts that it is. And then he pretends that this piece of inconsequential data proves what he already wanted to be true.

Of course, in SR's Trump Derangement Syndrome, everything is Trump's fault. If I started thread on the extinction of the dinosaurs, SR would pop up with some utterly irrelevant data that proved, in his mind, that it was all Trump's fault.

The fact is the current disaster in Kabul is caused by Biden - or more exactly by the puppet-masters behind the scenes telling the demented fool what to say and think.

The Biden exit is nothing like the proposed Trump exit. I don't care to go into detail because SR isn't interested anyway but two major differences:

1. Trump was planning on being out by May for strategic purposes. Biden chose September for propaganda purposes.

2. Trump's plan called for incremental steps which had to be met by the Taliban meeting certain criteria. The next step only occurred if the Taliban complied with their commitments. The Biden plan was to pack up and leave and hope to hell it all worked out.

There's much more such as the US maintenance of the Afghan airforce, but as I said SR isn't interested. He just wants to find an excuse to exonerate his man.

Perhaps he should tell the Chinese who are laughing at Biden. Or the UK parliament that holds him in contempt. Or the Afghan soldiers who are openly mocking him. Or the US intelligence community who are leaking all over to prove it was all Biden's fault.

Dear mhaze,

Blather.

Not even a single sourced quote, just flim flam likely off some hard right blog you use for evidence nowadays.

Trump set up the hand over to the Taliban and they went laughing all the way to the bank. He got zero significant concessions from them and allowed them to significantly boost their ranks with prisoners he ordered released.

What other outcome was possible after that?

Again SR you are just making assertions without any evidence. For all you know all 5000 went back to the home provinces and weren't around Kabul at the appropriate time. In any case, Kabul fell without a shot fired, so whether there was one fighter or 10000 matters not in the least.

You say Trump got "He got zero significant concessions"....

1. He got 1000 Afghan security guards.
2. He got a cease fire.
3. He got a commitment to "to end its [Taliban ] support for terrorist groups including Al Qaeda."
4. A commitment not to attack or allow others to attack any coalition troops. (Trump cut the talks off at one point when one person was killed.) No US soldier died following the agreement.

All that was pissed out the window when sleepy Joe reneged on the agreement.

Additionally it was predicated on further talks, which required further commitments from Taliban. And Trump told them "“If bad things happen, we’ll go back with a force like no one’s ever seen.”

SR I get it. You can't bear that your so-called president has screwed up this badly and desperately want to blame Trump. But when you say Trump got nothing for the 5000 you'e just making it up in the hope that no one will notice your deception. But I always do.

BTW, do you still think the evidence against outdoor transmission of the WuFlu is a crock. Couldn't help but notice you slinked away from the thread when that bit of deception fell apart for you

Dear mhaze,

You really are being utterly disingenuous.

You said earlier: "The US is in retreat, led by a bumbling fool who heads a team and party whose first priority is their rather than their nation's welfare."

It was your president who sounded the retreat from Afghanistan yet you are trying to make this all about Biden. Bollocks

SR,

Your sycophantic adoration of Biden is sickening. Biden inherited 6 months ago an Afghanistan that was firmly in the grip of the US but with a ceasefire negotiated with the Taliban and a roadmap to withdrawal. He was under no obligation to follow the legacy plan any more than any of the previous plans he ditched. Only a few left whinge suck-ups are sufficiently deluded to think that the blame for this monumental cock-up belongs with anyone other than Biden.

Biden's approval rating has plummeted into the negative showing that the American people know who is responsible.

SR writes " It was your president who sounded the retreat.."

There is a monumental difference between a withdrawal and a retreat.

Trump, indeed pretty much the whole of the US establishment, wanted out of this war. It was a bi-partisan issue in the last 'election'. An orderly withdrawal in March was all set to go but was replaced by this shambolic retreat in September. That's all down to Biden.

The criticism of Biden and his band of screw-ups isn't about leaving Afghanistan but about the way it was done. They utterly misunderstood the strength of the Taliban. They utterly misunderstood the strength of the Afghan army. They utterly misunderstood the effects of withdrawing air support for the Afghan forces. They utterly miscalculated how quickly things would unravel. They got the order of exit utterly wrong. How anyone thought pulling the military out first and the civilians later was a sensible plan defies understanding.

Biden et al screwed up mightily. They and the US are a laughing stock although I wonder how long people will be laughing if civilians start dying.

Dear mhaze,

“The criticism of Biden and his band of screw-ups isn't about leaving Afghanistan but about the way it was done. They utterly misunderstood the strength of the Taliban. They utterly misunderstood the strength of the Afghan army.”

Well no they patently didn't.

What was obviously not clear to Biden and the CIA was how much Trump signing the country over to the Taliban a year ago would have emboldened them nor how much it would have gutted the existing Afghan army of any willingness to resist the inevitable.

"Well no they patently didn't."

Oh well...if you say so. Perhaps some evidence might help your assertions.

But I'm sure all those USians still behind enemy lines, not to mention the Afghans who helped the previous government and want out, will be pleased to learn that Biden didn't screw up and everything is going to plan.

SR creates this fantasy world where no matter what happened it was Trump's fault. Apparently, in this fantasy world the Afghan Army failed because of something Trump did 12 months ago. Nothing to do with Biden - perish the thought.

Well some might beg to differ.....
"Afghan Military Officers: We Fought Hard but Biden 'Abandoned' Us"

http://www.newsweek.com/afghan-military-officers-we-fought-hard-biden-abandoned-us-1621473

"While the Afghan Army had one of Central Asia's largest fleet of choppers, he said, virtually all the mechanics and maintenance crew were U.S. contractors, many of which were withdrawn months ago. Helicopter repair facilities and spare-parts warehouses were largely located at Bagram Air Base, which was shuttered by the U.S. military several weeks before the Taliban took control. Fuel, once delivered by the U.S., was also in short supply. "The Americans abandoned us," the 36-year-old Afghan National Army lieutenant colonel told Zenger. "The plan was not to abandon a country in a situation like this."

Now it may be true that these people have reason to diminish their errors and lay the blame elsewhere, it is also true that what they say has also been said by some in the US and concurs with the advice Biden was given 4 months ago.

But in the TDS fantasy-land, none of that matters.

Dear mhaze,

My God, really?

Trump completely ignored the Afghani government when he waltzed off to do a deal with the Taliban a year ago. He had agreed to their demand to have 5,000 fighters released before they would enter into talks.

And somehow you are attempting to manufacture some kind of equivalency with the actions of Biden. You are a psycophantic deluded fool if you think this isnt directly as a result of Trump's actions.

"You are a psycophantic deluded fool if you think this isnt directly as a result of Trump's actions, " says SR as he desperately tries to avoid seeing any of the evidence.

"Members of Parliament[UK]... attacked Biden for his "shameful" criticism of the Afghan National Army and said it was "dishonourable" to blame Afghanistan's fighting force for the Taliban's takeover."

"Several top-level UK government officials have slammed President Joe Biden’s gross incompetence in Afghanistan, warning he “may have condemned the world to Chinese domination in the future.”

"Members in the House of Lords blasted Biden for handing the country over to the Taliban with his botched withdrawal."

" the British Houses of Parliament decided to hold Biden’s handling of the situation in contempt, with lawmakers condemning his withdrawal plan as “catastrophic” and “shameful,”

"In her sharpest attack on Biden’s decision yet, the German chancellor suggested that the Biden administration’s hasty and messy withdrawal was motivated by “domestic political reasons” rather than geostrategic necessities."

More "psycophantic deluded fool[s]"??

Dear mhaze,

Absolutely none of the quotes contradicts anything I have said.

Biden is the most visible target at the moment, expecially because Trump has steered away from any ownership of it, but that hardly absolves your president.

"In her sharpest attack on Biden’s decision yet, the German chancellor suggested that the Biden administration’s hasty and messy withdrawal was motivated by “domestic political reasons” rather than geostrategic necessities."

Mmmm, 'domestic political reasons', I would certainly agree with the chancellor here but her aim is a little off.

“The move would allow US President Donald Trump to show that he has brought troops home ahead of the US presidential election in November. “
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51689443

The place was always going to be handed over to the Taliban because they were the ones Trump did the deal with, a deal he quite deliberately left the Afghan government out of.

One of your quotes: "Members in the House of Lords blasted Biden for handing the country over to the Taliban with his botched withdrawal."

What bollocks.

So mate, what did Biden need to do to stop this going down the path that Trump set for that poor nation?

Look your defence of your president is utterly deluded. Right wingers are always seeking to deflect and blame others but you seem to really believe this stuff. Wake up.

OK SR everyone is wrong except you.

The Afghan military blame Biden.
The UK parliament blames Biden
The Europeans blame Biden
The US military blame Biden
The CIA blame Biden.

But you blame anyone other than Biden based on precisely nothing other than your desire to not look like you backed a monumental dill.

SR

Biden has been in office for 7 months he has access to all the information and the officers etc to assess the situation on the ground. This balls-up is entirely his responsibility. He could have walked away from Trump's cease-fire but Biden wanted the withdrawal even more than Trump. A prisoner swap 18 months ago is not the excuse for incompetence today.

Along with the southern border disaster, Biden couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.

Dear mhaze,

Rubbish. It should have been written like this:

The Afghan military blame the Americans.
The UK parliament blames Americans.
The Europeans blame the Americans.
The US military blame the administrations.
The CIA blame the administrations.

Biden was quite clear about his decision:

“When I came into office, I inherited a deal that President Trump negotiated with the Taliban. Under his agreement, U.S. forces would be out of Afghanistan by May 1, 2021. The choice I had to make as your president was either to follow through on that agreement or be prepared to go back to fighting the Taliban in the middle of the spring fighting season. It was only a cold reality of either following through on the agreement to withdraw our forces or escalating the conflict, and sending thousands more American troops back into combat in Afghanistan, lurching into the third decade of conflict. I stand squarely behind my decision.”

As the NY Times reports:

“Intelligence agencies have long predicted an ultimate Taliban victory, even before President Donald J. Trump and Mr. Biden decided to withdraw forces. Those estimates provided a range of timelines. While they raised questions about the will of the Afghan security forces to fight without Americans by their side, they did not predict a collapse within weeks.
But in recent months, assessments became ever more pessimistic as the Taliban made larger gains, according to current and former officials. The reports this summer questioned in stark terms the will of Afghan security forces to fight and the ability of the Kabul government to hold power. With each report of mass desertions, a former official said, the Afghan government looked less stable.”

So we have a few poms and Europeans saying the Yanks should not have withdrawn, that the country should not have been given up to the Taliban. I don't see any American quotes from you. I suspect that is because the withdrawal has reasonably wide spread support in that country.

shadowminister,

Your president basically handed the place to the Taliban. Do you support his decision or not?

SR,

Your addled president handed Afghanistan to the Taliban.

Do you support his monumental cock up.

So now we have SR just re-writing history.

For example, the Afghans say specifically that Biden abandoned them and SR just re-writes that to have them saying the American abandoned them which SR then twists to mean Trump abandoned them.

Its a strange way to look at the world. IF the world doesn't comply with the way you want it to be, just re-imagine it and demand that that is the way it really is.

Some more examples of people seeing the world for what it is rather than the way SR wants it to be....

"Susan Rice has been telling allies on the Hill that this is one of the most incompetent national security disasters in American history, said Obama’s “f$$k up” quote is an understatement now."

For those who don't know, Susan Rice was one of the Obamessiah's spokespersons and is now one of Biden's closest advisors. The "f$$k up" quote is where Obama advised "Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f$$k things up".

"Historians aren’t actually sure that Nero caused or neglected a fire that consumed much of ancient Rome. Historians, however much they’d like to, won’t be able to deny that President Joe Biden bears full responsibility for America’s humiliating retreat from Afghanistan and our neglect of the tens of thousands who aided us and now face torture and death from the Taliban."

"Bret Stephens writes that “every enemy will draw the lesson that the United States is a feckless power,” and “every ally — Taiwan, the Baltic States, Israel, Japan — will draw the lesson that it is on its own.”

“Aug. 18, 2020 — In releasing a report that covered activity in Afghanistan from April 1, 2020, to June 30, 2020, the Defense Department inspector general’s office says, “The Taliban did not appear to uphold its commitment to distance itself from terrorist organizations in Afghanistan. UN and U.S. officials reported that the Taliban continued to support al-Qaeda, and conducted joint attacks with al-Qaeda members against Afghan National Defense and Security Forces.”
Factcheck.org

So much for your assurances earlier.

Washington Post: “It was Trump’s fondest hope — or dangerous obsession — in his final days in office to withdraw the last U.S. troops from Afghanistan, as the fulfillment of his “America First” ideals. In November 2020, as Trump fought his flailing battle to void the results of a presidential election, he signed an executive order mandating that U.S. troops leave Afghanistan by Jan. 15, 2021.”

Just imagine the bum fight had that happened.

And this from you: "Susan Rice has been telling allies on the Hill that this is one of the most incompetent national security disasters in American history, said Obama’s “f$$k up” quote is an understatement now."
Little commentary snippets from a far right pundits twitter feed are hardly anything to hang your hat on are they?

So mate, you still haven't told us how this scenario would have gone down given Trump's executive order to have troops out in January?

SR,

How this would have played out under Trump is a moot point. Trump may or may not have made the same mistakes, but was not in charge.

Biden however, cocked up royally and on top of that instead of being contrite tried to blame everyone else. The result is that his ratings are plummeting.