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The Forum > Article Comments > Jerusalem: a flashpoint for conflict or microcosm of peace > Comments

Jerusalem: a flashpoint for conflict or microcosm of peace : Comments

By Alon Ben-Meir, published 14/5/2021

There will be no Israeli-Palestinian peace unless East Jerusalem becomes the capital of a Palestinian state while the city remains united.

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The idea of any sort of shared national arrangement or two state
solution is impossible as the Palestinians want all the Jews dead.
They will accept that all Jews be expelled from the middle east.
It really is as simple as that. After all the Koran says so.

Historically it is the Arabs who are the occupiers.
Around 760 AD Mohammads' successors set out from Arabia to conquer
Mesopotamia to spread Islam which includes Jerusalem, Judea etc.
Anyone who thinks there is a solution while Islam exists is wrong.
It would be blasphemy to share the land. Once land is occupied by
moslems, it always remains Islamic land. That is the crux of the problem.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 14 May 2021 10:17:56 AM
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Flashpoint!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 14 May 2021 10:30:54 AM
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The cause of the current unpleasantness is the recently delayed elections in the West Bank. Abbas was concerned he'd lose to Hamas and so called the elections off. But he needed a reason.

In the M-E anything bad done by an Arab is blamed on Israel. So Abbas claimed the election had to be postponed because Israel might not let Arabs in Jerusalem vote. There wasn't the slightest evidence for that claim, but that doesn't matter these days. The eviction story was then used to get the locals fired up.

Hamas, who doesn't need any encouragement to kill a few Jews, then got involved so as to bolster their credentials whenever the election is held.

Meanwhile, Biden is fawning all over Iran to try to get them to agree to a new treaty and Iran has realised that the US is back to being a paper tiger. So they offer courage and material support to Hamas who then do the bidding of their pay masters.

Its all about geopolitics with the Palestinians mere willing cannon fodder.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 14 May 2021 11:12:41 AM
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Oh yes, I forgot to mention that the original fuss was about those Arabs
that are to be expelled from the houses they are living in, the reason
has not been mentioned here, but the BBC did let it out;
They have refused to pay their rent !
The reason is because their landlord is a Jew and Islam requires that
he support the Moslems. It was either that or they were claiming
ownership which was why it was in court.
It seems that the houses were orininally owned by an Arab who sold them to a Jew.
Sharia Law prohibits moslems from selling land to infidels.
That maybe what it is all about and that caused the original riots.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 14 May 2021 11:45:51 AM
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An insolvable problem. Or perhaps unsolvable.
Posted by ateday, Friday, 14 May 2021 12:25:13 PM
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Dear Bazz,

If you want to support the toxic zionism which is at the root of all this then it would be good if you at least stopped short of telling their lies.

"In March, the Israeli authorities demolished, forced people to demolish, or seized 58 Palestinian-owned structures across the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. This resulted in the displacement of 81 people, including 42 children, and otherwise affected the livelihoods, or access to services, of nearly 200 others. All the structures were located in Area C or East Jerusalem and were targeted due to a lack of building permits, which are nearly impossible for Palestinians to obtain."
http://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/west-bank-demolitions-and-displacement-overview-march-2021

Dear mhaze,

Slight correction. It was the Israelis who are concerned about Abbas losing. He has tried to step down several times and the Israelis won't let him.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 14 May 2021 12:25:46 PM
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"He has tried to step down several times and the Israelis won't let him."

Yeah, well we all know that anything bad that happens in the M-E is Israel's fault. </sarc>

But exactly how do they stop him retiring if that's what he wants?
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 14 May 2021 2:06:04 PM
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"There will be no Israeli-Palestinian peace unless..."

But this is the author's private desire, not what these people want!

Should peace prevail, both leaderships would definitely lose their hold on power, so of course this is not something they want. Especially now when their power is fragile (for unrelated reasons), war is their only hope and both are very keen to keep fighting. Possibly, they could have even secretly coordinated it in advance.

Should the people there want peace like the author, they could find 100's of ways to have it, they wouldn't need the author's advice.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 14 May 2021 5:13:36 PM
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2003

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Mahmoud Abbas submitted his resignation as Palestinian prime minister yesterday, citing differences with Yasser Arafat, and accusing Israel of sabotaging his reforms and the United States of failing to provide him support. His action placed in doubt the future of an American peace plan.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-te.mideast07sep07-story.html

2015
“Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has allegedly notified sources that he will step down from his position within two months, Channel 1 reported Sunday.
According to PA officials, Abbas's surprising announcement of retirement is due to fatigue.
Speculation for the 80-year-old's reported plans to resign also center around his failure to make progress in peace negotiations with Israel. “
http://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/report-abbas-to-step-down-as-pa-president-within-2-months-410229

2017
“A new poll has found that the vast majority of Palestinians think that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas should resign from his position.

According to the Palestinian Center for Policy and Research, 70% of Palestinians want Abbas to step down while only 26% want him to stay on. Of the two Palestinian regions, 64% of Palestinians in the West Bank want Abbas to resign as do 80% in the Gaza Strip, which is run by Hamas.”
http://jewishjournal.com/news/worldwide/228559/poll-70-palestinians-think-abbas-step/

How do the Iaraelis stop him? By taking out those who might be capable of replacing him.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 14 May 2021 5:52:22 PM
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"How do the Iaraelis stop him? By taking out those who might be capable of replacing him."

Oh, just as I thought. You made it up.... on the basis that it just has to be the Jews wot done it.
Posted by mhaze, Friday, 14 May 2021 6:00:40 PM
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Dear mhaze,

You really can be a mendacious little flog sometimes.

I could list at least 5 people who Israel has directly intervened with to keep Abbas in the job. The top of that list would be Marwan Barghouti.

Let's see if he is allowed to run in the upcoming elections.

As to whose fault it is Chomsky quotes a sign held by an old man in Gaza.

“You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.”
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 14 May 2021 6:11:34 PM
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Yuyustu, nailed it one again, my non-biased unblinkered even-handed friend! Facts matter and count for far more than patently biased political posturing/blame-shifting.
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 14 May 2021 6:51:31 PM
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Meanwhile why not read the essay titled The Nakba Continues which is featured on the Counterpunch website.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 14 May 2021 7:33:30 PM
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Might be an idea if some here would look a little deeper.
The court decided against the Arabs as they had no documentation and
only said they bought the property from "Ismail".
All the existing records show that the properties are owned by two
Jewish organisations who have documentation and who bought them in the 1970s.
The case has gone to the Supreme Court but the Arabs have now changed
their statement and now claim that they are tennants.
The court has not yet given its decision.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 14 May 2021 7:55:48 PM
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A 1,000 Palestinians looking for sympathy in Adelaide today. They intend to turn up at parliament house tomorrow. I don't know what they expect. As usual, their mob started the hostilities. If they want to support the terrorists, Adelaide or anywhere else in Australia is not the place to do it. I'll bet we won't get the same ignorance from any Jews.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 14 May 2021 11:28:13 PM
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I'm just sooo tired of hearing of these mutts' antics !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 15 May 2021 9:11:00 AM
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individual,

Yes, so am I. But, that's what happens when countries are dumb enough to bow down to multiculturalism, allow the wrong people in, and stick their noses into what goes on in shitehole countries.

I heard last night someone predicting that we will be in for another Vietnam style influx of illegal boat arrivals from Afghanistan now that the Yanks are finally quitting that shitehole completely. I also heard significant Yanks vowing to stand with us against China. That's good. But, I'm not sure that our own government will stand by us.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 15 May 2021 9:48:25 AM
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Israel looks to be preparing for a land invasion of Gaza for the second time since 2014. More unnecessary death and mayhem, thanks to stupid, vicious Palestinians, whose civilians will pay the price. They will never learn that Israel is never going to give up no matter what terrorists and anti-Semites think or do.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 15 May 2021 10:10:00 AM
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The rotten ABC has twisted the facts (again) reporting that Hamas RETALIATED against Israel! Just one more case of this ultra-Left, anti-West and anti-democracy organisation we pay for calling black white.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 15 May 2021 10:58:30 AM
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"I could list at least 5 people who Israel has directly intervened with to keep Abbas in the job. The top of that list would be Marwan Barghouti."

Sorry SR but its clear this is just another example of you shooting your mouth off and then trying to run for cover.

In the whole of the the West Bank, according to you, there's no one capable of taking over from Abbas. Its ridiculous on the face of it. What about Nasser al Qidwa...he's running against Abbas. As is Barghouti. That is if Abbas ever actually let's an election be held.

If Abbas wants out, rather than just saying he wants out, he'd hold elections, get defeated, and move on. There are plenty of other 'leaders' just as capable of screwing up as Abbas.

The penchant of yours of just blaming it all on the Jews is worrying. Are you aware the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' are fake?
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 15 May 2021 10:58:54 AM
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Dear mhaze,

You really are a lightweight a lot of the time aren't you.

The Israelis put Marwan Barghouti out of Abbas's way 18 years ago. The bloke is still behind bars and will not likely be released even if he is successful at becoming president.

"Israel is unlikely to release Barghouti regardless of his political fortunes, and may refuse to engage with a leader it views as a terrorist."
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/imprisoned-palestinian-leader-marwan-barghouti-s-entry-shakes-planned-vote-n1262706

Nasser al Qidwa has the stench of Fatah corruption to contend with even though there is support coming from Marwan Barghouti's supporters led by Barghouti's wife.

But who can forget how punitive Israel and Abbas were when the elections in 2006 did not go their way.

"On 28 January 2006, Israel said it would prevent Hamas leaders, including newly elected PLC deputies, from travelling between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. On 29 January, Ehud Olmert said that after Hamas sets up a Government, Israel would stop transferring to the PA custom duties and taxes it had collected on their behalf until it was satisfied that they would not end up in the hands of "terrorists". US Secretary of State Rice declared that "The United States wants other nations to cut off aid to a Hamas-led Palestinian Government, also ruling out any US financial assistance to a Hamas Government." On 17 February, one day before the new parliament was sworn in, the current Fatah-led government returned $50 million US aid that Washington did not want to come in the hands of the new government. The money was destined out for infrastructure projects in Gaza."
Wikipedia
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 15 May 2021 12:18:31 PM
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Netanyahu's heavy-handed police force incited this last riot as has the illegal by international law, the annexing of occupied Palestinian land.

Netanyahu, who faces criminal corruption charges and the election of a possible new P.M., needed this conflict to concentrate the political opposition on it rather than replacing him. AS an incumbent P.M., likely to fare better in the courts than a recently deposed one? And that is the long and short of it.
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 15 May 2021 12:25:15 PM
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The Palestinians will not accept a solution that enables the Jews to
remain in the Middle East.
The Israelis will only accept a solution the retains Israel.
It has been like that all the time, so how do you square that ?

There is only one solution, get rid of Islam.
Surprisingly there are moslems who want to rewrite the Koran as a
solution to their world wide problems. They understand the Koran is
why they have been at war for 1400 years.
To make such a suggestion is blasphemy and punishable with death.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 15 May 2021 4:27:56 PM
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While the ABC lies about who fired first, and sympathises with terrorists, Israel, even as it defends itself from Hamas terror, warns Palestinian civilians which buildings it is going to hit so that those civilians can get out of the way before it happens. The terrorists keep lobbing rockets into Israel indiscriminately. There is a vast difference between the two cultures and their respect for life.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 16 May 2021 8:47:44 AM
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What could possibly make these people come to their senses ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 16 May 2021 8:54:23 AM
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"Israel is now the only country on Earth that is expected to allow itself to be attacked. To sit back and do nothing as its citizens are pelted with rocks or rockets." (Brendan O'Neill)
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 16 May 2021 11:28:33 AM
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I agree with Dr Alon Ben-Meir's viewpoint about
East Jerusalem - however sadly I very much doubt
if the US President will move in this direction
or if he would succeed.

After all Israel's policy
has existed for decades - and it has been -
permanent control of the " maximum amount of land
with the minimum amount of Arabs."

Permanent conflict punctuated by periodic carnage
is inscribed into the very DNA of the Israeli-Palestinian
relationship (for nearly 75 years) .

Israel is a Jewish state.
In practice this means, Israel's institutions, its
policies, are designed to ensure the perpetuation of
a Jewish majority who are accorded superior rights and
privileges.

Chief amongst these policies is the reservation of the
lion's share of land within Israel (- which can be freely
acquired for collective Jewish ownership) .

Even without this depredation routinely meted out to
Palestinian citizens of Israel ( - who make up 20% of the
population) , the different status of the Jewish and
Palestinian communities as a matter of policy is enough
to ensure permanent mutual hostility
between Palestinians and the state and the
deepening antagonism between their communities.

I wish President Biden and the international
communities to take a stronger stance
and try to force a two state solution
in Israel. East Jerusalem as the capital of
Palestine would be a good start.

However, -

With the absence of international political
will - this conflict will persist until there is a change
in the balance of power. That either results in
Palestinian capitulation or somehow - fundamentally transforms Israel.

It does not appear that this will happen any time soon.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 16 May 2021 1:12:45 PM
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cont'd ...

For anyone interested in reading more on this complex
subject I would strongly recommend the book -
"Once Upon A Country," by Sari Nusseibeh.

The author has is a moderate (hated by extremists on
both sides). He was Prof. of Philosophy and a former
President of Al Quds University in Jerusalem. Until
2002 - He was the representative of the Palestinian
National Authority in that city.

The book covers not only his life but generations of
Palestinians. It is worth a reader. And is a balanced
work.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 16 May 2021 1:42:10 PM
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Foxy,
I just cannot see your suggestion being acceptable to the Israelis.
It all goes back to the beginning with Mohammad's treaty with the
Jews of Mecca.
Despite the treaty his forces attacked and defeated the Jews at Badr.
It is from that time that Allah revealed to him to never make friends
of Jews or Christians.
There was another time that Mohammad attacked a Jewish village and
slaughtered the inhabitants.
The name of that village is still used as a threat to Jews.
Its name was Qurayzah the warriors were killed and
the women and children taken as captives. This might be Mohammad's
start of his slave trader career.
Just had a thought, as it is blasphemy to make images of him it has
saved the woke from going around knocking down statues of slave traders, hi !
Allah seems to have made a habit of making very convenient revelations.
Islam can never make a real treaty with moslems, only deceptive ones.

Unfortunately Foxy, that is built in to the Koran and cannot be changed.
So the Jews will never surrender any part of Jerusalem that
they now hold, after all it is the Arabs that are the occupiers from
when Mohammad's successors invaded Mesopotamia in the late 700s.
From there they invaded Persia and India and look at the trouble they
left there !

Just in case anyone wonders, no I am not Jewish being of the fourth
nation descendants. It is just a casual amateur interest in history.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 16 May 2021 2:16:38 PM
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Made 2 mistakes, it was not the 700s that the moslems captured Jerusalem
but much earlier in 638 ad.
The name used to threaten Jews is Khaybar an Oasis where Jews were living.
Same story though, kill the warriors sell the women and children.
He ordered the Tribal chief killed, selected a woman, killed her
husband, and married her, consummated the marriage all in one day.
This is the perfect man we should all emulate ?
And they call us men all sorts of names, oh dear.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 16 May 2021 3:02:36 PM
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Bazz,
I wonder what makes God tolerate them for so long ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 16 May 2021 3:24:16 PM
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Israel believes in the Peace Process but really does not want the peace because as long as the process remains unresolved they are free to keep seizing more land.

Much has been said about the attitude of the Arab world to Israel but here are some historic quotes by David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli PM and "the father of their nation".

“If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country.”

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return”

“I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

“The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill: from the Nile to the Euphrates.”
Posted by rache, Sunday, 16 May 2021 5:45:41 PM
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Israel believes in the Peace Process but really does not want the peace because as long as the process remains unresolved they are free to keep seizing more land.

Much has been said about the attitude of the Arab world to Israel but here are some historic quotes by David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli PM and "the father of their nation".

“If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country.”

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return”

“I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

“The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill: from the Nile to the Euphrates.”

Of course Israel has the right to defend itself but don't the Palestinians also have the right not to have their houses and land illegally stolen and suffer under extreme sanctions?
Posted by rache, Sunday, 16 May 2021 5:47:15 PM
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but don't the Palestinians also have the right not to have their houses and land illegally stolen
rache,
How many Palestinians are taking up space taken from the Australian Indigenous ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 16 May 2021 7:48:53 PM
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If as humane people we put an animal down to end it's suffering,
Shouldn't we just nuke the entire middle east right now?
Wouldn't that be the humane thing to do?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 16 May 2021 10:14:44 PM
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The Israeli regime was founded on terrorism.
Its a FACT that both Likud Party and modern Israel itself
WERE FOUNDED ON TERRORISM
70 - 80 odd years later here we are
- Blowing up media offices - Has anything really changed?
That's what governments do when they've lost the legitimacy to rule.
- Lost the legitimacy to be considered anything else but a band of maniacs.

Do you want to know the NUMBER 1 reason why you blow up a media office?
To stop others reporting about the things YOU'RE DOING.

They wanted the building flattened end of story and they always come out with some half baked crap to try and justify whatever they do,
- Whether they're blowing up kids on the beach with rockets;
Or flattening 10 story buildings full of foreign reporters.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 16 May 2021 10:35:33 PM
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When it comes to media coverage during wartime, I remember when the Al-Jazeera office in Iraq was bombed not once but twice by the USA during that particular conflict.

They claimed it was a mistake the first time but warned them before the second time.

Then as now, it was about controlling the narrative and avoiding the chance of negative publicity. They had compliant media "embedded" with their troops who only saw what they were meant to see.

I also recall a missile attack on the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade during the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 - supposedly a mistake based on using 10-year old maps. However that excuse was retracted when it was revealed the site was an empty park 10 years before. In that instance there were negotiations happening over building gas pipelines the USA didn't want so there is a precedent for using the military for political reasons when convenient and the unfortunate death of civilians as a result.

The current conflict seems to have been deliberately provoked by Netanyahu to conveniently deflect from his current political and personal corruption issues.

Regardless, in all cases it's the innocent who are made to suffer.

As for the recent attack, how odd is it to warn alleged terrorists before blowing up their supposed building?
Posted by rache, Monday, 17 May 2021 12:12:25 AM
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We're supposed to believe that even though they can easily assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists, that the only way to deal with a couple of (supposed) 'Hamas weapons experts' - who just happened to use THAT building, was to level the building giving all the people there advanced notice first?

Do they think we're idiots ?

- So if Israel had a plan, then their plan was this:
'We'll blow the building up, but we'll have to tell the reporters to get out first, then after we blow the building up, we'll tell everyone that Hamas was there, and we will provide the evidence.

Head honchos, Higher-ups, people in suits.
They all sat round, had a little chat and this is what they came up with.
This is how they think and act?

- Whether Hamas was actually even there or not, they just leveled a building on foreign land.
- Maybe they consider it their own land?

I wonder what Jacinta would say if we did a missile attack on news building in say Christchurch?

Does Israel think we'll buy their explanation or does it just think it can get away with things like this and not care in the first place?
That people at home will just bicker amongst themselves and at the end of the day none of it even really matters and that they can do whatever they want anyway?

- Move along, nothing to see here -
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 17 May 2021 2:13:40 AM
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rache claims that Ben-Gurion said "If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country"

In fact he didn't. There is no evidence he ever said or thought such a thing. The quote comes from a book written by one of Ben-Gurion's most vociferous opponents 5 years AFTER Ben-Gurion's death. This is the level of 'evidence' that the Jew haters fall for.

I'm sure if I bothered to check rache's other assertions they'd be equally evidence free. But then the truth of the matter isn't the point is it? Its the feelz.

ArmChair writes: "Or flattening 10 story buildings full of foreign reporters.". In fact there was no one in the building since the Israeli's had given adequate warning of the demolition of Hamas's intelligence HQ.

Did you see the video of the owner of the building talking to the IDF and saying that no one was in the building? Or is actual evidence not required?

A more interesting question is why foreign 'reporters' have been living cheek-by-jowl with Hamas operatives all these years and just how that coloured their coverage of issues. Remember the major AP reporting 2015 which was proven to be a complete hatchet job.

So no one in a building AC thinks was "full of foreign reporters."
Elsewhere AC asks "Do they think we're idiots ?"
Well, in some cases, they'd be right. :)
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 17 May 2021 10:39:24 AM
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I know that few here will enjoy the idea, but none of this would be happening if Trump were in the White House.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 17 May 2021 10:41:52 AM
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Netanyahu summarised the whole issue thusly...

"Knesset Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu said during a speech that "if the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel."

or as the great Brendan O'Neill wrote..."Why won’t Israelis let themselves be killed?"
http://www.spiked-online.com/2021/05/12/why-wont-israelis-let-themselves-be-killed/
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 17 May 2021 10:47:56 AM
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I think there is good reason to believe that this current battle
would not have started if Trump was still US President because he is
so unpredictable. His odd diplomatic behaviour is a reversion to
ancient themes, and away from pseudo polite diplomatic speak.
In modern times no politician, or nearly all, say it how it is !
Someone in a seat of power needs to say out very loud;
"There will be no two state settlement !"
At present only the Arabs are saying that, the Israelis need to get
the message and agree with the Arabs.
Until they both agree on the ultimate aim the muddle will continue.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 17 May 2021 11:11:40 AM
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What SR and other apologists for the Hamas terrorists refuse to acknowledge is the form of the attack by Hamas.

The majority of rockets fired are the Katusha type rockets modelled from those fired in from the "Stalin organs" in WW2 designed with warheads to explode and shower the target area with shrapnel and fired in barrages have a similar effect to cluster bombs (also known as daisy cutters)

Hamas deliberately fire these anti-personnel weapons at densely populated civilian areas and the only reason that there aren't scores of Israeli dead is because of the Iron domes that shoot down 90% of the rockets. This is indisputably a war crime

Secondly, Hamas fires these rockets from heavily populated areas in Gaza so that if Israel retaliates against the launch sites there will be civilian casualties. This is also indisputably a war crime.

By contrast, the Israelis go to extreme lengths to minimise Palestinian civilian casualties frequently giving warnings so civilians can be evacuated from Hamas military assets before they are destroyed.

This conflict can easily be stopped as several times before if Hamas simply stops firing rockets.
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 17 May 2021 1:34:27 PM
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Bazz,

The last conflict occurred in 2014 while Obama was in power.
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 17 May 2021 1:39:15 PM
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Trump would have prevented this conflict?
Hardly.

It was Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital that emboldened the Zionists and effectively removed the rights of Palestinians to have an ongoing presence there and abandoned the possibility of future good-faith negotiations with them.

It was the subsequent property seizure and evictions in Sheikh Jarrah that provoked the Hamas retaliation.

Bush temporarily halted previous evictions by withholding loan guarantees and Obama also pressured Netanyahu into a pause but the Israelis really treat the USA with disdain, despite them being their greatest supporter in the UN by looking the other way when it comes to war crimes and atrocities.

Trump just relit the fuse and gave them the tacit approval they were seeking to make a move.

The Palestinians really have nothing left to lose and standing up to the fourth greatest military power in the world with home-made rockets will be ultimately futile. Israel is probably hoping to be able to finally invade and occupy Gaza once and for all - another step close to their long-range plan for Greater Israel.
Posted by rache, Monday, 17 May 2021 3:46:29 PM
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Gauwd Rache,
you seemed to have missed a lot of what has been going on.
The only negotiation that the Arabs have spoken of is when will all
Jews leave.
The properties under dispute were occupied by Arabs that would not pay
their rent. So the owners took them to court to be expelled.
They didn't like the decision and the riots got fired up.
The tenants claimed ownership, but had no documentation except to say
the paid Ismail for the properties. They could not produce Ismail.
They appealed to the Supreme court and changed their claim from being
owners to tenants. The decision is yet to come.

To sum up the who;e thing is a beatup from just a rent argument.
In reality it has been going on since Mohammad sent his offsiders
North to invade.
Frankly the rest of us are fedup with Islam and its nutcase followers.
This has been going on for 1400 years and sooner or later there will
be a violent reaction from all the rest of us.
At some point Islam will upset the Chinese and that will be interesting to watch.
Watch the re-education then.
Islam must go !
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 17 May 2021 8:30:13 PM
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Dear mhaze,

What a mendacious little troll you have a tendency to portray nowadays.

There is nothing at all to suggest Nahum Goldmann, a totally committed Zionist by the way, made this up.

Ben-Gurion made similar remarks in a 1938 speech where he said: Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”

For you to use this to unjustifiably refute the body of rache's posts is just pathetic but then to heap it with 'jew-hatred' slur is utterly indefensible and any normal person would be ashamed.

You are a flog mate.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 17 May 2021 9:36:12 PM
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ArmChair writes: "Or flattening 10 story buildings full of foreign reporters.". In fact there was no one in the building since the Israeli's had given adequate warning of the demolition of Hamas's intelligence HQ.

Yeah they work there mhaze.
I'll tell you why they wanted that building down.
What does that building have that no other buildings have?
... You see those dirty big antennas on the roof, derr?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 17 May 2021 9:37:11 PM
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Shadowminister,

Out running with IDF lies again?

There is nothing to suggest Hamas places rocket launches in places designed to guard them from strikes by using human shields. Every time this is raised it gets shot down. The facts on the ground never bears this out. But here you are, once again of cue, being an apologist for the war criminals in the Israeli government and IDF.

Utterly typical.

This is what is happening right now.

“The Israeli air strikes hit a busy street in Gaza just after midnight on Sunday, causing at least three buildings to collapse and dozens of deaths.”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57131272

Why? Because Israel wanted to strike at a hidden tunnel. How on earth do you do that with a missile on a busy Gaza street and not to expect casualties? Another 10 Palestinian children dead to your obvious glee. Only the brain dead like yourself would lap this up and regurgitate crap about Israeli minimising civilian deaths. How on earth is a tunnel an offensive weapon?

More from the IDF “It said it had also struck the homes of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar and his brother Muhammad Sinwar, whom it described as head of logistics and manpower for the movement.” Are the homes of Israeli leaders also fair game in this? What is the risk to their families? This isn't a war crime either in your mind? Of course not.

You are a nasty hate filled individual convinced you are on the side of might.

Give it a rest.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 17 May 2021 9:53:38 PM
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Good point.
It's kind of funny how it's portrayed that the people they say ARE the terrorists...

- Are NOT the ones blowing other peoples leaders up in their beds at home, with women and kids and elderly family and blood and bodybits all over the place.

The people they defend ARE THE ONES WHO DO blow other peoples leaders up in their beds at home, with women and kids and elderly family and blood and bodybits all over the place.

Is this not what our leaders mean when they say 'Israel has a right to defend itself'?

Are they not giving these kinds of actions their silent consent?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 17 May 2021 11:24:33 PM
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Bazz,

Sorry but you're just following the typical apologists' argument.

That same bogus property dispute also happened earlier in 2012 at both Sheikh Jarrah and also at Beit Hanina when it was determined by the UN that Israel's actions were in violation of Article 49 of the Geneva Convention (not that they give a stuff anyway)and there is no rent due because there is no landlord involved.

Israel was acting under it's own law but that does not apply in occupied territories which automatically falls under International law which prohibits the transfer of an occupying power's civilian population into occupied territory - as they have been doing for decades in Palestine as well as the resurgence in Jerusalem. Israel has no respect for International law unless it benefits them but runs screaming for justice when things don't go their way.

Using their law in defiance is no different from them quoting that "God gave this land to us" from a book they wrote in the first place.

In any case that law is especially discriminatory because it prevents Palestinians from reclaiming their former property within Israel under the same circumstances, but then again they are an apartheid state after all.

Also, as well as the buildings targetted for television, here are some details about the location of casualties -
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/4380/Horrific-crimes:-Israel-destroys-homes-with-families-inside-%E2%80%93-19-families-targeted,-53-Palestinians-killed
More violations of International law happening there too.

The best thing the world can do about Jerusalem is give everyone an hour to evacuate the place, nuke it and see who wants to fight over the ashes. That would solve one problem anyway.
Posted by rache, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 12:42:22 AM
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SR

Your obvious pleasure in the death of Israeli civilians shows that you are still an antisemite troll.

There is plenty of evidence that Hamas fires weapons from and stores munitions in populated civilian areas even to the point of there being video footage of Hamas setting up and firing rockets next to occupied homes.

The tunnels to which you refer are refuges for Hamas that civilians don't get to use and are used to store weapons etc. The bombs dropped on these tunnels and bunkers were bunker busters and primarily killed Hamas terrorists and destroyed their munitions.

If Israel had fired an artillery barrage into Gaza there would already be 1000s of dead.

So stop spouting Hamas's antisemitic propoganda.
Posted by shadowminister, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 2:59:33 AM
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Sounds to me like Palestine still exists only because of the restraints by Israel !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 8:02:13 AM
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Rache, the article I read named the two organisations that own the
properties involved and they presented to the court the appropriate
documentation, However it does not matter now as the occupiers have
admitted that they are tenants and not owners.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 9:37:05 AM
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SR blathers.."What a mendacious little troll you have a tendency to portray nowadays."

Look SR, I know I've belittled you over the past few weeks and made you look the fool, but perhaps a little restraint on your part would make you look less deranged.

There's no evidence Ben-Gurion said what its claimed he said. The end.

Re the downed building and who was actually there...

"The AP staff in Gaza City would witness a rocket launch right beside their office, endangering reporters and other civilians nearby—and the AP wouldn’t report it, not even in AP articles about Israeli claims that Hamas was launching rockets from residential areas. (This happened.) Hamas fighters would burst into the AP’s Gaza bureau and threaten the staff—and the AP wouldn’t report it. (This also happened.) Cameramen waiting outside Shifa Hospital in Gaza City would film the arrival of civilian casualties and then, at a signal from an official, turn off their cameras when wounded and dead fighters came in, helping Hamas maintain the illusion that only civilians were dying. (This too happened; the information comes from multiple sources with firsthand knowledge of these incidents.)"

As to the non-payment of rent, the history is here...http://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2021/05/15/the-hamas-rocket-attacks-are-based-on-a-lie-n1447193

As usual the Babylon Bee gets to the nub of the issue.."http://babylonbee.com/news/luke-skywalker-condemned-for-blowing-up-associated-press-office-located-on-death-star

I wonder if Snopes will fact-check them?
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 10:10:35 AM
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To all the apologists and shills for the Israeli government.

Overnight the IDF bombed three buildings in a-Rimal. The list of dead thus far.

Amin Muhammad al-Qoalaq, 90 years old
Sa'diyah Yusef al-Qoalaq, 84 years old
Bahaa Amin Muhammad al-Qoalaq, 48 years old
Fawaz A,on Muhammad al-Qoalaq, 62 years old
Riham Fawaz Amin al-Qoalaq, 32 years old
Abd al-Hamid Fawaz al-Qoalaq, 22 years old
Sameh Fawaz Amin al-Qoalaq, 28 years old
Ayat Ibrahim Khalil al-Qoalaq, 19 years old
Qusai Sameh Fawaz al-Qoalaq, 6 months
Du'aa 'Omar 'Abdallah al-Qoalaq, 38 years old
Muhammad Mu'in Muhammad al-Qoalaq, 41 years old
Hala Muhammad Mu'in al-Qoalaq, 13 years old
Yara Muhammad Mu'in al-Qoalaq, 9 years old
Rula Muhammad Mu'in al-Qoalaq, 6 years old
Amal Jamil Salameh al-Qoalaq, 42 years old
Hanaa Shukri Amin al-Qoalaq, 14 years old
Ahmad Shukri Amin al-Qoalaq, 15 years old
Taher Shukri Amin al-Qoalaq, 23 years old
Izat Mu'in Muhammad al-Qoalaq, 44 years old
Adam 'Izat Mu'in al-Qoalaq, 3 years old
Zeid 'Izat Mu'in al-Qoalaq, 8 years old
Abeer Nimer 'Ali Ishkuntana, 29 years old
Zein Riyad Hassan Ishkuntana, 2 years old
Yihia Riyad Hassan Ishkuntana, 4 years old
Dana Riyad Hassan Ishkuntana, 9 years old
Ayman Tawfiq Isma'il Abu al-'Oaf, 49 years old
Tawfiq Ayman Tawfiq Abu al-'Oaf, 17 years old
Tala Ayman Tawfiq Abu al-'Oaf, 13 years old
Rawan 'Alaa Subhi Abu al-'Oaf, 19 years old
Rim Ahmad Khalil Abu al-'Oaf, 40 years old
Dima Rami Riyad al-Afranji, 15 years old
Hazem 'Adel Na'im al-Qame', 48 years old
Mu'in Ahmad Hassan ak-'Alul, 66 years old
Luai Muhammad Ahmad 'Odeah, 54 years old
Khitam Salim al-Qoalaq, 52 Years old
Lana Riyad Hassan Ishkuntana, years old
Subhiyeh Isma'il Abi al-'Oaf, 73 years old
Majdiyeh Khalil Abu al- 'Oaf, 82 years old
Rajaa Subhi al-Afranji, 41 years old
Amir Rami Riyad al-Afranji, 9 years old
Yazan Rami Riyad al-Afranji, 13 years old
Mira Rami Riyad al-Afranji, 11 years old
Muhammad Eki, 40 years old

This toll will likely have some of you jumping for joy, scrambling for hollow justifications, or turning a blind eye. But you are all complicit.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 10:37:57 AM
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Dear mhaze,

Mate, get off your high horse. Calling anyone who disagrees with the IDF narrative “jew-haters” is about as deranged as it gets so park your criticism on that front. My slightly elevated language is nothing compared to that slur.

So you had claimed “There is no evidence he ever said or thought such a thing.”. I produced evidence that he most definitely 'thought such a thing'. You have now reverted back to “There's no evidence Ben-Gurion said what its claimed he said. The end.”

Rubbish. The 1938 speech clearly shows Nahum Goldmann's quote is more than likely to have happened than any suggestion that it didn't. Why are you even engaged in attempting revisionist history on this anyway? Was it just a pathetic attempt to disparage all the points rache raised or are you really that invested in it?

Snopes is doing its job. These memes that go out into the social media sphere are taken up and disseminated by people who believe they are true. Just because stuff is self evidently bunkum to many of us doesn't mean they don't need debunking.

And look at you now, regurgitating a 2014 story regarding the AP offices and intimating it is current. Your mendacity really is a feature of what you post nowadays isn't it. Snopes would have you for breakfast old boy. How about an apology.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 11:15:23 AM
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Do you think that these people would have died if the Palestinian activists had kept a low profile lately ?
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 11:41:02 AM
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SR,

I'm not characterising rache based on her rejection of IDF views. I'm basing the characterisation on her, and for that matter, your, jaundiced unthinking pro-Palestinian assertions.

"And look at you now, regurgitating a 2014 story regarding the AP offices and intimating it is current."

I didn't intimate anything. Its simply evidence that Hamas and the AP were in the building that was taken out. Other evidence also exists - eg the recording of the building's owner talking to the IDf; the fact that the US intelligence was provided the proof which they accepted.

The press existed cheek-by-jowl with Hamas intelligence. People like you beleiving they aren't being misled by that media is just sad.

If Hamas wants the bombing to stop, they just have to stop. They started firing at Israel and reaped the results. They stop...the Israelis stop
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 3:22:05 PM
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You're all forgetting one thing...

And many of us on this forum do this right here.

PEOPLE HAVE A TENDENCY TO LASH OUT WHEN BACKED INTO A CORNER.

What if all those people listed were family and friends I'd known all my life?

Can any of you put yourself in that situation?

For me, you'd all want to hope I had something else to live for; REGARDLESS OF MY RELIGION
- Because if I don't have something more to live for;
Then I just might be pushed to a point where I feel there's no other choice except to try and get some payback.

Israel creates it's own perpetual problem and you know why?
This is how it slowly tightens then noose and takes what it wants.
And it's been doing it for decades.

These dead people are just statistics, par for the course
In Israels plan for the future.

How many here lashed out when backed into a corner.
- And we just chat.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 9:24:35 PM
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6 mth old, 9 year old, 6 year old, 3 year old, 8 year old, 2 year old, 4 year old 9 year old, 9 year old.

You people got grandkids?
How would you all feel if a 'foreign government' blew them up into little tiny chunks of bone and meat?

I bet they'd change their minds pretty quick if it were their grandkids.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 18 May 2021 9:31:19 PM
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Dear mhaze,

Her “pro-Palestinian assertions”?

What you flagged was Rache quoting the former leader of the World Zionist movement for god's sake, something which somehow in your twisted hate-filled mind ended up being characterised it as jew-hatred.

The illogical hoops you have had to drag yourself through to get there would be astounding to those who aren't familiar with you.

Now you are claiming “Its simply evidence that Hamas and the AP were in the building that was taken out”.

No it isn't at all. The article you quoted from was 2014 so you really don't know what the situation was this year at all do you. I realise you probably didn't know the providence of the article which is fine, we all make mistakes, even me sometimes, but you certainly aren't about to acknowledge yours now are you? Even setting that aside the fact that there were government officials in attendance in a building housing various media organisations is hardly novel is it.

But you elevate this to “The press existed cheek-by-jowl with Hamas intelligence.”. Where in the article was that ever stated? Why are you making things up yet again?

How about you look through the names and ages of those who lost their lives that I posted earlier. Perhaps do just one of them the courtesy of remembering them because you mate are complicit in their deaths. Your support of the terror regime of a venal and corrupt government hopefully one day will bring you shame.

As to a ceasefire all Israel has to do is “withdraw its soldiers... from the blessed al-Aqsa mosque and Sheikh Jarrah” as per the Hamas statement and the rockets will cease.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 19 May 2021 11:36:10 AM
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SR,

I know my logic is gunna lose you here but try I must.

When you look at these issues, you form a conclusion and then go looking for any piece of evidence to support the conclusion. Just one piece of evidence.

But others gather a range of data and form a conclusion.

As regards rache, she's been in the group for long enough to know she is virulently anti-Jew. Its not based on one quote but a long series of data-points. Confused yet?

As regards the AP being in the same location as Hamas, again there is a range of evidence. I even mentioned some of that evidence. It wasn't based on one data-point. The AP has been in the same location for around 16 years. I got that from other data. So if they were in the building with Hamas in 2014 that had been the case for over a decade. Then we have other data eg the owner of the building and US intelligence reports.

I know this is all very confusing for you. But that's how informed opinion is formed. You should try it some time.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 19 May 2021 1:30:32 PM
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5-year-old Ido Avigal was killed on 12/5/21 following a rocket attack on the Tel Aviv area.

A 16-year-old girl and her father, 52, were killed in a rocket attack in the city of Lod the next day.

Here's her photo... http://img.haarets.co.il/img/1.9796943/1318057184.jpeg?precrop=442,960,x0,y0&height=1303&width=600

I wonder if SR or ArmChair have any sympathy for these kids. They are after all only Jews.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 19 May 2021 1:35:22 PM
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I wonder if SteeleRedux will provide his opinion on the people killed after Hamas attacks ?
Or, will he tell us the Israelis attack first ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 19 May 2021 6:15:29 PM
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Dear mhaze,

Get your hand off it mate. You regurgitated that story from some rightwing hack site not knowing it was 7 years out of date. To be now insinuating you knew all along is absolute garbage.

You constantly do this, balls things up in your mad scramble to sneak some kind of imaginary win. What instead ends up happening is you end up looking like an utter fool.

And don't project your utter disdain and lack of care for the kids being slaughtered by the IDF on the rest of us. Of course the loss of those Jewish children's lives is a tragedy and under a different regime in Israel they may still be alive.

You and shadowminister are two utterly toxic individuals who are attempting to defend the indefensible primarily by labelling anyone who criticises the actions of Israel as jew-hating anti-Semites.

How completely pathetic but also how telling that the only way you feel you can sustain your morally bankrupt positions is to attack others with the constant slur of anti-Semiticsm.

If you were Jewish and an Israeli you might have some leeway, but you're not, you are just doing it because it comes with Trumpism right wing baggage.

You are both absolute shockers and un-Australian to boot.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 19 May 2021 6:19:58 PM
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mhaze,

The problem with making assumptions is that they can sometimes be wrong.

I'm not a female but in fact a male in his mid-sixties and unlike some of the agenda-driven reactionaries that prowl sites like this I don't see history as a moving 3-week wide window but from a much wider perspective. This is not some brand new event but a continuation of a deliberate process that's been planned and under way for decades.

I've been around long enough to know the difference between fact and propaganda and when somebody's trying to yank my chain.

It's interesting that while the UK condemns the actions they continue to sell them the weapons that make it possible and the USA actually stands in the way of progress by letting Israel continue to defy international law. By it's own actions Israel is an international pariah and a rogue state.

As for being a virulent jew-hater I have no more problem with Judaeism than any other religion and my criticism is directed toward the extremist Zionism that's behind the last decades of atrocities in that region. As a prominent Jewish author once said, the typical charge of anti-Semitism is "a trick, intended to shut down discussion and debate". The definition of the term term Semites includes Arabs.

These actions are actually anti-Jewish because they label them all as vicious oppressive thugs whose end-game has always been the total occupation of the region under the bogus claim that they are always the victim and under some sort of threat.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 20 May 2021 12:52:05 AM
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SR,

Hamas is a recognised terrorist organisation that rules Gaza tyrannically and arbitrarily executes all opposition, gays lesbians and Jews. Yet here you are cheerfully celebrating as they murder women and children because they are Jewish.

Hamas builds bunkers to protect their weapons and fighters and is yet to provide any protection for the women and children it uses as human shields.

You are a despicable person and you are Australian only in the way that Ivan Milat was.
Posted by shadowminister, Thursday, 20 May 2021 4:19:20 AM
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... women and children it uses as human shields.
shadowminister,
Men, for want of better description in this case, could not stoop any lower than that !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 20 May 2021 7:51:04 AM
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SR

"You regurgitated that story from some rightwing hack site not knowing it was 7 years out of date. To be now insinuating you knew all along is absolute garbage."

You just assumed I didn't know it was from 2014. No evidence - just a giant leap to conclusion. How very SR of you.

In fact I've used that same quote several times over the past years, even, as I recall on these pages. I like the quote because it succinctly demonstrates how the press slants the story so as to misled the usual dills.

"you are just doing it because it comes with Trumpism right wing baggage."

I've been supportive of the Jewish state from way back. Indeed the first essay I ever wrote for publication was a contemporary account of the Yom Kipper war and the astounding Jewish victory there in the face of Arab/Soviet aggression. Long before the rise of Trump.

But I would reiterate that none of this would have been happening if Trump were still president.

rache,

Sorry to have misgendered you.

"I've been around long enough to know the difference between fact and propaganda and when somebody's trying to yank my chain."

Knowing there is a difference between fact and propaganda is not the same as recognising one from t'other. Falling for the propaganda from the Arab terrorist state and its cheer-squad, indicates a problem recognising each.

"virulent jew-hater I have no more problem with Judaeism than any other religion"

Its got nought to do with religion. Jew hatred goes back centuries. It is also part of the great socialist belief system from Marx to Corbyn. Hatred of the Jewish state is part of the hatred of the US and capitalism in general. And of course those who support America's enemies are also obliged to oppose its friends.

I can't help but notice no acknowledgement of dead Jewish kids.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 20 May 2021 10:50:04 AM
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mhaze,
Your logic is like a series of poorly strung together brain-farts.

Firstly replace the term anti-jew with pro-human.

If being pro-jew as you are means supporting killing women and kids just because you can to further your sides national agenda, or if it means believing God gave you the land or that God gave you a responsibility to rule over non-Jews, and tip urine and feces out you window upon your Palestinian neighbours;

Then I am ANTI-JEW, and not afraid to say it.

If Jews want to denounce this sub-human attitude I might start to think of them differently.
- Is it my fault that I think of them based on the merits of their own beliefs and actions?

You can twist it any way you wish.
But let me tell you I don't support that Jewish girl being killed either.
It's you that only sees the deaths on the side you have bias for.

You're so dumb.
What is Hamas anyway?
- Anyone who doesn't bend over and pull their bum cheecks apart for the occupation?
- Anyone who doesn't love the situation on the ground to the point of being blindly besotted religiously by 'God's chosen people'?

Some of us don't give a shite about any of that.

I told you before why they took that building down, antennas!!
It doesn't have to be anything more or less to be a target of the IDF.

You want to knock out any ability of the enemy to know what your doing, as well as reduce their communication capabilities.
- So you drop the damn building, right?
It's a no brainer.

Then you tell people Osama Bin Laden was hiding in there, when the real terrorists are the Israeli government.
And that's the truth, from 70+ years ago and continues to this day.
- terrorist government -

No one will ever know if you'r lying about 'Hamas',
(That is anyone who doesn't love the occupation, Israel and her national agendas)
Because you get to fabricate the evidence, and the building itself is now a huge pile of damn rubble.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 20 May 2021 11:15:41 AM
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One dead jewish girl, but how many people did did Israel make dead to make up for it.
The numbers are ALWAYS going to be massively disproportionate, because that's how Israel rolls.
'You kill one of us, we'll kill 10 on you'
- 'Know your place, accept the occupation and LOVE IT, or we'll kill you and your family'

Which brings us back to the beginning.
The human response to this cancer on the planet should be to nuke the whole god damn lot to end all the suffering, that will just going to keep on going FOREVER otherwise or until all the Palestinians are wiped from the face of the earth entirely.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 20 May 2021 11:22:55 AM
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Truth is Israel is probably glad one of their own copped it, because it creates a context for retaliation.
- And that's all it cares about - furthering it's national agendas.
Israel doesn't really care about that one girl.
- Her death is a price its gladly willing to pay, because if it wasn't:
- Then the government wouldn't continue to follow the course that it does.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 20 May 2021 11:35:03 AM
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'You kill one of us, we'll kill 10 on you'
Armchair Critic,
The Palestinians can easily put a stop to this imbalance, alas !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 20 May 2021 2:02:04 PM
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AC

That's despicable.

Israel has gone out of its way to protect its civilians whereas Hamas has done nothing.
Posted by shadowminister, Thursday, 20 May 2021 2:27:14 PM
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Dear mhaze,

Utter tripe yet again.

You prattled on with: “You just assumed I didn't know it was from 2014. No evidence - just a giant leap to conclusion. How very SR of you.”

Mate, you prefaced the quote with these very words:

“Re the downed building and who was actually there...”

The building wasn't downed in 2014 was it.

And I can just imagine your take on the Yom Kipper War. The Egyptians and Syrians were attempting to regain the land stolen by Israel during the Six Day War six years before. A war mind you that was entirely started by Israeli 'per-emptive' aggression.

Within two years of Yom Kipper Israel was forced to agree to hand back the Sinai at the negotiating table. This was despite grandiose plans for it within some sections of the Israeli government.

As to this call to Rache: “I can't help but notice no acknowledgement of dead Jewish kids.”

Just nick off. There was absolutely no acknowledgement by you of the extraordinary long list of Palestinians including women and children who died that night on a busy street in Gaza. Yet here you are calling out someone else for not speaking to a 5% of that figure who were Israeli casualties.

What a hypocritical tosser.

Dear Armchair Critic,

The Israeli government has been doing it for years. They deliberately put their citizens in harms way by having them settled in the occupied territories and when they are wounded or killed it is an excuse for home demolitions and further land acquisitions. What a venal lot they are.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 20 May 2021 2:31:40 PM
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SR,

Its always fun to watch you unravel as you come to realise that you've been exposed again as less than erudite.

"Mate, you prefaced the quote with these very words:“Re the downed building and who was actually there...” The building wasn't downed in 2014 was it.

I'm sure you think there's some logic in that, but you'd be wrong.Actually I think you know you're wrong but as we've seen so often you'd prefer to look the clown than admit error.

I wrote about Yom Kippur from the point of view of its strategic and tactical brilliance.Although Israel was aware that a war of aggression was planned by the coalition of Arab enemies, they were nonetheless caught off guard and initially pushed back on all fronts. But through the quality of their leadership and lower ranks, they halted the enemies advance and then launched devastating counter-attacks that resulted in an unbelievable victory despite being massively outnumbered in men and equipment. One of the most astonishing victories in all history.

I'm not in the least surprised that you'd see the Six Day War the way you describe. You completely ignore (or perhaps don't know about) the closure of the Straits of Tiran and the Egyptian mobilisation and expelling of peace keepers. Fairly typical of you.

"Within two years of Yom Kipper Israel was forced to agree to hand back the Sinai at the negotiating table."

Yom Kippur happened in 1973. Israel agreed to hand the Sinai back in 1978. Ask a 5 yr old to explain to you why that's not 2 years. Forced? Israel had offered to hand it back in 1967 but Sadat preferred to try his hand at taking it back in war. The Israelis finally left in 1982. There's been peace with Egypt ever since.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 20 May 2021 6:07:53 PM
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mhaze,

The hatred of Jews goes back as far as ancient Greece where they were persecuted, probably for the same reasons they were driven out of many European countries during various pogroms. These same reasons have frequently been used by the West against several religious and ethnic groups as required.

It's not who they are but what they do that is the basis of my opinion of the nation - not the people.

I've never been comfortable with their support of Apartheid in South Africa where they helped train security forces or their sale of weapons to South American dictators or their refusal to admit possession of a nuclear arsenal and thus deny international inspection while demanding the same from others. I don't like it when their agents travel to other countries on forged passports for the purpose of assassination or posed as bogus Al Quaeda cells or deliberately lied about their use of WMDs.
I especially thought their medical aid to wounded ISIS members near their border was a strange move while we were at war.

Since their PM Rabin was assassinated by a right-wing extremist and brought and end to the Oslo Accord they have been ruled by aggressive Zionists with no intention of making peace but striving to achieve "Greater Israel" and sentenced the remaining Palestinians to decades of oppression and humiliation.

This event was the result of deliberate provocation, likely intended to at shore up the threatened leadership of their current corrupt leader Netanyahu.

I'm appalled at the loss of all lives but realise that Israel officially considers the lives of the families of targetted Hamas members as legitimate collateral damage.

However the targetting of two Palestinian trauma surgeons plus the bombing of all access roads to their main Hospital is a barbaric act by any standard.

Maybe we should be concerned by the idea that there may be between 100 and 300 Australian citizens currently serving in the IDF (FOI requests for current numbers are being refused) and may have been participating in acts of brutality and potential war crimes.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 20 May 2021 10:55:03 PM
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Hey shadowminister,

Whats despicable?
- I'm not the one dropping bombs on women, kids and the elderly.
If you think my opinions are despicable then what do you think about people that actually do commit such acts?
- I suppose they're angels in your book.
Come down from heaven above to bring peace and goodwill to the world?
Huh?

What have I said that's untrue?
What's your problem 'despicable' exactly? Please explain this.

How dare I not love the killing?
Should I be dancing around with glee at the 'culling of the natives'?

http://youtu.be/Fihmc_tzwLk
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 21 May 2021 4:17:41 AM
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SteeleRedux's posts clearly demonstrate why peace doesn't get a foot in the door there !
Posted by individual, Friday, 21 May 2021 7:28:55 AM
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AC

"Truth is Israel is probably glad one of their own copped it" is despicable.

I gather that you consider Hamas despicable as they are the ones firing anti-personnel rockets at civilians.

Israel is at attempting to prevent civilian casualties.

SR,

Israel did not start the 6-day war, Nasser was beating the drums of war for months before it started. Egypt Jordan and Syria had built up their armies and had deployed them on Israel's border. The trigger for the war was not even Egypt expelling UN peacekeepers, the first act of war was Egypt blockading Israel's southern port of Eilat.

So SR don't lie.

Secondly, in spite of Egypt's early success in the surprise attack on Yom Kippur Israel quickly rallied and destroyed the Syrian 1200 strong tank force before turning east and smashing the Egyptian force and crossing the Suez to occupy most of the east bank.

Israel was not forced to relinquish the Sinai, it did so in exchange for a peace treaty with Egypt and recognition of Israels right to exist. An act that saw Sadat assassinated.

Syria refused and has now permanently lost the Golan heights.
Posted by shadowminister, Friday, 21 May 2021 1:11:23 PM
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Dear mhaze,

Lol. It is at it reads ya mug.

Nothing from you acknowledging the terrible toll of Palestinian women and children slaughtered in the streets of Gaza. It appears your hatred knows no bounds.

The timeline of conflict goes something like this.

Two years after the first Arab-Israeli conflict cause by the declaration of independence by Israel, during which Israeli B17 Flying Fortress bombers bombed Cairo and Egypt ultimately closes the Strait of Tiran.

1956 Israel invades Egypt after Egypt had nationalised the Suez canal. France and the UK pile on in too after all that is what nations built on colonisation do. The Straits are reopened as part of the negotiations.

1967 “On 5 June, Israel launched a series of airstrikes against Egyptian airfields, initially claiming that it had been attacked by Egypt, but later stating that the airstrikes were preemptive. The aftermath saw Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights, Gaza and West Bank.

The Yom Kipper war was an attempt by Egypt and Syria with expedition forces from other countries to regain the territory lost in 1967.

The Israelis were more than just aware of the impending hostilities but had discussed plans to pre-emptively strike on that very day although that is not what the general narrative would have us believe.

“Prime Minister Golda Meir, Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan and Chief of General Staff David Elazar met at 8:05 am on the morning of Yom Kippur, six hours before the war began. Dayan opened the meeting by arguing that war was not a certainty. Elazar then presented his argument in favor of a pre-emptive attack against Syrian airfields at noon, Syrian missiles at 3:00 pm, and Syrian ground forces at 5:00 pm: "When the presentations were done, the prime minister hemmed uncertainly for a few moments but then came to a clear decision. There would be no preemptive strike. Israel might be needing American assistance soon and it was imperative that it would not be blamed for starting the war. 'If we strike first, we won't get help from anybody,' she said." “

shadowminister,

So a blockade is an act of war?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 21 May 2021 3:51:51 PM
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Did any of you ever watch Hogan's Heroes?
I'm sure you all have.

Do you know who Hogan and his men were.
- Prisoners of war locked behind a fence - That's the Palestinians.
- Who are Israel then? - Well that would be the Germans who keep them locked up.

You say the Palestinians can put an end to all this?
What do you want them to do 'Join the Germans' or 'Just Leave'?

Well the Palestinians can't join the Jews even if they wanted to.
Did you expect Hogan and his men to join the Germans? - but I digress

- Apart from the Biblical problem that Jews were commanded by God to make war against the Amelekites (Palestinians)
You also have the issue of Jewish bloodlines.
- They're not going to breed with them, it's a part of their religious apartheid nature.

Hogan and his men could leave, but they stayed to gather intel on the Germans.
But the Palestinians can't leave. where are they going to go?

Tell me how many her would make friends with people that want you all dead?
Any hands?
Let see a show of hands people.
I can be sarcastic because no-ones going to put their hand up anyway, right?

"I gather that you consider Hamas despicable as they are the ones firing anti-personnel rockets at civilians."
- Well to answer that question.

Did you know US congress had to ok a 736 million sale of JDAM to Israel this past week?
http://youtu.be/tSsNiM6Nq9M

Well the thing I find despicable is that we really don't have a fair fight. You've got a bully picking on a weakling. Maybe that's just the Aussie in me. I suppose once upon a time Aussies might've seen the Jews as the weaklings in a different fight, and supported them which helped create this mess...
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 22 May 2021 1:50:53 AM
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[Cont]

If your asking me if it's despicable that the Palestinians don't also have smart bombs and state of the art technology like US troops new night vision set-ups then I say yes.

We should give the Palestinians equal weaponry, and communication technology.

You know what I think 'all the people that want to do killing for what they believe, we should seperate them arm them all and give them equal ammo, then they can go out in the paddock and kill each other.
The problem will be solved and the rest of us can all just get on with it without this crap.

- I could maybe tolerate a fair fight.
But if you want me to get excited over shooting fish in a barrel, then I think your all insane.

My friend bought a puppy and complained when it pissed on his carpet.
I said a puppys going to do what a puppy does.
He's having problems with his son, who hanging with the wrong crowd.
I said if you create a dysfunctional kid, then he's going to act dysfunctional.

As for this mess.
If you lock people up and treat them like animals, then they will act like animals.
I would too, but thankfully I'm not in that situation.

I'm guessing you didn't bother watching the video I posted?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 22 May 2021 1:58:36 AM
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You see I thought you were mad because I said Israel was a 'terrorist government'.
- I probably should've called the 'terrorist regime'. since you lose the legitimacy of being called a government when you attack the media, and I think blowing up that building covers that.

You see Menachen Begin was an active participant in the King David Hotel bombing back when this crap all started, and he also was a founder of the Likud Party.

So there you have it.
I can say that 'based on merit'
The modern state of Israel was founded on terrorism, and the current ruling political party was founded by terrorists.

And all we've gotten is 70+ years of endless killings to show for it.
- What a great success the modern state of Israel is, what a blessing to humanity
Pffttt.

- This crap's gone on for generations and there's little chance of it ending anytime soon.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 22 May 2021 2:14:10 AM
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For the ignoramus SR

https://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e252

"Blockade, in the ordinary sense, is purely an act of war. It means the closing of an enemy's ports, and the capture of all vessels, neutral or hostile, attempting to enter with knowledge of the blockade. It enables a belligerent to seize vessels on the high seas bound for a blockaded port."

Egypt blockading Israel's port was a pure act of war by Egypt which triggered the pre-emptive strike by Israel.

That since 1948 Israel Egypt Syria and Jordan were technically in a state of ceasefire and still technically at war, your claim that Israel started the 1967 war is pure bollocks.
Posted by shadowminister, Saturday, 22 May 2021 3:22:24 AM
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Shadowminister,

Great, glad we got that sorted.

Therefore, I'm sure you will agree, the Iraeli blockade of the Port of Gaza is also a pure act of war, fully justifying an armed response by the Gazan people.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 22 May 2021 10:33:00 AM
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Absolutely correct, Shadowminister. Egypt started the war with Israel in 1967 when it blockaded the Israeli port of Eilat. A blockade is an act of war.

As for the rest of Steeelie's characteristically ignorant rant.

1. How is it that when Israelis seeked self determination in 1956 that is utterly wrong, but when people calling themselves "Palestinians" want the same thing it is just wonderful? Bit of a double standard there, Steelie.

2. If tomorrow, the Australian government decided to" nationalise" your house, Steelie, you might consider it an act of outright theft. By what logic do consider Britain and France attempting to retake their property stolen from them by Egypt to be wrong? Both Britain and France were both responsible for preserving Egyptian culture at the time when the Egyptians were too backward and ignorant to do it themselves. It was a Frenchman who first deciphered Egyptian hieroglyphics, allowing the Egyptians to learn about their own ancient history. It makes me wonder why specimens such as your good self are so opposed to colonialism? Any cursory look at a history book would tell you that after the Europeans left their former colonies, most of them went backwards.

3. The Yom Kippur War was an attempt by Arab nations to totally destroy Israel, you fool. If the Syrians had broken through at the Golan and the Egyptians had broken through at Sinai, do you seriously think that they intended to stop at the Israeli border?

The one thing which drives the Arab/Israeli conflicts is the total rejection of the Arab Muslim states to accept that the Jews have retaken their lands which were previously conquered by the armies of Islam. That is absolute anathema to them. Where Islam has conquored, that is Islamic land forever. Ein Reich, ein volk. And to fight against the Jews is to ensure your ticket to heaven. Which is about the only thing that Arabs can ever look forward to since their lives are so miserable. Other than, of course, gate crashing some western country to live a life that Islam can never give them
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 22 May 2021 11:04:25 AM
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Armchair seems utterly immune to facts. He wants to believe that the building that housed Associated Press was taken down because it housed AP. And if he wants that to be true, he believes it is true.

That there is overwhelming evidence that the building also housed Hamas operatives and units of Hamas's intelligence services (such as they are!) is entirely unconcerning to people like Armchair. That that was the reason the building was taken out doesn't compute to these dills.

But the most important lesson here, that the anti-Jew brigade will assiduously not learn, is that the news services they rely on to tell them what to think, were living and working right next to Hamas operatives - and lying about it. There has been any number of incidents over the years that prove that news agencies, particularly those of the left, are prepared to lie and hide facts, in the service of the regimes they live with and often admire.

But the AC's of the world aren't interested in that. So long as they keep getting feed stories that they like and want to believe, they are happy. That its all bunkum is immaterial.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 22 May 2021 11:50:28 AM
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Thanks for the history lesson SR. That its about as biased a rundown of the history of the Arab-Israel conflict as I've seen is merely to be expected from the likes of SR. (I'd note that he did all that in the service of trying to get past his monumental error vis the return of the Sinai to Egypt, but we'll let that pass).

Personally, I don't get too hung up on the rights or wrongs of the various wars. Was Israel right to launch pre-emptive war in 1967? Immaterial in my view. But it was the correct move given the outcome. (Justified is different to correct). The events of 1973 when they didn't preemptively strike shows that to good effect.

Israel is in a war for its very existence. At the darkest hour during Yom Kippur Moshe Dayan declared that the Israeli state was finished. And several Islamists have pointed out that Israel can win all the wars its wants, but if it loses one, its over.

So the state is constantly battling for its very existence. That and the lives of its Jewish citizens. As such issues of right and wrong, justified and unjustified must and do run a distance second to issues of efficacy and prudence. When your neighbour wants to eradicate you, niceties aren't a top priority.

This is realpolitiks are its most raw. The existence of the Jewish state and the lives of the Jews there, is constantly in the balance. They were close to being wiped out in 1973 when they did the virtuous thing but prevailed in spectacular fashion in 1967 when they followed the prudent course.

That's the only lesson that needs to be learned there.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 22 May 2021 12:08:22 PM
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Dear mhaze,

If me getting the dates wrong re the return of the Sinai by a few years is elevated in your eyes as a "monumental error" then you obviously have very slim pickings indeed. Lol.

To paraphrase you:

'This is realpolitiks are its most raw. The existence of the Palestinian state and the lives of the Palestinians there, is constantly in the balance. The Gazans were close to being just like the West Bank with checkpoints, land grabs, illegal settlements and daily humiliations but have prevailed in spectacular fashion and continue to do so with staunch resistance to a terrorist state.'

The Yom Kippur war was indeed an attempt to recover land occupied by Israel and Egypt an Syria nearly succeed due to some rather spectacular incompetence on behalf of the Israelis a fair bit of which was revealed in the Agranat Commission.

Your starry eyed rendering of that war is not supported by the facts. Israel also had the support of a world super power through Operation Nickel Grass.

It's 'very existence' was not threatened during this war at all.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 22 May 2021 12:49:04 PM
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SR write: "If me getting the dates wrong...."

Red letter day folks...SR admits a mistake.

"Egypt an[d] Syria nearly succeed due to some rather spectacular incompetence on behalf of the Israelis..."

Yep the Israelis made quite a few errors. Of course, in the fog of war, almost every army makes errors. "nearly succeed[ed]..". ie failed.

Israel won the war and then won the peace. Egypt was knocked out of the Soviet sphere and joined the US alliance which then brokered the first peace between Israel and an Arab state. Syria entered the war hoping to become the paramount power in the region and ended up broken and battered and has never been the same since.

Yes Israel had support from the US. But the Arabs had support from the Soviets and about 30 other states from Cuba to North Korea and everything inbetween. They also had a massive advantage in men and equipment and the often decisive advantage of surprise.

Yet Israel survived and then prospered.It was an astounding achievement showing that a relatively smaller force, well trained and well led and fighting for their and their loved one's lives, can overcome overwhelming odds.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 22 May 2021 2:08:32 PM
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"Armchair seems utterly immune to facts. He wants to believe that the building that housed Associated Press was taken down because it housed AP. And if he wants that to be true, he believes it is true."

You seem immune to reality.
You seem to think you can build a fence around peoples homes and that they will love you and not throw rocks at you.
You think you can keep you boot on peoples throats and treat them like animals and then jump up and down saying 'These uncivilised people act like animals'.
Yes they do, and Israel did it to itself.

How dare the Palestinians not love us, how dare they fight back
- those naughty terrorists -

Meanwhile the other side does the same but it's called the IDF.
I'm thinking members of the IDF they build global careers out of killing Palestinians.
They get hired to teach our cops how to treat our own citizens like enemies in a warzone.

The IDF they kill them in their beds, do the Palestinians kill Israeli leaders in their beds?

I keep telling you, that building was dropped because of the antennas on the roof.
Those antennas are worth 1000 Hamas any day of the week on their own.
No more communications network.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 22 May 2021 2:48:33 PM
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To mhaze.

It is just so interesting how Steelie and AC can get a perfectly understandable and historically recorded situation involving the Muslim/Israel war completely backwards. I am sure it comes about because they have not got a clue about history or what actually happened in the past, and they don't want to know anyway. The way they think seems to go like this.

"I am a member of the intellectual elites, who are intellectually superior to the working class and morally superior to the middle and upper classes. My class of superior people know better than everybody else, because we are just oh, so bloody smart. The leaders of my chosen caste have told me what to think on the Israeli /Palestine war and all I have to do is parrot what they tell me, because they are the guardians of the gate for all that is good and holy, so these self appointed leaders of my superior caste would never lie."

'Being a member of this superior caste is extremely important to me, so I will never contradict the party line because all my friends are superior caste wannabees like me, and I don't want my friends to shun me."

"Therefore, I prefer not to actually read any history books, because I don't need to be confused by unpleasant and inconvenient facts, which would cause me to doubt my superior castes ability to think straight and know everything."
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 22 May 2021 7:16:22 PM
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Dear mhaze,

You wrote: "It was an astounding achievement showing that a relatively smaller force, well trained and well led and fighting for their and their loved one's lives, can overcome overwhelming odds."

Describes the Gazan people and Hamas to a tee.

Yom Kippur really wasn't a surprise attack. Israeli leaders were discussing rocketing Syrian and Egyptian positions that morning. They presumably wouldn't not have done so without knowing they were fully capable of responding.

They had significant strategic advantage with well constructed lines in the Heights and the Sinai. The attackers were always going to suffer significant losses in taking them.

The ambitions of the Egyptians and Syrians were to reclaim land lost in 67. I don't think there was a single enemy tank or soldier who entered any part of Israel proper.

The Israelis knew there was only so close they could get to Damascus without inviting Soviet intervention the attackers understood the prospect of US intervention if Israel was under imminent threat.

The likes of Moshe Dayan would have everyone including yourself that this was an existential threat to Israel, it plainly wasn't despite the myths you absorbed as a youth.

When Sadat first came to power he had reached out to Israel to make peace, asking the IDF be moved back 32KMs east of the canal. They refused leaving him little choice but to seek a military solution to getting Egyptian territory back.

Ultimately all Sinai was returned to Egypt and Yom Kippur was part of that process. But think of the lives that could have been saved if Israel had responded more positively to Sadat's original proposal.

All this is diverting but we still have women and children who were slaughtered in a Gazan street only a few days ago, and you still have not either acknowledged nor commented on it. Yet your utterly faux sense of moral superiority allows you to call another poster a jew-hater for not immediately commenting on the deaths of a vastly smaller number of Israeli civilian casualties. Why do you think that is?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 22 May 2021 8:11:36 PM
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It is a waste of time arguing about a two nation settlement.
The Palestinians have never failed to reject such proposals.
The only settlement is either all the Jews are killed or they leave
the Middle East. In any area there must be no Jews.
They have said it loudly and often enough, why does no one believe them ?
One or the other has to go.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 22 May 2021 10:35:00 PM
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Dear Bazz,

«It is a waste of time arguing about a two nation settlement.»

Indeed, like attempting to open a door that is already open!

An Israeli-Palestinian settlement ALREADY exists.
Both sides want and agree to continue fighting.
Just because some people sit securely here in Australia and dislike this settlement, does not mean that it does not exist!

Two weeks ago, Netanyahu was in big trouble: he was about to lose his control over Israel, which could mean that his family goes bankrupt and he finds himself in prison on corruption/bribery charges.
So he made an urgent phone call, asking his friend from the Hamas in Gaza for help... and it worked!
Some 100's of casualties later, 1000's wounded and destruction in the billions, the missiles have spoken and all calls to replace Netanyahu have been silenced. Mission accomplished, both sides are very happy and promise to continue to cooperate in future.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 23 May 2021 12:08:26 AM
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For those who's total ignorance of history is utterly appalling, let me correct you with facts.

Of course the Yom Kippur war was a complete surprise to Israel. It was such a surprise that the Arabs nearly won. And if they had won they would have exterminated the state of Israel, looted the place, killed every man, and raped every Jewish woman and girl. True to their Islamic way of war, they would have rewarded their Jihadi soldiers by allowing them to take the Jewish women and girls as "wives" and sex slaves. The Jewish children would have been forcibly converted to Islam and made Muslims.

The Jewish defences on the Suez were indeed formidable but very thinly held. The Golan was defended by a very thin screen of Centurion tanks because almost all Israeli soldiers were home with their families for Yom Kippur.

What stopped the Arabs was the determination of that very thin screen of Israeli soldiers to die in the bunkers and tanks, rather than give an inch to the invading hordes of murdering and raping Arabs. The Arabs, confident in their overwhelming numbers, and dreaming of their rape and pillage rewards, were no match for men who knew exactly what would happen to their families if the Arabs broke through. Jews don't walk meekly into the gas chambers anymore.

And break through on both fronts the Arabs nearly did. Israel started fuelling up their Jericho nuclear armed ballistic missiles, and if the Arabs had broken through to exterminate Israel, it would have been goodbye Damascus, goodbye Cairo, goodbye Amman, and goodbye Baghdad. No great loss anyway.

The USA's orbiting satellites picked up the preparations for launch, and in a panic US President Nixon rang Soviet dictator Brezhnev to tell him about it. The USSR threatened Israel with nuclear retaliation if they launched. Israel told Brezhnev to get stuffed. It was now a matter of survival, and if Israel was going to be exterminated, it would take its enemies with them.

Fortunately, the magnificent IDF mobilised in time and they turned the tables on the Arab armies.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 23 May 2021 7:03:00 AM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

Rubbish mate.

Even the police chief places the blame for this violence squarely on the head of Knesset member Itamar Ben Gvir. Netanyahu has had to swing even further to the right to form government and this has been the direct result.

"Referring to the uprising, Israeli police commissioner Kobi Shabtai reportedly told the PM: "The person who is responsible for this intifada is Itamar Ben Gvir.""

No phone calls needed.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 23 May 2021 8:48:43 AM
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"Yom Kippur really wasn't a surprise attack. "

The Israelis knew, or at least suspected, that the Arabs would launch another war against them in the near future. But the timing was a surprise and consequently they were unprepared for the attack when it came. You just asserting otherwise doesn't cut the mustard.

"They had significant strategic advantage with well constructed lines in the Heights and the Sinai. The attackers were always going to suffer significant losses in taking them."

Yes. As a rough rule of thumb, an attacker against a well designed defensive position will need a numerical advantage of 3 or 5 to 1.
The Arabs had much more than that. But you seem to be saying they stood no chance. So are you suggesting their defeat was inevitable and therefore they were idiots to launch the war?

"The ambitions of the Egyptians and Syrians were to reclaim land lost in 67. I don't think there was a single enemy tank or soldier who entered any part of Israel proper."

Sadat said he wanted push Israel back to its pre-1967 boarders. So not just Sinai and Golan. The enemy didn't get to Israel proper because they were comprehensively defeated!! What a berk.

"it plainly wasn't [an existential threat to Israel]". Yeah well you just asserting it, doesn't cut the mustard.

Sadat "ask[ed] the IDF be moved back 32KMs east of the canal". Any evidence for that? There's plenty of evidence of Sadat saying he wanted the whole of Sinai back.
Posted by mhaze, Sunday, 23 May 2021 2:11:13 PM
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Death of women and kids.

It was SR and Armchair who slavishly parroted the Hamas propaganda by talking about the dead in Gaza while ignoring the dead in Israel.

All deaths are regrettable, especially of non-combatants. But only the apologists for Hamas want to use those deaths for propaganda value. That's why I mentioned the Israeli deaths and specifically asked SR and/or AC to show the same compassion for those deaths as they purported to show for the Palestinian deaths. They have declined to do so.

While the deaths are regrettable, they are inevitable in war. Especially when Hamas is deliberately trying to kill non-combatants while using their own peoples as human shields for the leadership. They are also inevitable when 10% of the Hamas rockets misfire and hit their own people.
Posted by mhaze, Sunday, 23 May 2021 2:19:13 PM
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"\I'm still waiting for SteeleRedux to tell us if all the Palestinian casualties would still have occurred if the Hamas indoctrinated hadn't fired their rockets ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 23 May 2021 2:51:54 PM
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Dear LEGO,

Indeed, your description of the Yom Kippur war is glorious, thank you!

But alas, that was in 1973 where Israel still had a strong moral advantage over the Arabs. Sadly, since the wave of arrogance that accompanied the 1967 occupation, that gap keeps narrowing and when moral corruption slips in, physical destruction is not far following. It happened before, not once had the Jews lost their land due to their sins.

I write this in tears since I have family in Israel and I want them to live and thrive. They and I understand that only the ending of the 1967 occupation can save them.

I don't care one iota about the so-called "Palestinians" - I only care about the restoration of the underpinning moral fabric of Israel which was torn in 1967, nor do I fear those "Palestinians" and their allies, but rather what might be their historical role behind the scenes:
“Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.“ [Isaiah 10:5-6]

---

Dear SteeleRedux,

Even the police chief - recently appointed by Netanyahu and who proved himself to be Israel's least competent ever and accounting for that many preventable disasters?

Indeed, that Nazi filth Ben Gvir (lit. son-of-a-rich-man) was the immediate visible cause, but why did the police fail to prevent his provocations, and why did they zigzag all the way in the matter of the Ramadan prayers, demonstrating extreme weakness thus inviting further provocations from both sides? The most likely explanation is being thus instructed by their political superiors. Being a Knesset member, Ben Gvir himself could not be arrested - but his followers could, so why weren't they?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 23 May 2021 4:03:30 PM
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All this talk of 1967 and Yomkipper war etc is irrelevant.
You must remember that Arabs have been marrying their cousins for some
thousands of years and it has affected their average intelligence.
This makes it easy for the clever ones among them to manipulate the majority.
If you doubt this talk to someone with experience of even mildly
intellectually handicapped people how easy it is to misguide them.

To talk of wars in the last 40 years is pointless.
The Koran, Hadith etc only talks to them of the wars since 623 etc.
That is what they believe and why a two state solution is not viable.
They are instructed to kill all the jews and even Christians get the chop.
Perhaps this all explains to you why the Islamic terrorists act in
the way they do even while domiciled in western countries.
It is not pleasant to talk of this but the facts must be faced.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 23 May 2021 4:54:09 PM
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Dear Bazz,

Do you know any Muslim people?
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 23 May 2021 5:57:34 PM
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At this time only one couple. In previous times some others but not
very well.
I can see where you are about to go, but it is not relevant.
I have however read a few reports on the subject related to schools
for the handicapped.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 23 May 2021 8:11:51 PM
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Dear Bazz,

Once again you are full of it. Cousin marriages? How's this?

“What is clear, is that no opinion in the Talmud forbids marriage to a cousin or a sister's daughter (a class of niece), and it even commends marriage to the latter - the closer relation of the two. The implied support for marriage between cousins appears to have historically been taken to heart; in 19th century England, the proportion of Jewish marriages occurring between cousins was 3.5 times higher than for the marriages of other religions; in 19th century Lorraine the proportion was twice as high as that for Roman Catholics, and 12 times higher than that for Protestants.”
Wikipedia

Doesn't seem to have stopped them?

Dear Yututusu,

A Nazi indeed. Ben Gvir doing it as a favour for Bibi I can see as a more realistic scenario. Whatever the motivation is really must be very frightening for moderate Israelis. I wish for all the best for your family.

As to LEGO's description of the Yom Kippur war as glorious, most myths are.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 23 May 2021 9:26:38 PM
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Dear mhaze,

I got the list of the dead from the B'Tselem website a very well respected Israeli rights organisation. What you are trying to do now is flag it as Hamas propaganda which is utterly disrespectful to those who have perished and absolutely craps on any faux acknowledgement by you.

You bluster: “But the timing was a surprise and consequently they were unprepared for the attack when it came. You just asserting otherwise doesn't cut the mustard.”

The timing was not a surprise at all. Dayan was the only one in the room who thought it was not going to happen on that day. Meir and Elazar knew it as did Henry Kissinger who messaged Meir and said “Don't Preempt”.

What was a surprise was how many tanks the Syrians were able to muster and how quickly the Egyptians crossed the Suez. The IDF had estimated it would take 48 hours for a beach head to be established in which they would have time to respond . The Egyptians led by the brilliant General Shazly managed to have 500 tanks across the canal in under 10 hours. The plan was always not to advance outside the range of the anti aircraft defenses with Artillery Road being the furtherest point east, nowhere near threatening Israel proper.

“After that initial victory, Shazly clashed with president Sadat over Sadat's decision to launch a new offensive to advance towards Sinai Passages. General Shazly strongly opposed any eastward advance that would leave Egyptian forces exposed to IAF without adequate air cover. Sadat insisted and ordered the generals to execute the order which aimed at helping the Syrians. On October 14, the offensive was launched but failed with heavy Egyptian losses.”
Wikipedia

Finally it is utterly laughable the either Syria or Egypt would have even thought about invading Israel proper. Israel was nuclear armed and fully prepared to use nukes against Cairo and Damascus. Meir repeatedly threatened to do just that. All they were after was to reclaim their own territories. Nothing you have provided nor in the historical record suggests otherwise.

Berk.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 23 May 2021 9:32:35 PM
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SR,

Nice try except that Gaza is not independent.

The Iranians and other terrorist states are trying to supply Hamas with weapons and so entry into Gaza is controlled. The Israeli operations over the last few days were to destroy the weapons they had smuggled in.

The Arabs started the 1948 war the 1967 war and the 1973 war. Israel's secret weapon is that it cannot lose even once.
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 24 May 2021 3:36:47 AM
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What is it like down in the garden, dancing with the fairies, Steelredux? Where on Earth did you get your information on the Yom Kippur war? Al Jazeera? Pravda? The ABC?

The propaganda that you are re-transmitting, is that the noble Arab armies were only trying to take back the Arab lands stolen from them by Israel. What a load of bunkum. Well, I suppose you might have a point if you remember that as far as the Arabs are concerned, all of Israel is Arab territory. And the Jews supposedly "stole" it from them when they stopped accepting Islamic supremacy and created a Jewish state.

Your premise, that the Israelis knew all about the planned Yom Kippur attack simply does not make any sense at all. If the Israelis knew they were going to be attacked, they would have been insane not to immediately mobilise their forces instead of allowing their very thin screen of soldiers manning their frontier defences to be overwhelmed, and allow the Arab hordes to flood into their country and exterminate their families. Such things have happened before to the Jews, you know? Fairly regularly. They are a bit sensitive to the idea of their families being completely exterminated. All of them.

Your premise is akin to saying that Jewish leaders in 1936 knew exactly what Hitler planned for the Jews, and they let it all happen for some unknown reason. Your premise is that stupid.

If your premise was correct, then any Israeli leader who supposedly knew about the planned Arab invasion and did nothing would have been maligned today by Israel's free press as the worst kind of traitor. Think of Quisling and Petain on steroids. The Israeli tank crews manning the 140 Centurion tanks on the Golan, who took on 1600 Syrian tanks and held the line until the IDF could reinforce them are looked upon as genuine heroes today in Israel. And you are seriously trying to tell us that their own military leaders stabbed these Israeli heroes in the back and let them face impossible odds and die? For what?
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 24 May 2021 3:49:53 AM
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SR,

Now you are just making stuff up. Now you're suggesting that the Israeli government not only knew an attack was coming but also when it was coming. And that's just not true. Its laughably false.

At the very meeting where the preemptive strike was rejected, they also decided on a partial mobilisation. But had they known that the invasion was going to start a few hours hence, they would have called a full scale mobilisation. Indeed it was the delayed mobilisation that was partially responsible for the early Arab successes. There were good reasons to assume that Sadat would delay the invasion for another week or month while he gathered promised fighter jets and SCUD missiles. Even the US at the time, while aware that war was coming, were convinced it was not imminent.

But all this is mere window dressing. The Arabs waged aggressive war and lost. And they lost partially because of their own deficiencies and partially because the IDF was at that time probably the finest armed force in the planet.

"The Egyptians led by the brilliant General Shazly..."

The man was reasonably competent but that's all. By Arab standards he was excellent but by Israeli standards, just so-so. Remember that under his command the Israelis, despite lack of air superiority, were able punch through the Egyptian forces, cross the Suez and threaten Cairo, all with only half their forces, the other half giving an abject lesson to the Syrians.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 24 May 2021 10:41:24 AM
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Talking about the Israeli-Palestine conflict
we have to be careful not to perpetuate
the idea that it's a balanced conflict
instead of a largely unarmed people against
the fourth most powerful military in the world.

How can they speak to each other as equals when
one of them is holding a gun?
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 May 2021 11:05:50 AM
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When talking about the cycle of violence in
the Israeli-Palestine conflict we have to be
careful not to perpetuate the idea that it's
a balanced conflict, instead of a largely
unarmed people against the fourth most powerful
military in the world.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 May 2021 11:22:14 AM
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Foxy,

So what if it isn't a balanced fight? Do you then expect Israel not to protect its citizens, to simply sit back and take the missiles aimed at its civilian population? Don't be friggin ridiculous.

How about Hamas not firing or storing weapons in heavily populated areas (which is a war crime by the way).

How about Hamas giving a fig about its population rather than using them as human shields?
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 24 May 2021 1:30:24 PM
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Those "largely unarmed people" fired over 4000 rockets and mortar rounds into Israel during the 'conflict'. All aimed at civilian centres with the sole aim of killing civilians. But I guess that's OK because they're the goodies, eh?

I posted a link earlier which asked why the Israelis won't just let themselves be killed. It seems others on this site are asking the same thing.

"There’s a profound need in the West for the Jews to be proved bad people. Among the Israel-haters is a breathless eagerness for the moment when they can shout “gotcha” and then put the Jews into the public pillory."
http://www.jns.org/opinion/the-last-overlooked-but-still-active-front-of-world-war-ii/
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 24 May 2021 1:32:52 PM
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Quite simply - when it comes to Israel
and the Palestinians, we need a miracle.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 May 2021 1:44:10 PM
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Talking about the Israeli-Palestine conflict we have to be careful not to perpetuate the idea that it's a balanced conflict, instead of 1.8 Billion Muslims demanding that 9 million Israelis either bow the knee to Islam, get out of Dodge, or be exterminated and have their foxy Jewish females gang raped and turned into sex slaves.

How can they speak to each other when one side keeps demanding nothing less than the complete destruction of the Jewish state?
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 24 May 2021 1:52:51 PM
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Dear mhaze,

My goodness you are full of it.

You say: “Now you are just making stuff up. Now you're suggesting that the Israeli government not only knew an attack was coming but also when it was coming. And that's just not true. Its laughably false.”

So the Chief of General Staff has presented to the Prime Minister of Israel that very morning a plan “of a pre-emptive attack against Syrian airfields at noon, Syrian missiles at 3:00 pm, and Syrian ground forces at 5:00 pm” and yet you claim they had no idea when it was coming?

Bloody hell. Even when the evidence is right before your eyes you simply refuse to accept it. Ho much plainer can it be?

The reason why the Israelis were able to punch through was because the tank brigades General Shazly had in reserve for just such an eventuality were ordered by Sadat to cross the canal on an offensive mission strongly opposed by Shazly.

Shadowminister,

What does not independent even mean? The whole world recognises Gaza is being blockaded and as you say this is an act of war. So either they have the right to militarily respond as the Israelis did or they don't because they are of the wrong ethic group in your eyes.

A really pathetic but typical position for you to take.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 24 May 2021 4:47:19 PM
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SR,

Clearly you are out of your depth here. Its no shame since it takes years of study and reading to understand how these decisions are made and taken. Still, when you are clearly a novice its probably best to not be so strident in your (incorrect) assertions.

Yes the Chief of Staff presented Meir with the option of a preemptive strike and the plans for doing so. That's the job of Chief of Staff - to present options and prepare for those options. But just because the CoS offers the leadership plans, doesn't mean that those plans are the only ones available. At the very same meeting where the preemptive strike was considered, the Minister of Defence was also saying that he thought war was still avoidable. Why would he do that if the Israelis KNEW about the invasion and its timing? Additionally, if they knew about the timing, why were the plans for the preemptive strike set for after the actual invasion?

Its true that some Israelis in the leadership had grown convinced that war would start soon. But that's not the same as saying the Israelis knew it's timing. Right up to the actual invasion the Chief of Military Intelligence sided with Dayan in believing that war was still avoidable. Even those in Mossad who correctly predicted the day thought it would happen at sunset.

You're wrong on believing (hoping?) that it wasn't a surprise attack. Move on.

"The reason why the Israelis were able to punch through was because the tank brigades General Shazly had in reserve for just such an eventuality were ordered by Sadat to cross the canal on an offensive mission strongly opposed by Shazly."

Nup. Shazly did oppose the offensive but not because it committed reserves but because it moved his forces away from the SAM missile cover. It didn't commit reserves. They were still available after the Israelis had completely established themselves west of Suez. But the reserves were held back to protect Cairo.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 24 May 2021 6:13:37 PM
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Dear mhaze,

You put:

“Clearly you are out of your depth here. Its no shame since it takes years of study and reading to understand how these decisions are made and taken. Still, when you are clearly a novice its probably best to not be so strident in your (incorrect) assertions.”

Well that did get a laugh. Projection really is a feature of the right isn't it.

So we have gone from somewhere in the future:

“Although Israel was aware that a war of aggression was planned by the coalition of Arab enemies, they were nonetheless caught off guard and initially pushed back on all fronts.”

To somewhere in the near future:

“The Israelis knew, or at least suspected, that the Arabs would launch another war against them in the near future. But the timing was a surprise and consequently they were unprepared for the attack when it came.”

To within a week or so:

“There were good reasons to assume that Sadat would delay the invasion for another week”

To within a day:

“At the very meeting where the preemptive strike was rejected, they also decided on a partial mobilisation. But had they known that the invasion was going to start a few hours hence, they would have called a full scale mobilisation.”

To within the hour:

“...those in Mossad who correctly predicted the day thought it would happen at sunset “

Well golly gee, them tricky Arabs kept the poor Israelis completely in the dark. How utterly devious and conniving of them. They just can't be trusted it seems. They really should have done a letter drop on the Knesset stating the day and the hour.

Lol.

“They were close to being wiped out in 1973” No they most demonstrably were not. They were a nuclear armed nation, backed by the world's foremost superpower, facing forces whose main intent was recovery of their own land occupied by Israel not of conquering Israel itself.

Nor was it “One of the most astonishing victories in all history.” was it now.

What other superlatives did you employ in your essay? Lol.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 24 May 2021 7:14:05 PM
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A few quotes from the Israeli PM:

"The way to deal with Palestinians is to beat them up
not just once but repeatedly, beat them up so it
hurts so badly until its unbearable."

And another quote from Israel's "George Washington."

"We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians)
never do return."

(David Ben-Gurion. In his diary. 18 July 1948).
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 May 2021 7:24:28 PM
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A few quotes from the Muslim religious fascists that Foxy averts her eyes from.

"This is not a country of humans. These are animals and a group of gangs, this country must be wiped off the face of the earth." Palestinian Authority spokesman Ghazi Hamad.

'Allah wiling, the moment will come when their property will be destroyed and their sons annihilated, until not a single Jew is left on the face of the earth. HAMAS sermon at the Al Aqsa TV April 3, 2009.

"HAMAS would definitely not be prepared to co exist with Israel even if the Zionists returned to their pre 1969 borders." HAMAS leader Mahmoud al-Zahar.

It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history that will be talked about like the massacres of the Mongols or the crusades." Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League. October 11, 1947.

"We will never recognise Israel or cease to fight for our land." Khalid Marshaal, HAMAS Political Cheif.

"Israel's days are numbered. The people of the region would not miss the narrowest opportunity to annihilate this criminal regime." Mahmoud Ahmadinejad President of Iran.

Israel is much smaller than Iran and therefore much more vulnerable to nuclear attack." Former Iranian President Ali Rafsanjani."
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 25 May 2021 2:11:53 AM
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Once more for the dummies.

In 1944, General Kurt Haase of the Wehrmacht's 15th Army, based in Calais, in consultation with his intelligence service (Abwehr), had correctly concluded from the intercepted, coded messages from the allies to the French resistance, that the time and place of D-day would be Normandy, on the 6th of June. Field Marshal Gert von Rundstedt dismissed the idea as fanciful, as well as Hitler's headquarters, OKW. Rommel never heard of it because he was visiting his family in Germany.

That does not mean that the "the Germans", meaning of course the German high command and Hitler, knew when or where the allies would land.

On the morning of 7th of November, 1941, in Washington, US cryptologists successfully decoded a message from Tokyo to the Japanese ambassador informing him of an attack upon Pearl Harbour that morning, by the emperor's forces. With Hawaii a dozen time zones behind Washington. that gave the cryptologists only several hours with which to warn Pearl Harbour. But nobody from the Joint Chiefs of Staff could be contacted to authorise a message to Pearl, warning of the imminent attack.

That does not mean "the Americans", meaning of course the armed forces chiefs and the US government, knew about the impending attack.

If some clever MOSSAD analysts figured out that Israel was about to be invaded on Yom Kippur, that does not mean that "the Israelis", meaning of course the IDF leaders or the government, knew anything about the attack.

Only a leftie could be dumb enough to think that they must have.
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 25 May 2021 2:35:10 AM
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SR,

Obviously this is too hard for you to fathom. Yes, there were various part of the Israeli government and intelligence services who reached differing conclusions about when and if the Arab invasion would occur. Pointing out those differing opinions doesn't mean I'm changing my mind, just that I'm aware of the fact that government was trying to work out what was going on.

The fact that there was differing opinion within Israel is evidence that they didn't know when or if the invasion would occur and therefore evidence that when it did occur it was a surprise attack.

Its spectacularly naive of you to think that there was one and only one view within the government. Not only does it utterly misunderstand the situation at the time, it misunderstand almost all issues at all times.

One of the lessons that historians learn and most others don't is that you have to remember that the people of the time didn't know what we know. They didn't know the future. The naive look back and, knowing the outcome,assume those of the time knew it as well.

The fog of war means that the Israelis were struggling to understand what was happening and what was about to happen. That you can't see that is really very SR.

You quote me as saying "“There were good reasons to assume that Sadat would delay the invasion for another week”. The next two words in that quote were " or month". That changes the whole meaning of the quote, doesn't it?

Why do you partake in this type of deception? Why do you think you can slip it through? You surely know by now that I'll always pick you up on these falsehoods
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 25 May 2021 5:35:17 PM
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Arabs talking about Hamas...http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17390/hamas-palestinians-suffering?fbclid=IwAR3KG87Psh65pa9MqOatjgqVB77AhoRnKxccOiAV1sGdaFnRIQMxxHii5dM

"Real sympathy with the Palestinian people means searching for solutions for an actual and practical peace that guarantees their safety, security, and development," commented Saudi writer and researcher Abdulah Bin Binjad Al Otaibi. "The solutions should also stop those [Hamas] who are ready to burn Palestine and its people."

"Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood patrons do not care about the suffering or interests of the Palestinians," Al Otaibi wrote. "They only care about demonizing those who stand against them. Hamas is saying: Let the Palestinians die for the sake of a Muslim Brotherhood victory."
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 25 May 2021 5:41:11 PM
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What I find laughable is that SR thinks that Israel knew when Egypt and Syria were going to attack because Mossad knew they were preparing (sounds like a Tuesday) and because a few Mossad agents guessed more accurately.

If they had even reasonable suspicions they would have been far more prepared. Where the Arabs miscalculated was that they assumed that Israel would take 24-48 hrs to mobilise when they managed to do so in 10. Secondly, they assumed they could hold the east bank of the Suez and never expected Israel to cross the Suez and capture the west bank stranding their armies.

The humiliation of the Arabs was the main driving force for the Egypt Israeli peace deal.
Posted by shadowminister, Wednesday, 26 May 2021 6:39:28 AM
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Something you are not taking into account is that after the war
Britain collected all the enigma machines they could get hold of.
They gave them away without telling the the recipients that they had
cracked the machine.
After the war a number of Collesi were moved out of Bletchly Park to
the new Code and Cypher school. I suspect that one came to Canberra.
If the Arab countries received Enigmas, Britain could have been copying everything.
No doubt the techniques used on Enigma were
applied with the new mainframe computers.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 26 May 2021 1:21:08 PM
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