Freedom is doing what you want to do, and thinking what you want to think. No deep philosophy needed. You cannot have your freedom of thought removed, but authorities can certainly take away your physical freedoms. Sometimes loss of freedom is for the common good; sometimes it is sheer bastardry and politicians' lust for power (China and Victoria). Protests are useless, because the people who curtail your freedoms will use brute force and hurt you (China and Victoria).

Interesting article, but simply put, Covid-19 is not the real issue. Sure its a strong version of flu virus strain, sure it has killed million... BUT more die of starvation, terrorism, religious abuse and many natural causes. The killer aspect of covi1-9 lies in governments mismanagement and political opportunism ( and don't forget China.

We are all suffering financially, socially and mentally. Politicians are having a ball playing games and jockey for advantages. "Chiana" and WHO are still negotiating what studies are needed to assess the source but they are only looking at the wet market animal-human transfer! i.e a source that has been identified to be a weak candidate for the source using detailed DNA analysis!.

Freedom?... in these days of social media/ fake biased "mainstream news"... we have lost freedom long ago.

sheer bastardry and politicians' lust for power (China and Victoria).
ttbn,
I think in those two examples you're confusing necessity with lust for power !
How else could one deal with people to whom responsibility is a foreign word ?
And, to whom giving is a dirty word ?

There is a difference between Liberty and freedom.
Why can’t it be said we demand liberty of speech and not freedom of speech?

Quote unknown source:

*...Broadly speaking, liberty is the ability to do as one pleases. ... Thus liberty entails the responsible use of freedom under the rule of law without depriving anyone else of their freedom. Freedom is more broad in that it represents a total lack of restraint or the unrestrained ability to fulfill one's desires...*

In this comparative context, freedom of speech allows us unfettered rights to say anything anywhere.
So freedom of speech is actually an unresolvable problem

Dan

individual,

What "necessity"? If you are talking about Dictator Dan's tearing away of freedoms via lockdowns, lockdowns are totally Unnecessary and have proved to be useless at best, causing more problems at worst. All other Australian states, particularly mine, have done well. Victoria's loss of freedoms has turned it into a basket case and a mini-China. If anyone is 'confused' it isn't me.

People lacking responsibility can be dealt with without punishing the entire population and attacking their freedoms as the psychopath in Little China has done.

Freedom includes freedom from infected folk roaming without constraint spreading as super spreaders, a highly contagious virus that has already taken over a million lives! Has infected over forty million and even though many of the infected spreaders don't experience symptoms, they can and do infect other folks who then infect other folks, who then go on to infect others! And at near lightning speed.

And there are possible long term negative consequences for the seemingly healthy infected cohort?

Most of these folk are the reason all our freedom is compromised. In the UK, e.g., only 11% of folks who have been asked to self-isolate have been compliant! And the reason there is now a second wave that may require enforced reduced freedom of movement? As the only current means envisaged of containing a highly contagious, contagion!

Perhaps the only way to get compliance, is a shoot the non-compliant with bean bag ammunition? And then spray the forehead with an indelible dye that takes a few months to scrub off?

So they are identifiable when breaching orders!

On a more positive note, the non-compliant have had their combined IQ tested and the results have come back negative?
Alan B.

Freedom is to do without affecting anyone else. It does not mean free as you please !
Freedom does not mean for the indoctrinated to dictate to the thinkers !

Shock, horror! 1 million people have died of the China virus, according to Alan, indicating his sorrow naturally enough.

But, 99% of people who caught the virus survived with only mild symptoms.

Vulnerable people should have the common sense to protect themselves. The bulk of the population should not have their lives made a misery. My wife and I are in the vulnerable age group, but we don't even get colds, let alone a killer virus, because we do have the common sense to act according to that vulnerability. We don't want the majority of the population, who won't die, to be hassled like criminals and quarantined. Particularly as it is those people, not us, who keep the world moving.

To pick a year at random, 55 million people died worldwide in 2015, many from cardio-vascular disease and other common diseases - nothing exported from China. No shock and horror about that.

A piddling 1 million deaths from one particular cause is no excuse for the removal of freedoms from the majority of people will barely notice they have the virus for more than a couple of days, and they certainly won't die.

ttbn,

I heard a rumor that it's just been discovered that the Covid-19 virus cannot be transmitted from humans to animals.

Apparently this indicates that the virus was engineered specifically to affect humans.

What's your take on this?

A Research Scientist did this work many months ago BUT, no one in the "fake" mainstream media is running with it. This poor lady stuck her neck out and probably will fall under a train somewhere in the world.

The WHO ignores her, as they promote "Chaina's" bat story ( an will possible even promote the Chiana/NewYork Times yarn that is was an USA black Ops attack (remember that one 6 months ago?)

Alison Jane,

I should have said 'confirmed' instead of 'discovered'.

Mr. O,

I believe that it is humans only that the CCP aspires to comtrol.

Posted by ttbn

"Freedom is doing what you want to do, and thinking what you want to think. No deep philosophy needed. You cannot have your freedom of thought removed, but authorities can certainly take away your physical freedoms. Sometimes loss of freedom is for the common good; sometimes it is sheer bastardry and politicians' lust for power (China and Victoria). Protests are useless, because the people who curtail your freedoms will use brute force and hurt you (China and Victoria)."

Answer- In philosophy they have viewed freedom differently throughout history. The definition of Aristotle (300BC) was different than the definition of Mill (about 1600-1700s).

Aristotle Freedom paraphrased- The person that is a slave to their desires is not free. The Platonic tradition believed that men needed to dedicate their lives to improving society- in a sense. For this reason they needed slaves to free them from the mundane activities necessary for life.

John Stewart Mill Freedom paraphrased- Negative freedom- Freedom so long as it doesn't constrain the freedom of others. The problem is freedom often does impact on the freedoms of others- even Mill admitted this in his "On Liberty".

Nietzsche (1900s) in Thus Spake Zarathustra also had his own complex views on freedom. He conclusion seems to be that everyone needs to create their own morality- these moralities seem destined to fight each other to the death. But perhaps there must be some fence of constraint should the victory not be hollow

ttbn,

You are missing the point.

What it means is that because it is not transmittable from humans to animals it is deemed to be not naturally occurring or derived from animals and then passed to humans as suspected ie people eating bats, etc.

It is therefore deemed to be artificial, fabricated by humans with the purpose of infecting humans. In other words - germ warfare developed by the Chinese.

One thing is for sure - the Chinese don't want outsiders investigating what happened so I'm guessing that it is a biological weapon that went wrong or totally out of Chinese control.

Did the Chinese deliberately infect themselves in Wuhan with the intention of testing it or creating an epicentre for spreading the virus by letting infected people in Wuhan travel around the globe?

Don't you think it a bit curious that the Chinese eradicated it when the rest of the world cannot stop it from getting worse.

Of course Popper’s ‘paradox’ remains, since freedom cannot stand alone in a diverse society.

1. Freedom – of thought, expression, association, and endeavour – while a key value to be prized overall by a society intent on surviving and thriving, is necessary but not sufficient.

In my reflections - from a mathematics of complex systems perspective – I would add the following necessary values

2. Capability for critical thinking and transparent engagement;
3. Social responsibility; and
4. Deep respect for tradition, culture, and intangibles (beauty etc.).

I see the four as being in dynamic balance and tension – relative, not absolute - but also irreducible. I would - but have not been able to - articulate them with precision, and even devise some “proof” or derivation that they together provide a society with its best prospects of success in the face of challenge or competition, drawing on the thinking and discipline of “complex adaptive systems” studies

An old debate, coloured by the Make Trump Great Again "freedom" to die.

"Planto", that's using "hip ABC lingo. Its about time you realised that Trump should/might/will win is a serious reality. Where are you going to run, hide and bury your head in the san ... "Chania", Iran, Venezuela? Na,,, probably North Korea!

Freedom is the topic, why not stick to the authors article rather than fart around with the same old platitudes? Life is tooooo short for that. Happy evening Planto.

I think this little clip does a good job of explaining some of the selfishness we have seen exhibited by the freedom flogs during this pandemic.

http://youtu.be/-KW7BrkzI1s

Very good and too the point... BUT Steelrednuts, look in the mirror and apply this to you and your fellow Climate Change Cultists and all the propganda you feed us!

But to get to the point, what are your boundaries of Freedom as expressed by the author of this article> would be interesting to see. sleep well. and wake up to the freedom you define for yourself in the morning.

Most of all, as the song goes... " don't worrry, beee Haaapppy!"

No one (including government) gave us our freedom, nor can anyone take our freedom away.

The illusion as if they can, comes from the observation that other bodies can push our body around, yet freedom never implied the complete control over one's body: bodies are subject to the laws of physics, thus they can be manipulated by the elements as well as by other bodies - denying that is insane. Moreover, to demonstrate how ridiculous the notion of bodily autonomy is, atoms from one body commonly migrate through the food-chain to other bodies, so won't the original owner still be able to control these atoms of their original body now that they are in another?

One of the inherent features of this world, is strict compliance with the laws of physics (or near-full compliance as some say, if saints and other miracle-makers are taken into consideration). If we are not ready to participate in this world as it is, identify with a unique (and one only) body and play by the rules of this physical game, then the question arises, seriously, why are we here in the first place?!

Our freedom is non-negotiable in the sense that we freely came into this world and we are free to leave it at any time (in fact we are even free to join or create other worlds where the rules are different). Knowing this, at least we need not feel hurt or humiliated when others' moves restrict our earthly bodies, for that is the only thing they can do. Our freedom remains untainted, so you do yourself no favour by thinking otherwise and feeling hurt and miserable over it!

Dear Alison,

You see I use to feel sorry for you and your ilk, now you just disgust me.

How is this propaganda?

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/files/2020/10/Figure-3.png

Yes this September was the second lowest Arctic sea ice extent in the last 40 years.

Please just go and spout your nonsense to your mirror, nobody with half a brain cares any more about what you lot crap on about. This is the future of our children, that is who were care about now.

Enough.

There are people who shouldn't be allowed out, Steele Redux is one of them !

No one (including government) gave us our freedom, nor can anyone take our freedom away.
Yuyutsu,
You're having yourself on aren't you ? Why don't you do as you preach & try to survive without others ?

Dear individual,

Really?

All I did was quite deliberately send back what was served up with a bit of added top spin. That is all.

Interesting thread by John Wright

I have done some research on Karl Poppers- Paradox of Tolerance.

There seems to be some issues with his ideas.

The following is interesting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society#Caveats

"Investor and philanthropist George Soros, a self-described follower of Karl Popper,[23] argued that sophisticated use of powerful techniques of subtle deception borrowed from modern advertising and cognitive science by conservative political operatives such as Frank Luntz and Karl Rove casts doubt on Popper's view of open society.[24] Because the electorate's perception of reality can easily be manipulated, democratic political discourse does not necessarily lead to a better understanding of reality.[24] Soros argues that in addition to the need for separation of powers, free speech, and free elections, an explicit commitment to the pursuit of truth is imperative.[24] "Politicians will respect, rather than manipulate, reality only if the public cares about the truth and punishes politicians when it catches them in deliberate deception."[24]

Popper however, did not identify the open society either with democracy or with capitalism or a laissez-faire economy, but rather with a critical frame of mind on the part of the individual, in the face of communal group think of whatever kind.[25] An important aspect in Popper's thinking is the notion that the truth can be lost. Critical attitude does not mean that the truth is found. "

The debate of tolerance seems in some embodiments to come down to an ideological struggle between tolerance and power. Perhaps this implies a balance here

People with no skin in the game still denying people the right to make an honest living. Not one public servant lost their job while marxist Premiers encouraged tens of thousands of marxist or fools to march in the name of blm. Oh 40000 for a football game but only 10 at a funeral. Being a uni lecturer also sucking on the teet of Government, I doubt whether John qualifies for any rational position on the loss of freedoms. Aussies are slow to wake up. In Europe and UK they are a lot quicker. Lockdowns, masks and arresting pregnant women for posting on facebook have zero to do with science. Those fools cheering on Andrews are the same idiots who think they can change the weather. Wake up Australia!

Dear runner,

They have everything to do with the science you utter fool. That is self evident by what Victoria has managed to do. Your Trump Derangement is off the charts. Time to seek some help mate. You are being an affront to any notions of rational thought or even of basic common sense.

Time to stop.

'That is self evident by what Victoria has managed to do'

Oh thanks Steelie and Dan for allowing Vic's to have 20 people at a funeral and 10 at a wedding while you encouraged tens of thousands of marxist protestors. Science 101 from Steelie and Dan. Don't forget you Vic's to bow down in gratitude to such generosity.

For the record, sea ice is water, in a solid state. When it melts, it doesn't add a nanometre to the sea-level, if anything, given the strange nature of water as its temperature approaches freezing, melting ice would actually shrink very slightly in its volume.

CM,

Yes, "an explicit commitment to the pursuit of truth is imperative." And yes, " .... Critical attitude does not mean that the truth is found. " After all, before microscopes, no amount of 'critical attitude' and search for the truth, would have found it, (to the extent that it can ever be found 100 %): everybody would still be arguing about miasma, and aether, and bad air, evil spells, devils, etc.

And " .... a critical frame of mind on the part of the individual, in the face of communal group think of whatever kind." Yes ! A thousand times, yes ! Popper was a genius.

Joe

My dear my wee poor boy. Steel Rednuts. A simple graph is what you thinkmakes you an expert, The global climate has so many dimensions and when you add biology, oceans, active geology, solar weather, you thin one chart is enough to make climate realists like me to just roll over and beg chanting mea culpa?

I almost sort of missed you, but you really are a naïve, angry mosquito in reality. Whatever, try to be happy and enjoy you climate change cultism and all the tree hugging anger driven pseudo science.

If it makes you happy, fine.. JUST DON'T EXPECT THE REST OF US INCLUDING THE BILLIONS OF POOR AROUND THE WORLD FOR YOU WINDMILLS AND SOLAR FARMS. Have you every read Don Quixote?.. of course not.

You probably didn't go to school, instead expressed and explored yourself with home schooling.

In answer to Loudmouth2-

Interesting comments you have made in regards to Truth and especially Critical Thought. But I think you missed the point on Power verses Truth- Truth is irrelevant without Power in a sense. Power is necessary for survival.

Culture offers protection against complexity and instability. I'm not sure why you want the British Australian population that overwhelmingly created the Australian Built Environment. I suspect that it's because you have a vested interest in disenfranchising British Australians.

Socrates in The Republic argues against "Might is Right" ie. Power vs Truth in the Athenian context. There are subtleties here... not everyone is capable or willing to understand this..

Steele Redux is trying to redefine TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) so that he can't be labelled as having TDS. Good try maybe next time. This is an expected Communist tactic.

Dear Alison Jane,

Please don't think for a moment that I am angry, I'm really not.

My replies to you are quite clinical. I take what you have put up and craft a response reflecting the same language and tone. I have done this for a while now. There is nothing personal about it so I hope you aren't taking offence.

Ney problems, when you reach 60, there are more important tings in dee old life!. Hippo weekend ta ya!

According to Law Freedom includes being stupid !