It is great that we live in a country where individuals can get up and state

"Such poor public policy should not be without consequences'

In the meantime, the overwhelming Australian majority say well done to Australian governments for their responses to the coronavirus

There certainly was a massive overreaction and the people responsible - politicians and public servants - should pay with their jobs. They won't pay, of course, because pathetic Australians think they should be grateful i.e the Australians who have NOT PAID WITH THEIR JOBS AND BUSINESSES, as thousands have, thanks to Big Bucks Morrison and his incompetent advisors, who will suffer no losses and go on to ruin other people's lives in the future.

A mere 100 deaths; and it could have been fewer, even none, if gutless Morrison had taken advantage of our island situation and closed the border to everyone on hearing the first warning. Instead, he faffed around and wrecked lives and the economy. And still he and his fellow idiots won't stop this stupid lockdown and restrictions on gatherings NOW.

And these so-called doctors, none with experience in the relevant discipline, would be plying their trades in the way they were meant to - in actual practice - if they were any good at all. But, they were no good at it, so they slid into the well-paid, no accountability, public bureaucracy. Of the author's description of these people, I would take only the word 'ignorant'. There is no polite description for the PM and other politicians involved

For further reading on the matter, see 'A response bordering on incompetence', by Salvatore Babones in Quadrant Online, 14th. June.

Thank goodness this opinion has finally been voiced.
However I was told by someone who should know that Morrison believed he had no choice. He was told by the Public Health Experts back in the beginning that the best forecast of the minimum number of COVID-19 cases in Australia was 3,000,000. Then when the Italian Health System was overwhelmed everyone was spooked.

A major problem is that risk avoidance is a character trait commonly found in the medical profession; we as clients like that. However of all the people in the medical profession the most fearful in the spectrum of risk avoidance are the public service administrators.

David,

Isn't it wonderful what you can learn - some of us - from hindsight ? It can be a great teacher. But even so, many people don't actually learn the most accurate lessons from the past. In fact, some people learn nothing at all.

Oh hello Ttbn, didn't see you there,

Yes, you're right, a hundred deaths is pretty shocking. So what do you reckon about 114,000 ? Are you suggesting that somehow, Trumpf got his information quite a while after Morrison did ? Or is it that he simply dithered, being only a fair-weather leader with absolutely no ability or inclination to lead in the tough times ?

Yes, you're right, a hundred deaths is shocking. So is the current seven hundred per day, and five thousand in the past week - achievements which can be laid at the door of Pussy Man.

Who seems to have had a small stroke. Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke, or a bigger turd.

Joe

The proof of this argument will be whether there is a surge in cases because of all these stupid protests. My bet is that there won't be but we will only have a few days more to see whether I am right or not.
David

David. As a doctor, you'd make a good vet! And your best skill? Euthanasia? So easy when the patient can't give or deny consent!

I get that you see older folk, mum and dad, grandpa and grandma, with the exception of right-wing pollies, having a use-by date. And like old dogs, need to be put down for the sake of convenience and cost?

After all the average age of those killed by the virus, would seem to be around 80? And like most of your contemporaries, you put no value on the wisdom of age and experience!

That you don't, I believe, process (demonstrable) normal human empathy and therefore specialized in veterinary practice.

I'm glad you're out of politics and are reduced to commenting here to sway or mould public opinion?

Yes, a few birds of a feather will listen and even believe your opinion. But let's understand that is all it is, opinion, that your medical knowledge and training is strictly, non-human.

Suggest you moo-ve on and leave public health as applicable to humans to those who specialize in it. Although you might win a few brownie points for such wonderful, neigh, neigh, 20-20 hindsight!

We'd be better served if your wisdom and intellect were directed at a maximised recovery, rather than this spilled milk shite stirring?

Albeit, you've stirred a few folks who always complain the loudest about stuff they know SFA about? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Woof, woof?
Alan B.

David,

The BLM protests are tending to occur in the big cities. If there is a surge in Covid-19 cases in the big cities, you may be onto something. But I suspect that the surges will come in the next week or two in the more rural areas, in the south, mid-west and west - i.e. amongst Trumpf's main supporters. Then a week or two later, a surge in deaths in those areas. And a panic amongst governors to re-impose restrictions. Oh, Mr Hart, what a mess !

Still, if they all just drank a teaspoonful of bleach or disinfectant every day, or shine a bright light up their arses, they'll be okay. Anyway, it's all a fraud, isn't it ? And no worse than the flu. Never mind, it will all be over by Easter.

Joe

It's a mistake to see the covid-19 response as something entirely unusual.
Imposing restrictions on everyone for fear of the occasional mishap is the normal way of Australian governments. Has been for some time. Even merely hypothesized threats are treated this way.
I'd suggest this has been the way since the Port Arthur shootings. The 'never again' response set the precedent.
The difference with this virus folly is the number of people feeling the impact at one time.
Mostly the 'for our own good' imposts are only felt by a handfull at any time. For example the cost and constraints of hyper safety building codes are only immediately felt when building. Another might be young people trying to get a drivers licence. The burden's only on those few at the time.
Ultimately the full cost's on everyone but fear of the odd thing obscures that.

Agree with David about the naivety of blind observance of these health "experts".
The air of prestige and infallibility held around this profession's dangerously misplaced. They're not better than everyone else. They're not wiser and all knowing and they're certainly not more likely to admit or even realize when they've made a mistake.
The average engineer is just as highly educated and in a field far more wide ranging. He commonly has many lives dependent on his insight but he's not held in anywhere near the high regard the medical professional is. It's quite peculiar.

Its been over 2 months now since I suggested on these pages that the lockdowns were a massive over-reaction to the virus and that we'd be paying for it for two or three generations. Even Morrison is now suggesting that, economically speaking, it'll be years before we get anywhere near where we were pre-lockdown.

But even back then I was pointing out that it was invalid to blame politicians for the initial over-reaction. They were given false information by people who fancied themselves as experts and who scared the governments and public into submitting to their wishes. If we knew then what we know now, the lockdowns wouldn't have occurred or at least would have looked very different.

Remember that the initial aims were to 'flatten the curve' so as to avoid runs on hospitals like those that occurred in Lombardy. But that ought to have lasted two weeks only and that was the initial claim. But then they got so enamoured of these new powers to compel obedience that they just couldn't stop. Even now they only reluctantly surrender their authority to decide who can and can't visit your house.

So the initial reactions were, if not justified, at least understandable given the paucity of information and that that information was usually wrong. But by late March that excuse now longer applied and so all the mayhem that has ensued since then, (which is most of the economic disaster) is squarely on the backs of the various governments around the nation.

I can't help but think that the shellacking Morrison got over the bush-fires made him gun-shy and caused him to show an abundance of caution. Had he not conceded to the 'experts' and the press, every death would have been slated home to him. Yeah, he's up in the polls...coupla million jobs lost is completely worth it.

Did the lockdowns save lives? Probably. Could they have been saved via other, less totalitarian means. Almost certainly.

Oh I see loudmouth is here again burbling on about the deaths in the US and how its all Trump's fault, or something.

But I've learned from experience that all you have to do is mention New York and LM runs a mile.

So LM, let's talk about New York....oh bye.

David,

Fact checking is becoming even more necessary in this world we live in. Those who rely on media reports, and what you have heard, are often misled.

May be of interest, is the practice of shutting down intensive animal enterprises to reduce disease burdens in the flock. Government regulation even mandate such responses with industry support.

Diseases such as Newcastle Disease have government enforced destruction of millions of livestock and quarantine of farms for 2 plus years in Australia.

Likewise risk management is an integral part of medicine.
Many of us less fortunate than yourself have had to to recognize the prevalence of side effects and risks of of treatments such as surgery and drug treatments. With advice of the doctors about risks, we can ignore a doctors advice. I am in a the minority with serious side effects from treatment but I am grateful for the disease control achieved and the doctors advice to proceed with my treatment.

With highly infectious diseases like SARs 2 early action and an abundance of caution is the only sensible reaction in the face of the limited knowledge, about the disease or, population compliance.

Past experience shows people and countries can recover and prosper after economic shocks much worse than the rules imposed on Australians.

VK3AUU,

I don't think there will be a second wave either. Just among demonstrators and rioters, perhaps.

I was interested to hear Tom Switzer saying that if there was a second wave there would be no more lock downs or economy trashing because we couldn't afford them. And, perhaps, because Morrison and his reckless advisers have seen how stupid they have been (but still won't admit it).

Mhaze,

New York ? Which now has fewer new cases than some of the hick states ?

Of course, it had the most cases in the early months of this virus - so did Sydney in Australia, Auckland in NZ, London in the UK and Paris in Fence. Biggest centres, most cosmopolitan, most flights into and out of. No mystery.

Also NY state had a Democrat governor, and like other states in the US with Democrat governors, they had most trouble getting any co-operation from the federal government agencies.

So which foot is the shoe on these days ? Where will the second wave strike hardest ?

Still, all everybody might need is a bottle of Lysol and a strong flash-light.

Yes, believe it or not, I'm told that there has been an upsurge in cases in the US of poisoning by detergent and bleach. And maybe sunburn around the nether regions, I don't know, but I can't believe people would be that stupid. Then again, it's Americans ........

Joe

Ahhh LM, finally shamed you into it.

Let's take a look at your excuses...

"Of course, it had the most cases in the early months of this virus - ....Biggest centres, most cosmopolitan, most flights into and out of. No mystery."

Well, in fact New York is only the 6th most densely populated city in the US and only slightly more so than LA and Miami. Yet looking at these other states, Florida and Texas, with higher populations than NY have less than 10% of NY's deaths.

"Also NY state had a Democrat governor, and like other states in the US with Democrat governors, they had most trouble getting any co-operation from the federal government agencies."

California is also a Democrat state, indeed THE Democrat state. With double the population they've had 1/6th the number of deaths. Did the Feds give them extra help? Washington State, also Democrat, has nearly half the population of NY by 5% of the deaths.

Perhaps you'll need to find another excuse LM.

Or you could just address the facts, but then you'd have to change your opinion and stop blaming Trump....so nah!

The facts are that Cuomo/de Blasio screwed up enormously. They adopted policies as regards nursing homes that were the complete opposite of Florida and which resulted in 10000 extra deaths. They adopted policies as regards transport that were completely insane (and eventually changed) that resulted in another 5000+ deaths.

The fact is that, take NY out of the equation and the US did fantastically well. If the disaster in NY is down to Trump, why isn't the successes elsewhere down to Trump? Oh I forgot....TDS.

David_Leyonhjelm's no expert on anything from failing to stay in office to following the Trump Method of how to BOOST Coronavirus.

WIKIPEDIA reveals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Leyonhjelm#2019

"On 7 January 2019, Leyonhjelm announced that he intended to quit federal politics to contest the 2019 New South Wales state election on 23 March 2019.[66] He resigned from the Australian Senate on 1 March 2019.[67] He was the second Senator since the 2016 election to resign from Federal Parliament to contest a state election, following Nick Xenophon's unsuccessful run at the 2018 South Australian state election.

Leyonhjelm's bid to win a place in the NSW Legislative Council was unsuccessful.[4][68]"

"2019

In November, Senator Hanson-Young was awarded $120,000 in damages after winning a defamation case in the Federal Court against Leyonhjelm over interviews he gave following his "stop shagging men" comment in Parliament. The judge ruled that Leyonhjelm had acted with malice and intended to publicly shame Hanson-Young.[69]

2020

Leyonhjelm is appealing against the defamation decision, partly on the ground of the implied constitutional freedom of political communication.[70]"

More see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Leyonhjelm

For choice.

Boris Johnson probably agreed with David, and all the other Monday morning experts, posting here, when covid-19 hit the UK?

Bet he doesn't[ now? And probably has a higher opinion of medical doctors as well?

And thanks for bringing some real perspective to this discussion!

Otherwise, as always, the vocal minority of I'm alright jacks, would have dominated this debate.

I think the government was placed in an invidious position and dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.

And are now critiqued for possibly the first time, listening to the experts and the science.

And that is scaring the BJ's outta the vocal minority, least it's a practice they continue? Imagine that!
Alan B.

>In the meantime, the overwhelming Australian majority say well done to Australian governments for their responses to the coronavirus

I agree, it's also why we're in the mess, the foolish electing the incompetent.

Many people I know visit McDoanalds, luckily that unpleasant experience is not forced on me. Not being treated as an adult by the rest of my fellow citizens? that's as repugnant. As the finance minister of Finland noted, after 12 months, Finland will have as many dead as Sweden, and yet Finland's economy will have been devastated. This has been treated like a sprint, with breathless announcements that this country has more dead then that country and no understanding that next year will necessarily be different, the ultimate stupidity is in NZ and excellent example of "how to" was Japan..

I agree completely with David's points.

thanks for persisting with the truth mHaze. Joe is suffering severely with TDS. Just goes to show you what hatred can do. Seemed so sensible on so many fronts but when it comes to Covid throws all rationale out the window.

Giday runner

Just over 115,000 Americans have died due to Trump's mismanagement that has Boosted Coronavirus.

Over 50,000 that Trump killed are woman - with 1,000s of those women being of childbearing age.

Hence Trump has killed 1,000s of babies because they can never be born.

Making TRUMP AMERICA'S GREATEST ABORTIONIST!

What do you say to that?

plantagenet

you obviously failed maths miserably let alone being taught any honesty.

Chris Lewis,

I have great respect for your views however I think this comment is not well considered;
' the overwhelming Australian majority say well done to Australian governments for their responses to the coronavirus',
While currently accurate, in view of newly revealed and unfolding analysis, it might change in a couple of months to;
'the majority of Australians might well say, the viral governments overwhelming "conronavirus" reaction was an utterly disastrous response.'

Cheers Keith Kennelly

Queensland's Doctor Jeanette Young's experience, before becoming a health bureaucrat, was in ER doctoring.

Yep that's what we needed to guide our response to an infectious viral pandemic. Someone who's only practical experience in health was as an emergency doctor.

The American Dr Anthony Fauci was an Immunologist with experience in infectious diseases, and even he looks to have got a great deal wrong.

Dr Jeanette Young on two occasions contradicted herself. First on the reason for the lockdown, flattening the curve to prevent the overwhelming of our health system. Now apparently wanting to eliminate the virus entirely.
Secondly, initially that the schools and students wouldn't be in peril, then advising they close and putting in place all sorts of regulations and protocols to make them safe. when reopened..

Yep overreaction and now stupidly going on for far too long.
Th ecurve was flattened over a month ago. I wrote and was published in the CM then, 'Shutdown the Lockdown.' The CM editorial concurred

According to this article, the problem with government is just its poor performance because it receives poor advice that causes it to make extreme decrees even while more moderate decrees would suffice. This fails to address the real problem.

Well sorry, I actually think that the Australian government's performance in this particular crisis, given the numerous unknowns that we faced, while less than perfect, is quite remarkable.

I wonder why the author beats around the bush: the problem is government's existence, not its performance!

The actual horror is that some group of people (for this after all is what government is, with no other supernatural binding), is able to command unrelated others by arbitrary decrees, under threat of violence, how they should live. They can for example threaten, "If you visit your grandmother; or if you worship God, fulfilling your duty to Him in ways we do not approve, then we will throw you in jail, and should you try to resist, we shall kill you" - "we are more important than your grandmother, we are more important even than God".

We did not freely chose to live with the virus, but also we (at least some of us) never freely chose to live with that gang. Both were forced on us (as a result of our sins, to be exact), but while the virus is an "act of God", that government-gang is an act of man. Which of them should we fear more?

"So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me. David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.”" [2 Samuel 24:13-14]

Dear mhaze,

Oh you really are so utterly full of it with such a monotonous regularity it truly does beggar belief.

I checked you very first statement;

“Well, in fact New York is only the 6th most densely populated city in the US and only slightly more so than LA and Miami. Yet looking at these other states, Florida and Texas, with higher populations than NY have less than 10% of NY's deaths.”

And as usual found it to be complete bollocks.

Of the ten most densely populated areas in the US, 6 of which are over 10,000 people per square kilometre, 9 are in New York City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density

Why on earth would anyone take a single thing you have put as likely to have any basis in fact?

Dear Alan B,

Your first post was quite enjoyable, thank you.

SR,

We were talking about the relative merits of NY state versus the other states. Most of the places that your list shows are not in NY state but are instead in New Jersey.

Therefore they don't fall under the jurisdiction of NY state.

Therefore they fall outside of the discussion as regards the failures of NY state.

Therefore I accept your apology.

But typical SR here. Select a tangential issue, and try to make the discussion about that. Never discuss the substance because....well because he's SR.

The fact remains that the only parts of the US where WuFlu policy failed were Democrat states. And if people like yourself want to blame those on Trump then failing to also credit him for those places where policy didn't fail is a tad hypocritical although a further manifestation of TDS.

Dear mhaze,

What rubbish mate.

This was your claim;

“Well, in fact New York is only the 6th most densely populated city in the US and only slightly more so than LA and Miami.”

These are cities not states.

You got found out yet after telling Foxy to own her mistakes and apologise you can't do it yourself.

Really pathetic effort yet again.

Oh dear, SR, I'm increasingly concerned about your ability to follow even the simplest of threads. We were talking about NY state and the way its leaders, Cuomo and de Blasio, completely screwed the WuFlu response.

And here you are off on some idiotic tangent talking about locations out the state and not governed by either of those people.

I'm doing you the courtesy of assuming that this isn't all too hard for you and that you've now realised you made a rookie error but haven't got the wherewithal to own up. OTOH perhaps you really are that thick.

I was getting used to the new SR who just left a thread when he knew he'd been found out. A shame you changed the policy here.

I wish you people would stop descending to personal insults and carried on like gentlemen.
David