david f,

<<I support Australian law which gives a woman the right to have a legal and safe abortion which kills the human being inside her. The law also penalizes those who would harass her. I think those are good laws. >>

I am not so naive as to obey the laws of Australia if they conflict with the laws of God. This is how 'Peter and the apostles replied [to the Jewish leaders], “We must obey God rather than any human authority"' (Acts 5:29).

The law by which God judges killing of human beings is, 'You shall not murder'. Murdering an infant human being in the womb is what takes place in abortion.

Although I was born after World War 2 and my father fought in the war, I'm old enough to know of the horrors of what happens when a nation passes laws that violate God's laws, Germany being one example:

'At their annual party rally held in Nuremberg in September 1935, the Nazi leaders announced a set of three new laws to further regulate and exclude Jews from German Society. These laws now known as the Nuremberg laws served also as the legality for the arrests and violence against Jews that would come to follow', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_pre-war_Nazi_Germany

We now know that those ungodly laws led to genocide of Jews and other minorities in Germany.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

You asked me to watch certain videos then give you feedback.
I watched them, certainly not a pleasant experience.

I wouldn't do what is shown in the videos even to a chocolate bunny, I was too timid and couldn't do so as a child, I am even a bit upset at the insensitivity of all those uncles and aunts that kept giving me animal-formed chocolates - or was it their intention to try to toughen me up?
Biology is a gory thing, which is probably why I never studied medicine.

What I find irrational is, how come so many find abortions gruesome but at the same time find the meat on their plate appealing: the animals they eat were typically more developed than a foetus - physically, emotionally and intellectually. Many would faint if they saw how their food was killed, but not when they see their various organs on their plate or barbecue; and yes, there are also those who prefer their meat minced so the horror is not that vivid.

So much for the "yuck factor" - the videos use it very effectively and so does PETA (http://www.peta.org.au/news/all-beings-bleed-the-same-new-peta-ads-challenge-speciesism/).

Now please remember: this does not make abortions right nor wrong: the issue at hand is those specific videos, rather than abortion itself. The question is, are we to base our decisions in life on emotions? Almost everyone is guilty of it, myself included, but is this the correct way to go? I think not, neither does the bible:

"And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring" [Numbers 15:39]

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Another criticism I have about the videos (and remember again, this is not in support of abortion, only in criticism of the videos), is the listing of the medical complications for the mother:

While the information is useful, it is one-sided: the moment a foreign organism enters our body, we are in trouble. A fertilised egg is a foreign organism and it produces medical risks either way, whether removed or allowed to remain. Ectopic pregnancy for example can happen and is life-threatening with or without medical abortion. Often the woman does not know about it until it is late. The video suggests that because of the abortion-pill the woman fails to have an ultrasound, but how likely would she to have it otherwise?

To be objective, the videos would need to list the ADDITIONAL medical risks of aborting, if any, as opposed to the risks of allowing the embryo to grow and be birthed. If the woman's physical health is the objective (as opposed to spiritual health, which was not discussed in these videos), then the only [physically] healthy way is to never allow a sperm nearby, with abortion probably taking the second place and birth the third and last.

Sorry, the considerations around abortion are serious and extremely complex, we touched their tip-of-the-iceberg earlier in this thread and in most likelihood we will never be able to exhaust them. What we should avoid though, is to allow emotional/instinctual/hormonal/cultural considerations to control the discussion.

Yuyutsu,

<<What I find irrational is, how come so many find abortions gruesome but at the same time find the meat on their plate appealing: the animals they eat were typically more developed than a foetus - physically, emotionally and intellectually.>>

I find it irrational that you don't distinguish between a human being and an animal to see and understand the value of human beings is superior to that of animals.

However, I understand that's coming from your Hindu worldview.

To Yuyutsu

Thank you for watching the videos. I'm sorry they are hard, however that's the most information I've seen about actual abortions. When it comes to abortions, people are in the dark about what actually happens. I especially think the potential health risks and side affects that are part of abortion is worth while knowledge. While I agree that this creates an emotional response of disgust while watching the videos, I'm glad that the explanations showed a simple animation to visualize what is being described. The knowledge is worth while towards an industry that promises that this is safe and not harmful to the mother.

As for the spiritual health of the mother. I get one position of not having sex being considered more healthy spiritually. That's for trying to remain pure and undefiled. I don't know if that is your reasoning or if it is because you don't agree with people having children to begin with (or different reasons entirely). I don't completely agree with the reasoning for purity though regarding sex, because I support married couples increasing their intimacy and their relationship through making love. (Any other relationship before marriage having sex I agree is not a good practice).

That said, understanding and not agreeing completely with the position is one thing. I don't understand why you think it's more spiritually healthy to have an abortion then it is to give birth. Considering what is actually happening in an abortion, how can that be considered healthy in either a physical or a spiritual sense? Physically it can damage the structures in a woman's body that would harm the chances of having a good pregnancy later in her life. Spiritually? I have no idea where you come from on that aspect regarding health.

Again though thank you for watching the videos.

To David f.

Please watch the videos. Since you're take on abortion is full support for several rationalizations then I'd like you're feedback on the information. Perhaps you are educated on what happens in an abortion or the types of abortions out there, that you can refute the information as it's presented in the videos from a pro-life organization. If you have feedback this is your opportunity to better present your case for abortion in light of an educating set of videos that talk about what occurs in the different types of abortions.

The more information we have about abortions, and better educated we are the more likely we can have worthwhile and accurate discussions about the matter. I'm disappointed in how much discussion about abortion has been to hide behind the term fetus, but otherwise have little to no knowledge of the abortion process. To say it's a woman's body and her choice, but not to know the potential risks involved to a woman's health. Much of the topic of abortions goes into talking about everything around an abortion but little to no talk about the abortion itself. Honestly I'm disappointed in all the pro-abortion/pro-choice positions in this thread. In order to actually get educated on abortion a person has to find a pro-life organization. Because they will actually talk about the matter instead of shuffling it under the rug and hope no one notices.

As for a democratic process for changing the laws and the views regarding abortion. That is what I'm doing here. Democracy is about multiple votes not just my own. Therefore a better understanding of the matter given to the public is a democratic method because of how that information will influence the votes and the views concerning abortion.