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The Forum > Article Comments > Mistaken atheism, mistaken theism > Comments

Mistaken atheism, mistaken theism : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 28/3/2019

God is not an object in the universe and thus cannot be investigated or described in the same language that we use for other objects.

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Yuyutsu, you also said:

<<Scripture is so important, but due to past contaminations of our mind, chances are close to zero that we could simply read the text and understand its depth of truth correctly. We also need a living guide, a teacher who has already leapt further than us towards God, so their certainty is more solid and their intellect purer than ours.>>

What you're saying sound like the idea of having a mentor, and the idea of mentorship in general. Which I think is a great idea. Not just for faith but for life in general. Whether it's life skills, job skills, or actions and understanding in faith, if a person can have a good mentor to guide them, that is a good resource.

However, the other aspect you spoke on is about reading scripture and understanding it fully. You don't have to understand it fully to be better from it. It's also worth saying that if you don't understand it fully, but apply what you do understand, then that is good enough. By applying it you can see the by the results and come to a better understanding. With a mentor it will be easier, but even without one, a person can take what they do understand and apply it to their lives, or at least keep it in their understanding for future. Therefore reading the bible and gaining an understanding from it is good for every Christian to do.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Wednesday, 3 April 2019 2:28:02 AM
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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«if you don't understand it fully, but apply what you do understand, then that is good enough.»

Would you settle for just "good enough"? My standard is to become Christ-like: one ought to never stop short of that.

There are too many examples of people of weak and/or corrupt minds who read scriptures, including Christian scriptures and THOUGHT they understood it, resulting in massacres, resulting in terrible cults, resulting in torture, resulting in breaking of families, etc.
I am not saying that your mind is corrupt to that extent, but the human mind in general is weak and corrupt to one degree or another.

People use the bible to justify views of the political Left and the political Right alike and all that is in between. People speculate on the question "what would Jesus do in this case?", somehow tending to conclude that "Jesus would do just as I did", such is the human mind, so who is correct?

This is why in order to grow beyond "good enough", a spiritual mentor is indispensable.

«if you have something that actually is a solid foundation and doesn't change or break when life tests you, then that should be counted as a strength in both your faith and your views of the world.»

Yes, but there is no such THING which is absolutely solid.
Even the rock on which Jesus told Peter, "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", has cracked due to the effects of time and earthquakes. I have seen this with mine own eyes, you can go to the Sea of Galilee and see it with yours. In Hinduism too, even the ideal and beautiful divinely-built city of Dwaraka, created by Krishna himself, has sunk back into the ocean.

The only possible foundation which is ever solid, is God, but to have God as foundation we must in fact KNOW God: merely having information ABOUT Him is insufficient, information does not amount to knowledge.

[continued...]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 3 April 2019 12:46:41 PM
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[...continued]

So what to do? The spiritual journey consists of both leaps of faith and periods of integration in between, during which one uses the level of knowledge they gained by their own experience to accrue virtues in preparation for the next leap. One can and should rely on the degree of foundation they already gained, but there comes the time to jump into the unknown in order to gain deeper and even more solid foundations.

And to avoid falling into pits at those leaps, a spiritual mentor is indispensable.

«God does act in our lives»

For all practical purposes He does, as you already experienced this yourself, at least to some degree. Theologically it would be more accurate to say that your life is affected by God because you allowed Him in, nevertheless let us be practical here, it comes to the same.

Now wouldn't you like this to be your constant, non-sporadic experience? Wouldn't you like to be infused with the full intensity of God's love, grace, power and glory at each and every moment?
This takes further leaps of faith.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 3 April 2019 12:46:44 PM
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To Yuyutsu. You said:

<< Would you settle for just "good enough"? My standard is to become Christ-like: one ought to never stop short of that.>>

<<For all practical purposes He does, as you already experienced this yourself, at least to some degree. Theologically it would be more accurate to say that your life is affected by God because you allowed Him in, nevertheless let us be practical here, it comes to the same.>>

Theologically there is a huge difference from what you believe and your approach, compared to what the bible teaches in the New Testament. God being in you is not something you do. It's something God does, something He chooses. Though we have expectations from us (love, mercy, kindness, turn from our sins) our success isn't something for us to brag about, but something God makes us successful in. Our choosing God can be counted as our own choice, but our staying with Him is said to be an act of God, otherwise it is impossible. There is more to the teaching that say that God chose us, that He hold on to us, and that through the Holy Spirit, He teaches us, comforts us, and corrects us. Sanctifies us, and strengthens us against our sins.

(Continued)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 4 April 2019 1:37:18 AM
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(Continued)

We have responsibilities as well but through it all the steady point is that God is in control, not us. So with the matter of settling for "Good Enough," yes I would settle for what is within my means to do, and what is the practicality of my understanding, that "settling" is still a lot of work. The bible has several parts that are easy to understand but difficult to live up to. If a person applies what they understand, regardless if that person has a lot of understanding or is a new Christian still learning, then the standard of "good enough" is indeed good enough. We are not saved by being perfect and earning our strips, but instead Jesus came to save us while we are still sinners, and haven't earned it. Having faith means trusting God.

The theology you hold try to be Christ like is not bad by the efforts and devotion to try to do it. But you miss the mark in thinking this is something you can accomplish on your own, instead of being an act of redeeming and cleansing through having the Holy Spirit in us. (Whether we have the Holy Spirit is also outside of our control, but is again in God's hands. The most we can do is strive to be obedient, and strive to follow God). If you do everything that you know how to do, and apply all that you understand, then yes that is good enough.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 4 April 2019 1:38:52 AM
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To Yuyutsu. You've also said:

<<Yes, but there is no such THING which is absolutely solid.>>

Read Mathew 7:24-27. In it Jesus ends His sermon (commonly recognized as "the sermon on the mount") with these words:

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

One last thought on being "good enough." Read 1 Corinthians 12. (You can google it and read it online it's not long). In it Paul addresses that people have different spiritual gifts, not everyone is the same. In the same way that we are all called to follow Jesus, not everyone is as good at teaching as another is, or one person has been given a gift of healing or miracles, others a gift of speaking through the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues) and interpreting what's being said.

These are big things to be given whenever God would give them to us, but they are not in our control to have them. Even just teaching, singing, or knowing the needs another has and trying to help them; are skills that some are better at then others. In the chapter I'm referencing Paul ends by saying that we should all strive for these gifts of the Holy Spirit. But throughout the chapter, the message is clear that we aren't all the same and shouldn't try to be someone else who holds one strength that we don't have (regardless if we ever can have it later or not).
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 4 April 2019 2:52:56 AM
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