(Continued)

<<If the faithful don't see science as a threat, when can we see cessation of their resort to the perversion that is creation "science" as a legitimate alternative to the real thing? Their authority has been found wanting at every turn in their tortuous path.>>

I don't see it as a threat. I can't speak for anyone else or speak for their endeavors in life. The problem your speaking about is cultures within scientific communities. From the past to the present there are people who hold a view of the world (or of what they are studying) and look to scientific investigation to confirm their ideals already made. Instead of just collect the data and see what they see. Too much hypothesis and explanation combined with a lack of data. This is not a creationist science issue. It's an issue in every field of scientific investigation.

Again though, science is not a threat to me. So far it hasn't proven anything I see to harm my faith. Instead several in-depth studies of any topic seem to do the opposite for several scientists, fill them with a sense of awe for how the world works and less of a sense that this is a chance occurrence. For me the study of anatomy has only strengthened my sense of God's work in the world.

.....to clear up one other thing. Yuyutsu isn't a Christian. His world view isn't the same as a monotheistic God that many other religions have. I'm not as familiar with Hindu perspectives, but I am learning what Yuyutsu's perspective of Hinduism is. ... Just in case there was confusion of that part of the conversation.

Not Now soon,
I can assure you that I am not losing my faith. Here I am up bright and early looking forward to a beautiful sung Eucharist at the Cathedral. Your judgment that I am losing my faith reveals a certain narrow understanding of what faith amounts to. For me, it does not rely on evidence of supernatural existence. I read widely in theology and have done so for many years.

My hope for you is that you escape the evangelical bubble and come to a more mature understanding that will increase your "knowledge and love of God".

My hope for Pogi is that he will come to understand that we Christians are not all alike, that his materialist view of the universe is accurate but that that view has a tendency to mask fundamental issues around what it means to be human.

Dear Pogi,

«How would you identify the thing you and 1.5 bn other humans worship then?»

A representation of God.

But it is not just one thing that 1.5 billion people worship (assuming the number is correct): there are many deities that are being worshipped around the world as well as other representations of God which are not deities.

«Without a monarch in paradise, only the realm of eternal discomfort remains»

I urge you to think again: you should be able to come up with many possible alternatives yourself.

«What a smug declaration of "special pleading"!»

A very common pleading: most people can benefit from worshipping a deity of their choice. Most people have no time or inclination for deep theological study, but they still can progress spiritually by devoting a little time for prayer or other forms of worship, even if it is just once or twice a day.

«Only a chosen few are privy to this lofty station»

The books are open and nowadays even freely available on the internet.
Teachers are available too to explain the books.
One just needs to want it enough, but alas, people usually have other priorities.

"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness."
[Isaiah 55:1-2]

«[is there a realm of immaterial or un-material science?]»

Not a realm, but disciplines, material science itself being a discipline rather than a realm.

«Nothing in [the realm of] material science is concerned at all with matters metaphysical... The Principal of Reciprocity governs their realm of morality.»

Indeed, material science cannot answer the metaphysical question of WHY: Suppose your definition of morality is complete, yet WHY should one be moral, WHY should one observe the Principal of Reciprocity? Material science is silent about this.

Yuyutsu, writes: "Indeed, material science cannot answer the metaphysical question of WHY."

This is exactly what I was telling you when I wrote: <<Nothing in [the realm of] material science is concerned at all with matters metaphysical.>> Do you suffer some kind of dyslexic affliction? Science declares its recognition that the remit allocated to it by the reason and logic that governs the REAL world that humans inhabit. Matters metaphysical have never been, nor will they ever be, a concern of science. Charging science with fault or with incompleteness of some kind is a dishonest device of the faithful to inflate their own authority by devious means. It is a commonly accepted and unequivocal fault of faith that deviousness in expanding its figurehead's aims and credibility is made virtue by the purpose that drives it. I have never encountered anywhere else how hubris is turned to such successful use.

You write further: "Suppose your definition of morality is complete, yet WHY should one be moral, WHY should one observe the Principal of Reciprocity? Material science is silent about this."

I trust even you might understand now precisely why science is silent...

As to why one should observe...Because it is in our interest as an animal living in a complex group that cooperation, fellowship and a sense of fairness/justice are more likely to be reciprocated than not, that our own actions prompt most intelligent humans to react in a similar manner. The safety, health and prosperity of societal groups were found by evolution to be enhanced by a largely benign reciprocity involving cooperation, fellowship and fairness/justice. Contrary to the view held by the faithful, humans are intelligent enough to recognise this and live their lives accordingly. Intelligence alone is sufficient to recognise this. Threats to the well-being of individuals who are afflicted with faith that intelligence is insufficient is to deny humankind some of its innate worth and this notion caters to a legitimation of the faithfuls' sense of inadequacy and decrepitude. Such groveling subservience is inimical to human dignity and integrity. The Stockholm Syndrome is alive and thriving in religion.

To Peter.

I'm glad to hear you're faith is doing well and is strong. You said:

<<My hope for you is that you escape the evangelical bubble and come to a more mature understanding that will increase your "knowledge and love of God".>>

Regardless of your thoughts of evangelicalism or if I have a narrow view of faith, thank you for hoping that I will increase in knowing the knowledge and love of God. I hope for that too. I hope the same for you also. :)

OLO Mistaken atheism, mistaken theism : Comments 01042019 2

Not_Now.Soon, Sunday, 31 March 2019 2

You write: "I don't see it as a threat. I can't speak for anyone else or speak for their endeavors in life. The problem your speaking about is cultures within scientific communities [the dichotomy of legitimate science and creation "science".

No, it is not cultural. Creation "science" is not part of the scientific community, it is, and has been proven to be, a concoction of lies, misrepresentation and deceit. It's stated goal is to pervert legitimate science...a much easier task than conducting original research and seeing that research published in reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals. In trying to foist creationism onto legitimate science you manage to convey your own recognition of it as illegitimate.

You write: " This is not a creationist science issue. It's an issue in every field of scientific investigation."

Science itself declares you to be both wrong and a perpetrator of deceit.

Sellick writes: "My hope for Pogi is that he will come to understand that we Christians are not all alike,"

Legitimacy through diversity? A claim with some logic to its contrivance. It is inescapable that ALL faithful shall share a number of fundamental characteristics while vehemently claiming simultaneously that all other christian sects are illegitimate and their members are hell-bound. Mind you, this gleeful threat is nurtured by every christian toward his fellows in faith, so strangely, it is a binding characteristic of diversity and as vile a characteristic peculiar to all who are religious as any rational person could conceive of. Torture for eternity for those who think/worship differently...your brethren in faith. Such a notion would disgust the hardest of hearts. And for Sellick, it's a sacred virtue?