(continued)

Alan B,

You wrote:

<<In fact, the story of the exodus may have been a simple revolt by slaves against their Jewish Masters, and somewhere near modern-day Israel. a mountain climbing Moses and receiving the written word of God carved into tablets of stone for a population over 95% illiterate>>.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this article. It is your attempt to denigrate the Scriptures.

<<Moreover, the new testament (sic) was Authored (sic) by four writers, who both plagiarised and embellished the work written earlier by Matthew, then Mark, then Luke, then John. John being the only educated scholar, and alone reports, walking on water and feeding the multitude from a single basket of bread and fish.>>

Again, they are your conclusions, but you acknowledge you haven't read much of the Bible. As an historical Jesus' researcher, most of my investigation has found that Mark was the first Gospel written (Craig Blomberg).

<<In my limited reading of the Bible, the man Jesus never ever claimed to be the embodiment of God, but rather when asked about the miracles he allegedly performed said, It is not I who does these things, but the father in me>>.

There you go! You've owned up to your problem of not knowing the Scriptures, thus meaning you dump your anti-Bible bigotry on us.

Sells,

You oppose NNS and the use of miracles to support the foundation of Christianity - Jesus' birth and resurrection.

<<On the contrary none of the great theologians of the Church base their systematic theology on the miraculous. This includes, perhaps the greatest of them all Augustine. In the present day, Barth, von Balthasar, Williams, Millbank etc do not base their theology on the reality of the miraculous.>>

With this statement you have used at least 2 false approaches:

1. You committed the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy. See: http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority. It is this fallacy because you claimed that 'great theologians' did not base their 'systematic theology on the miraculous'. In using this fallacious reasoning, you have called upon your select group of theologians (I note that all of them are liberals, except maybe for Barth). Not one was an evangelical such as John Calvin, Thomas Oden, Louis Berkhof, Wayne Grudem, Norman Geisler, Kevin Vanhoozer, Millard Erickson, etc.

Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue, without any other supporting evidence offered, is erroneous reasoning.

What did the Gospel of John state about the sign miracles in that Gospel? 'But these [miraculous signs] are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.' (John 20:31). There is a reason for sign miracles in John's Gospel and he is crystal clear about the purpose.

2. You claim that even one of the greatest systematic theologians, St Augustine, did not base his theology on the miraculous. I have researched Augustine's view of miracles and he does not conclude as you have. I've had my article on his change of heart regarding miracles published. I have an edited version on my home page, 'St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing', available at: http://truthchallenge.one/blog/2012/04/16/st-augustine-the-man-who-dared-to-change-his-mind-about-divine-healing/.

See also, 'Augustine’s last illness: A divine healing encounter' at: http://truthchallenge.one/blog/2015/10/16/augustines-last-illness-a-divine-healing-encounter/. It was false information for you to include Augustine with liberal theologians who deny the miraculous.

runner,

I appreciate your enthusiasm for standing up for what you believe to be a Christian point of view.

However, what JBowyers wrote had nothing to do with killing millions of unborn and mass atrocities. I didn't read anything about this person taking 'the higher "rational" ground.' This person did make some provocative and unjust statements, but I don't think this is the time to sling 'mud' about this person's beliefs. The facts are that some abusers have been found in a number of denominations.

I'm ashamed of such disgraceful behaviour, but I also know I'm a sinner saved by God's grace. I also have the sinful nature I battle every day with Jesus' help.

Even though you want to talk about atheism and its dogmas, please, please do it graciously with a demonstration of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Don't you think we as Christians should demonstrate these qualities when we speak to one another on this forum?

Do you think that God believes in atheists? Take a read of Romans 1:18-20: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1%3A18-20&version=NIV.

To Sells.

It does worry me a bit if you believe that most theologians don't accept the miraculous birth of Jesus, nor the resurrection of Jesus. It would trouble me more if it was true that most theologians don't accept these things, but I have my doubts on that.

Don't take it the wrong way about my suggestion of looking for modern day miracles. I gave that suggestion due to what you wrote in your article, that the miracles in the bible were hard for you to believe. If you had some reason to believe in miracles today, then the greater miracles done by Jesus might be easier for you to come to terms with as well. It was just a suggestion to strengthen your faith.

Regarding the different theologians, I might not have the background to research and know them, but from what I've read of different Christian creeds (a pastor I had use to have several creeds read after the sermon, so that we could know. The apstoles creed was one of them. If my memory serves, most of the creeds included in them that Jesus was born a virgin, and was reserected. I think several also had something about the trinity in them as well. Based on that, I would assure you that there are probabley many theologians that believe in at least these two miracles. Even to help support the community by spelling out what it means to be Christian and believe, in light of several heretical splits that occured throughout history. Hope that as well could be an encouragement to you.

Merry Christmas. :)

Ozpen. Given you could not contradict me, just attacked me because like most folk "educated" in the Catholic tradition, Have limited personal knowledge of the bible. Given the literal thousands of interpretations revisions and extensive editing, so it fits the narrative of this or that discipline!

The oldest bible is on display in a Munich museum and would seem to be a completely different book from most modern versions.

As a scholar, read intensively about early esoteric Christianity, the first council of Nicosia, literally overseen by the pagan sun worshiper Constantine. Who appointed his own Bishops and effectively decided what books would be included. And those which wouldn't! And was only baptised on his deathbed!

Early esoteric Christians met in one another's homes, to break bread in remembrance. Built no grand edifices to glorify God nor heard confession nor pardoned one another's sins. But instead repeated the line, so as you sow so also shall ye reap.

And I stand by my statement as a quote from the bible, that Jesus when was asked about his alleged miracles? Is said to have replied, it is not I who does these things but the father in me.

The early church had no bishops at the head of marauding armies, nor put non-believers to the sword book and typically of the religious fanatic, you want to know where I read that? Suffice to say, in dozens of books by countless Authors/biblical scholars!

The confessional like marriage as a formal sacrament.

Only part of the MAN MADE mechanism of a control freak church some 700 years after the death of Christ, and Marriage as a church performed sacrament, only invented, in the last 3-500 years. All just about fiscal control of a largely illiterate and extremely gullible, highly gullible populous!

Suggested reading, is the historically accurate, Pillars of the earth. Moreover, an interesting well written, entertaining religious epic! And never ever boring.
Alan B.

Hi Alan,

I love reading your posts.

Things that are fun to believe in:

1) ghosts
2) aliens
3) magic
4) yourself

Enjoy every moment!