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The Forum > Article Comments > The miracle of Christmas > Comments

The miracle of Christmas : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 24/12/2018

The celebration of Christmas is based on a miracle; the incarnation of the Eternal Word of God as the man Jesus.

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Peter,

Why must you impose your liberal theological views on Jesus' miracles. You stated:

<<But did not Jesus do miracles? It is interesting that in the gospel according to John, miracles are denoted as signs pointing to another reality. In a world in which miracle workers abounded, the miracles of Jesus point to the work done by the Word in healing a broken world..... The miracles of Jesus are signs that the action of God in the world occurs through His presence in the world as the Word made flesh i.e. they illustrate what happens in that presence. To understand these miracles as the actual healing of individuals of medical conditions is to relegate them to events that happened in the past, but in our experience, happen no more.>>

Who said so? Peter Sellick!

The seven signs in John's Gospel were:

+ Turning Water into Wine (John 2:1–11)
+ Cleansing the Temple (John 2:12–17)
+ Healing the Nobleman’s Son (John 4:46–54)
+ Healing the Lame Man (John 5:1–15)
+ Feeding the Multitude (John 6:1–15)
+ Healing the Blind Man (John 9)
+ Raising Lazarus (John 11).

The biblical text espouses a different view to yours. John told the reason for his signs and they were not for an allegorical meaning of 'healing a broken world' or what happens in the presence of God (the view you stated).

Instead, "Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:29-31).

The physical miracles pointed to the person of Jesus, Messiah, Son of God, and the One through whom belief in his name brings (eternal) life.

I wish you wouldn't invent what the text states through allegorical interpretation.
Posted by OzSpen, Monday, 24 December 2018 11:33:58 AM
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You are fond of quoting John. Here is one for you:

When he was in Jerusalem during the Passover festival, many believed in his name because they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part would not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people.

Belief based on the miraculous has very shallow foundations. It requires a rewriting of theology to incorporate an interventionist god and the destruction of two thousand years of trinitarian theology that tells us, since Augustine, that the persons can only act together. The primary act of God in the world according to trinitarian theology is that God acts through the Son in the Power of the Spirit. This is where we get our high ecclesiology. The Church is the body of Christ acting in the world in the Spirit. These theological principles should be taught in theology 101.
Anything else constructs a monument to superstition and nonsense and is the main reason that the Church is failing to influence the modern world.
Posted by Sells, Monday, 24 December 2018 12:36:35 PM
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The (non-Christian) Spiritual Gospel of Saint Jesus of Galilee Retold
http://www.dabase.org/up-6.htm

An expanded version of this reference http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/jesusandme.html is featured as section 17 of the above reference.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Monday, 24 December 2018 1:36:54 PM
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I have to say I have absolutely no faith whatsoever, never have had. In view of how things are reported now I have zero faith in any of this nonsense. It does chill me that "Faith" has been responsible for so much violence, repression and wholesale murder and I am glad I am not part of any of it. Seeing so much "Fake news" now is bad but thinking of the reporting of thousands of years ago is very depressing.
Good luck anyway but try not to be so obsessed because in the long run it helps no one, including you.
Posted by JBowyer, Monday, 24 December 2018 4:04:40 PM
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JBowyer,

After reading your response, I asked myself: 'What do these comments have to do with the content of the article to which you responded?'

I found nothing directed at the article's content but I did find some of your loaded presuppositions:

* 'I have absolutely no faith whatsoever'. Faith in what?

* 'Never have had'. Can I presume you have never had any faith in the Christian faith?

* You have 'zero faith' in 'how things are reported'. What does that mean? To what reporting do you refer?

* 'This nonsense' is an ad hominem logical fallacy. It would be better for me if you gave your reasons why the 'Faith' was nonsense for you, then we'd have some basis for discussion. But labelling like this prevents a logical discussion.

* '"Faith" has been responsible for so much violence, repression and wholesale murder'. In my article I demonstrated that any violence associated with that faith is an aberration and not the real thing, e.g. The Crusades, Calvin with Servetus, support of slavery. To that we could add the Inquisition. All of these oddities are defects that deviate from the Christian norm. The norm as spelled out by Jesus is, 'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God' (Matthew 5:9).

Christianity has spread through peaceful means and not through violence. Who are the ones doing violence to the Christian church today through persecution? Try the Communist Govt in China where there are approx. 100 million Christians. They have not multiplied by violence but by careful proclamation of the Gospel.

* History demonstrates that 'wholesale murder' has NOT happened through proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but through oppression by other religions.

* What is the 'fake news' you hear about the Christian faith?

* Are you an ancient historian who knows how to assess history from thousands of years ago? It's depressing when you shower us with your anti-Christian and anti-faith presuppositions.

I urge you to have a rational conversation with us instead of what you did in your comment.
Posted by OzSpen, Monday, 24 December 2018 6:29:48 PM
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How can you have faith when no less a person than a Cardinal of the Catholic Church has been found guilty in a court of law of crimes against alter boys.
Just another aberration? One of many?

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Monday, 24 December 2018 6:40:48 PM
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OZSpen I have no faith i.e. in any belief system in any God including your Christian one. With the amount of lies and nonsense the main stream media put out I have no faith in them either. The same people would have been spouting the same nonsense previously.
Certainly there is oppression of most religions but as religions have oppressed "Non believers" throughout history what exactly should you expect.
Also your Christian religion, in my opinion, is the same as the 7th century beliefs of islam and all the other JuJu foisted on the poor and ignorant.
I am in no position to oppress or give any other person a hard time but I do feel the need to remind you of some of these salient points.
Content yourself with the knowledge that the Russian Communists tried to destroy their Orthodox Church and it just got stronger Islam is a completely different problem. Good luck trying to get those nutters to see sense, never mind all those slavish left wing politicians who want their block of votes!
Posted by JBowyer, Monday, 24 December 2018 7:22:41 PM
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//History demonstrates that 'wholesale murder' has NOT happened through proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but through oppression by other religions.//

I refer you to the Strasbourg Massacre of 1349 and feel compelled to ask, if Christianity was not responsible for this act of oppression, which religion was?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 24 December 2018 7:26:47 PM
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VK3AUU (David),

It is horrendous what the Royal Commission into sexual abuse found with some church people, including a Roman Catholic Cardinal, who was guilty of crimes against boys. However, the majority of the church was not involved in this criminal activity.

I'm ashamed of these horrible things happening in the church.

Do you know why I continue to be a committed Christian, in spite of this abuse? One rotten tomato in a bag of tomatoes doesn't stop me from eating tomatoes. Even if there are hundreds of rotten tomatoes in bags of them, I continue eating tomatoes.

I know that these abominations in the RCC and other denominations are not a true picture of Jesus Christ and his Gospel that changes people from the inside out.

Even an apostate person like the late Charles Templeton (d. 7 June 2001) who wrote Farewell to God and was an associate of Billy Graham back in the 1940s, does not persuade me that the Christian faith is fake.

To the contrary, I've investigated the faith carefully and historically in my PhD dissertation and other studies and I've found not only that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, but also he never lets me down through the many trials of life - even when I don't serve him as faithfully as I ought.
Posted by OzSpen, Monday, 24 December 2018 7:27:45 PM
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//I know that these abominations in the RCC and other denominations are not a true picture of Jesus Christ and his Gospel//

Aye, Cardinal Pell is No True Scotsman, d'ye ken?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 24 December 2018 7:31:54 PM
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JBowyer,

Why won't you address the issues I raised with you about your anti-Christian presuppositions that you inflicted on us?

Toni,

You quoted what I wrote:

//History demonstrates that 'wholesale murder' has NOT happened through proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but through oppression by other religions.//

Then you commented about the Strasbourg Massacre of 1349. This massacre of Jews by the Roman Catholic Church had zero to do with my comment you quoted.

Would you please address the topic that you raised? The fact remains that history has demonstrated that those who have been born again by the Spirit of God through the proclamation of the Gospel, are not those engaged in 'wholesale murder'.

Take a read of Richard Dawkins comments about the decline of Christianity in my article - and he's not a supporter of Christianity.
Posted by OzSpen, Monday, 24 December 2018 7:51:41 PM
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//History demonstrates that 'wholesale murder' has NOT happened through proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but through oppression by other religions.//

//This massacre of Jews by the Roman Catholic Church had zero to do with my comment you quoted.//

Is Roman Catholicism not a Christian denomination, then? Gosh, I must have missed that memo.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 24 December 2018 8:03:25 PM
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To Peter.

What you've written must be a confrontation of your understanding of the world. After all how could it not be? Two of the foundations in Christian Faith are based on miracles. Jesus's birth, and His reserection three days after his crucification. Both are the foundations of Christian fain and much Christian understanding.

Yet you've mentioned that this topic of miracles is a hard one to believe. A hard one to swallow. Let this Christmas be the start of something for you. The search of modern day interventions of God. Not to prove or disprove them. Just collect them. See how much God still interacts with us in miraculous ways.

If you can find God in His ability to do anything,my hen perhaps it can help you to believe in Jesus outside of the two miracles that surround His birth and His reserection after His death. It might matter because the gospel is filled with signs that Jesus is from God. Jesus even say it as such that the miracles He does are a sign of Him and His message coming from God.

The blind see, the lame walk, the dead are brought back. These were signs Jesus gave to assure John the Baptist that Jesus is the Massiah that John was waiting for and who he proclaimed Jesus to be long ago before being jailed. If those are miracles that Jesus offers of His authority and to be a sign of who He is, then all of the other miracles from virgin birth, walking on water, calming a storm,feeding thousands on two different occasions, the transfiguration, His prophies and them coming true about the temple being distroyed, even to casting out demons.

(Continued)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 4:28:41 AM
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(Continued)

All of these are recorded as acts of Jesus outside of just His teachings. But if they are a sign of Jesus being from God and if they are hard to believe, then I highly recommend that you seek out acts of God in the lives today. Or at least the lives recorded after the New Testiment books are recorded. My hope in this recommendation is that by finding out how much God still interacts in the world today in both natural and miraculous ways, then your faith and understanding can be strengthened. And you don't have to doubt or try to explain away the miracles of the bible.

Good luck Peter, I know from your writtings that you are trying to share your faith to a skeptical world, and that you really are sincere in your faith to God, otherwise why would you write on in an overly skeptical and confrontational audience to Christianity. If you can find how often God still interacts in the world it might help you in believing the signs and miracles of Jesus as well,
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 4:30:21 AM
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Nothing committed to paper over fifty years after the event, Is necessarily historically accurate? In fact, the story of the exodus may have been a simple revolt by slaves against their Jewish Masters, and somewhere near modern-day Israel. a mountain climbing Moses and receiving the written word of God carved into tablets of stone for a population over 95% illiterate.

Meaning there was no exodus and no Moses smashing the first tablets to the ground in fury over what he allegedly claimed was obscene depravity.

Moreover, the new testament was Authored by four writers, who both plagiarised and embellished the work written earlier by Matthew, then Mark, then Luke, then John. John being the only educated scholar, and alone reports, walking on water and feeding the multitude from a single basket of bread and fish.

If one believes a man called Jesus Christ was put to death on a cross? Then one must hold open the possibility of the opposite being possible. In my limited reading of the Bible, the man Jesus never ever claimed to be the embodiment of God, but rather when asked about the miracles he allegedly performed said, It is not I who does these things, but the father in me.

That said and set aside, it is Christmas and miracles are possible, when fallen Angels want them badly enough and put enough faith into their appearance by expecting their realization as actual events!

And with as much belief in those outcomes as you believe in your visible world as your experienced literal reality.

Made even more powerful, "when two or more gather in my name." Great power there, and only available for good, never evil outcomes which are just boomerangs coming right back at you, in God's good time!

Thus allowing the father to work in any of his sons and daughters,i.e., the entire human race, to perform or co-create miracles! The fact that I'm still alive and able to write these words, one of them!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Tuesday, 25 December 2018 12:28:50 PM
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Not-Now_Soon
"Two of the foundations in Christian Faith are based on miracles. Jesus's birth, and His reserection three days after his crucification. Both are the foundations of Christian fain and much Christian understanding." On the contrary none of the great theologians of the Church base their systematic theology on the miraculous. This includes, perhaps the greatest of them all Augustine. In the present day, Barth, von Balthasar, Williams, Millbank etc do not base their theology on the reality of the miraculous.
Peter
Posted by Sells, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 12:48:55 PM
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yep the atheist faith of JBowyers that kills the unborn by the millions and is responsible for mass atrocities gives him the higher 'rational' ground. What nonsense. Without God their is no moral basis for him to even criticise the child molesters. Atheism is for those who have thrown away the ability to think past their dogmas. Most atheist know that one day they will face the moral Law Giver. For their sake I pray they find mercy rather than receive their just deserts.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 8:01:16 PM
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Alan B,

<<Nothing committed to paper over fifty years after the event, Is necessarily historically accurate?>>

Who said so? That's your presupposition about the dates of the life of Jesus and the recording of that life in the Gospels. It lacks the validity of historical research.

Let's compare the dating of the first 3 gospels with recording other ancient historical events. It doesn't matter if the gospels were written 30, 40 or 50 years after the events of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. How come? By ancient historical standards, this short amount of time allowed time for hostile eyewitnesses to refute the narratives if they were fake.

Compare the recording of the life of Alexander the Great, king of Macedonia, 336-323 B.C. with Jesus? What time lapsed between his life and recording of the events? The oldest existing biographies we have of Alexander are by Diodorus (1st century BC – ca. 300 years after his life). Then we have Quintus Curtius (1st century AD) and Plutarch and Arrian (best two on Alexander, from early 2nd century AD) [Craig Blomberg 2016. The Historical Reliability of the New Testament, pp. 17-18].

Luke made it very clear what were the sources of his evidence:

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught" (Luke 1:1-4).

Luke used material to compile a narrative delivered to them. This could have been by oral tradition); PLUS these people were 'eyewitnesses'. What better witnesses could one get? Even police today appeal for eyewitnesses to highway smashes, crime and violence. Luke 'carefully investigated everything' and wrote 'an orderly account' that Theophilus may 'HAVE CERTAINTY' about the things he had been taught.

(continued)
Posted by OzSpen, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 9:18:19 PM
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(continued)

Alan B,

You wrote:

<<In fact, the story of the exodus may have been a simple revolt by slaves against their Jewish Masters, and somewhere near modern-day Israel. a mountain climbing Moses and receiving the written word of God carved into tablets of stone for a population over 95% illiterate>>.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this article. It is your attempt to denigrate the Scriptures.

<<Moreover, the new testament (sic) was Authored (sic) by four writers, who both plagiarised and embellished the work written earlier by Matthew, then Mark, then Luke, then John. John being the only educated scholar, and alone reports, walking on water and feeding the multitude from a single basket of bread and fish.>>

Again, they are your conclusions, but you acknowledge you haven't read much of the Bible. As an historical Jesus' researcher, most of my investigation has found that Mark was the first Gospel written (Craig Blomberg).

<<In my limited reading of the Bible, the man Jesus never ever claimed to be the embodiment of God, but rather when asked about the miracles he allegedly performed said, It is not I who does these things, but the father in me>>.

There you go! You've owned up to your problem of not knowing the Scriptures, thus meaning you dump your anti-Bible bigotry on us.
Posted by OzSpen, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 9:22:48 PM
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Sells,

You oppose NNS and the use of miracles to support the foundation of Christianity - Jesus' birth and resurrection.

<<On the contrary none of the great theologians of the Church base their systematic theology on the miraculous. This includes, perhaps the greatest of them all Augustine. In the present day, Barth, von Balthasar, Williams, Millbank etc do not base their theology on the reality of the miraculous.>>

With this statement you have used at least 2 false approaches:

1. You committed the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy. See: http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority. It is this fallacy because you claimed that 'great theologians' did not base their 'systematic theology on the miraculous'. In using this fallacious reasoning, you have called upon your select group of theologians (I note that all of them are liberals, except maybe for Barth). Not one was an evangelical such as John Calvin, Thomas Oden, Louis Berkhof, Wayne Grudem, Norman Geisler, Kevin Vanhoozer, Millard Erickson, etc.

Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue, without any other supporting evidence offered, is erroneous reasoning.

What did the Gospel of John state about the sign miracles in that Gospel? 'But these [miraculous signs] are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.' (John 20:31). There is a reason for sign miracles in John's Gospel and he is crystal clear about the purpose.

2. You claim that even one of the greatest systematic theologians, St Augustine, did not base his theology on the miraculous. I have researched Augustine's view of miracles and he does not conclude as you have. I've had my article on his change of heart regarding miracles published. I have an edited version on my home page, 'St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing', available at: http://truthchallenge.one/blog/2012/04/16/st-augustine-the-man-who-dared-to-change-his-mind-about-divine-healing/.

See also, 'Augustine’s last illness: A divine healing encounter' at: http://truthchallenge.one/blog/2015/10/16/augustines-last-illness-a-divine-healing-encounter/. It was false information for you to include Augustine with liberal theologians who deny the miraculous.
Posted by OzSpen, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 10:15:43 PM
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runner,

I appreciate your enthusiasm for standing up for what you believe to be a Christian point of view.

However, what JBowyers wrote had nothing to do with killing millions of unborn and mass atrocities. I didn't read anything about this person taking 'the higher "rational" ground.' This person did make some provocative and unjust statements, but I don't think this is the time to sling 'mud' about this person's beliefs. The facts are that some abusers have been found in a number of denominations.

I'm ashamed of such disgraceful behaviour, but I also know I'm a sinner saved by God's grace. I also have the sinful nature I battle every day with Jesus' help.

Even though you want to talk about atheism and its dogmas, please, please do it graciously with a demonstration of the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). Don't you think we as Christians should demonstrate these qualities when we speak to one another on this forum?

Do you think that God believes in atheists? Take a read of Romans 1:18-20: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1%3A18-20&version=NIV.
Posted by OzSpen, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 11:12:55 PM
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To Sells.

It does worry me a bit if you believe that most theologians don't accept the miraculous birth of Jesus, nor the resurrection of Jesus. It would trouble me more if it was true that most theologians don't accept these things, but I have my doubts on that.

Don't take it the wrong way about my suggestion of looking for modern day miracles. I gave that suggestion due to what you wrote in your article, that the miracles in the bible were hard for you to believe. If you had some reason to believe in miracles today, then the greater miracles done by Jesus might be easier for you to come to terms with as well. It was just a suggestion to strengthen your faith.

Regarding the different theologians, I might not have the background to research and know them, but from what I've read of different Christian creeds (a pastor I had use to have several creeds read after the sermon, so that we could know. The apstoles creed was one of them. If my memory serves, most of the creeds included in them that Jesus was born a virgin, and was reserected. I think several also had something about the trinity in them as well. Based on that, I would assure you that there are probabley many theologians that believe in at least these two miracles. Even to help support the community by spelling out what it means to be Christian and believe, in light of several heretical splits that occured throughout history. Hope that as well could be an encouragement to you.

Merry Christmas. :)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Wednesday, 26 December 2018 1:29:38 AM
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Ozpen. Given you could not contradict me, just attacked me because like most folk "educated" in the Catholic tradition, Have limited personal knowledge of the bible. Given the literal thousands of interpretations revisions and extensive editing, so it fits the narrative of this or that discipline!

The oldest bible is on display in a Munich museum and would seem to be a completely different book from most modern versions.

As a scholar, read intensively about early esoteric Christianity, the first council of Nicosia, literally overseen by the pagan sun worshiper Constantine. Who appointed his own Bishops and effectively decided what books would be included. And those which wouldn't! And was only baptised on his deathbed!

Early esoteric Christians met in one another's homes, to break bread in remembrance. Built no grand edifices to glorify God nor heard confession nor pardoned one another's sins. But instead repeated the line, so as you sow so also shall ye reap.

And I stand by my statement as a quote from the bible, that Jesus when was asked about his alleged miracles? Is said to have replied, it is not I who does these things but the father in me.

The early church had no bishops at the head of marauding armies, nor put non-believers to the sword book and typically of the religious fanatic, you want to know where I read that? Suffice to say, in dozens of books by countless Authors/biblical scholars!

The confessional like marriage as a formal sacrament.

Only part of the MAN MADE mechanism of a control freak church some 700 years after the death of Christ, and Marriage as a church performed sacrament, only invented, in the last 3-500 years. All just about fiscal control of a largely illiterate and extremely gullible, highly gullible populous!

Suggested reading, is the historically accurate, Pillars of the earth. Moreover, an interesting well written, entertaining religious epic! And never ever boring.
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Wednesday, 26 December 2018 11:34:34 AM
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Hi Alan,

I love reading your posts.

Things that are fun to believe in:

1) ghosts
2) aliens
3) magic
4) yourself

Enjoy every moment!
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 26 December 2018 1:20:58 PM
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Wow, Spencer, I'm amazed.

Somehow you seem to have made time on Christmas Day, no less, to post four lengthy missives... and I can't even get a straight answer on the Christianity (or otherwise) of the Roman Catholic Church.

//but I also know I'm a sinner saved by God's grace.//

Aye, well, you're not alone there. God will save all who live a decent moral life. He saves atheists and Christians alike, and everything in between. He shall know them by their fruits.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 26 December 2018 5:06:14 PM
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Foxy, you forgot Thorium!
Posted by JBowyer, Wednesday, 26 December 2018 7:12:24 PM
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//In using this fallacious reasoning, you have called upon your select group of theologians (I note that all of them are liberals, except maybe for Barth).//

Augustine? As in 'St. Augustine of Hippo'? A liberal? About 1,000 (one thousand) years before liberalism was even a thing?

[Snort. Guffaw. Giggle.]

I reckon this bloke is a few quarks short of a hadron.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 26 December 2018 9:23:41 PM
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JBowyer,

Thorium?

It's an Element not to ignore!

It's green, it's lean, it's a sustainable machine!
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 26 December 2018 9:47:57 PM
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.

Dear Peter,

.

While I have utmost respect for your belief in some sort of divinity, the intricacies of the concept you describe here are a real labyrinth of complexity. It has the paradoxical effect of throwing doubt on the very existence of divinity. A three-headed monster, some sort of Hydra as in Greek mythology which you, yourself, apprehend when you write : “ How to understand the incarnation without making Jesus a divine messenger in a Greek myth?”.

That said, the attributes of the multiform and multifunction divinity, fruit of the fertile minds of your theological authorities and mentors, are a remarkable effort of imagination for those in need of a logical foundation for their belief in a monotheism incarnated by the presumed historical persona of Jesus of Nazareth.

But if logic is necessary for comprehension in order to form an opinion, or should I say, “belief”, it is not a requisite for faith. Religious faith is not based on logic and comprehension. It is based solely on trust.

Yet, you point out :

« The answer that the Church gives about how we can receive the presence of God is given in Christology, the doctrine about Jesus, the Christ. No other path to God is available to us »

What about the path of faith, Peter ? Does the Church discount the faith of simple, non-intellectual, religious devotees who are incapable of understanding and only have their faith to rely on ?

What about yourself, do you feel the need for a “logical” explanation in order to believe ? Or, like most devotees, do you simply rely on your faith too ?

After all, the Council of Chalcidon in the year 451, at which the Church elaborated its official dogma, resulted not in a consensus but in a schism. Nor has the Church ever claimed that its “doctrine about Jesus” was the result of divine revelation. It was clearly, and simply, the result of a power struggle among the various participants at the Council - a competing, purely human, conception.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Thursday, 27 December 2018 3:38:36 AM
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Toni,

<<God will save all who live a decent moral life>>

That statement is found nowhere in this Bible. This is what you'll find:

+ " or God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes [Gk: continues to believe] in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16);

+ "No one living is righteous before you" (Psalm 143:2).

God saves only those who continue to trust in Jesus.

<<He saves atheists and Christians alike, and everything in between>>

God saves 'whoever'. He saves atheists who submit to him. He doesn't have to save Christians as they HAVE BEEN saved.

<<He shall know them by their fruits>>

The Bible states you have the wrong subject, 'He', in that sentence. Who are 'them'?

"YOU shall know [or recognise] them by their fruits" (Matt 7:15). The 'you' refers to believers (Jesus' disciples - Matt 5:1) and 'them' to 'false prophets' (Matt 7:20). It does not deal with recognising Christians by the fruit of their lives. It gives disciples a way to distinguish false prophets.

If we want to identify Christians, Jesus said: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35).

I suggest you do a lot more reading of Scripture to arrive at accurate biblical content of the message of good news of salvation through Jesus Christ.
You asked for …

<<a straight answer on the Christianity (or otherwise) of the Roman Catholic Church>>

I hope that what I've written above indicated that to be a true Christian and part of Christianity, people (who form part of denominations) need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through faith (trust) in Him. So, within any denomination it declares itself Christian or non-Christian by the gospel message it proclaims. Is it what Jesus said in the Bible or not.

I don't determine whether a denomination is Christian or not. That is decided by whether it supports Jesus' teaching of 'the way, the truth and the life' (John 14:6).
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 27 December 2018 6:36:07 AM
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Banjo,

<<Religious faith is not based on logic and comprehension. It is based solely on trust.>>

The gospel (good news) of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16) certainly is based on logic. We can have no gospel sentences to understand without logic. Logic is used in every sentence, paragraph, chapter and book of the bible.

James Cook University's Graduate Research School confirms this: "Grammar and syntax have a logic - if the reader is to understand the meaning of the sentence then that logic has to be followed", http://egrs.jcu.edu.au/workshops/academic-writing-workshops/sentence-logic-and-punctuation.

I use logic in reading the Bible, understanding Christian faith, reading the JCU statements regarding logic, reading your post and the Bible.

It is a fanciful statement to state religious faith is not based on logic.

As for understanding, "How can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?" (Rom 10:14). Hearing infers the need to understand.

What is this gospel content for understanding? "I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said" (1 Cor 15:3-4).

Faith without understanding is not genuine faith but a leap of faith. Faith in Jesus is founded on facts that need comprehension.

<<What about yourself, do you feel the need for a “logical” explanation in order to believe ? Or, like most devotees, do you simply rely on your faith too ?>>

My faith is not a nebulous faith, but founded on fact. I had a basic understanding when born again, thanks to my parents' faith in Jesus and becoming born again, through proclamation of the late Billy Graham in his 1959 Australian crusades. Since then, I've grown in the faith through study of Scripture, history and culture of Bible times.
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 27 December 2018 7:19:59 AM
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Your patience in explaining and exposing Ozspen is commendable. You seem to have a very good grasp on the Scriptures.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 27 December 2018 2:45:53 PM
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Dear Banjo Paterson,

You can't argue with someone who takes the Bible
literally. You pray for them. You may try to discuss
Biblical interpretations with them and the Church's
official stance - which is that every word in the
Bible is true in its proper context. However it should
be pointed out that the Lord spoke in parables. He told
stories to make a point.

If someone thinks the Bible is inerrant - that it has
no errors - again, are they talking about the Revised
Standard Version, the Catholic edition? Certainly not.
It is just a translation of a translation of scrolls
that have been lost to history for hundreds of years.

Is the King James Version literally true? Of course not.
Then we would have to believe all kinds of nonsense
that is demonstrably fake and no one was around back
then to back it up.

But God was there. He is still here, talking to us.
To you and me. That message is indeed infallible.

"Judge not ..."

"Love thy neighbour..."

"Do unto others..."
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 December 2018 6:22:18 PM
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Foxy,

<<You can't argue with someone who takes the Bible
literally. You pray for them.>>

What is your understanding of 'literal interpretation'?

Did you want me to read your post as a literal piece of writing or to interpret it parabolically, allegorically or symbolically
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 27 December 2018 7:54:11 PM
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Foxy,

<<If someone thinks the Bible is inerrant - that it has no errors - again, are they talking about the Revised Standard Version, the Catholic edition? Certainly not. It is just a translation of a translation of scrolls that have been lost to history for hundreds of years.>>

This demonstrates your ignorance of the biblical teaching on inerrancy (i.e. infallibility). It has NEVER referred to the inerrancy of any translation, whether that be the Douay-Rheims, KJV, RSV, NRSV or NIV.

I suggest you do some study into the biblical teaching of inerrancy so that you can present accurate information on this forum instead of giving us a Strawman Fallacy: http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy.

A basic view of biblical inerrancy is explained by Dr D A Carson in 'Understanding the doctrine of inerrancy': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kfs1_0LlZA, and it doesn't agree with your statements.
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 27 December 2018 8:10:09 PM
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.

Dear OzSpen,

.

You wrote :

« Logic is used in every sentence, paragraph, chapter and book of the bible … Faith in Jesus is founded on facts that need comprehension … My faith is not a nebulous faith, but founded on fact »
.

All narrative, whether it be fiction or non-fiction, has to be perfectly logic for it to be comprehensible. The fact that it is logic does not mean that it is necessarily founded on fact. It could be perfectly logic but the pure fruit of the imagination of the author – and not contain an ounce of fact.

The New Testament is full of narratives purporting to relate to the life of Jesus of Nazareth (which is what interests us here) but although virtually all Christian scholars agree that Jesus existed, the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

These are the only facts relating to Jesus that may be considered as having been established historically. All the rest is highly contested and simply a question of personal faith in Christian dogma.

Either you have faith and adhere to that dogma or you do not. You obviously do and that’s fine with me. I, personally, see no reason to do so. I am quite happy to acknowledge that Jesus of Nazareth probably did exist, that he was baptised by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontus Pilate.

I consider that all the rest is simply the fruit of the imagination of a few enlightened individuals, an appreciable system of collective psychotherapy, wishful thinking and hearsay, as well as an effective instrument of sociological cohesion and control.

My mind remains open to a more credible explanation that may possibly be forthcoming anytime during the future.

That said, I expect to die. I do not expect to be born again and I see no reason to believe in eternal life :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 28 December 2018 12:38:11 AM
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.

Dear Foxy,

.

Your declaration of faith is very touching. It does you honour and commands my respect.

However, it is impossible for me to share it. My eyes opened and I managed to see the light a few years ago, after almost a lifetime of enquiry. My expectation had always been that, like you, I would finally become convinced that there is a God.

Exactly the opposite occurred.

Now, like the Flying Dutchman, I am condemned, not to roam the seas as the legend has it, but to look reality squarely in the face for the rest of my life. There is no way I can escape it :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9b97PZUykE

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 28 December 2018 3:19:07 AM
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Dear Banjo Paterson,

Thank You. I totally respect your position.
And I always love reading your posts.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 December 2018 9:52:22 AM
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Hi VK3AUU (David)
Whilst as Christians we are appalled by the actions of many church "leaders" who have committed offenses against children, I don't think that you can deduce a rejection of the world view of that offender, because of his deeds.

As Ozspen has stated, their actions are a deviation from the Christian norm.

What you (and I ) have to do, is assess whether the evidence for the Christian world view is there. Because the actions of the churchman in this instance are inconsistent with orthodox Christian teaching.

I mean what are you going to do if it is later revealed that Charles Darwin was a racist, or a pedophile? Are you going to reject evolution because of a bad report about one of the bulwarks of atheism?

The Inspector 6.3VAC TxRx SWR>10dB 6AU6
Posted by The Inspector, Friday, 28 December 2018 10:11:09 AM
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Inspector,

No one is denying that sexual abuse of children
is horrendous and intolerable and that the failure of
the church to deal with it effectively has done
immeasurable damage to victims. The cover-ups,
the protection of abusive clergy and the refusal to
admit egregious mistakes are unjustifiable.

We have not yet even begun to calculate the damage
these crimes have done to people's trust and to the
reputation of the church. Law had moved demonstrably
abusive priests from parish to parish, thus giving
them access to new victims.

There is no doubt that the clerical profession has taken
a severe battering and that respect for the priesthood is
understandably at an all-time low. Young people - and their
elders - are rightly sceptical about everything the church
says about gender and sexuality. But this has a flow-on
effect with the church's entire message, especially in
challenging social justice message and cultural critique
equally dismissed.

Trust is going to to have to be built from the bottom up
by bishops and priests before their pronouncements on
morality will be taken seriously again - so perhaps it
would be best if they took a vow of silence about these
issues for several decades to come.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 December 2018 2:28:57 PM
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Foxy,

<<There is no doubt that the clerical profession has taken a severe battering and that respect for the priesthood is understandably at an all-time low. Young people - and their elders - are rightly sceptical about everything the church says about gender and sexuality.>>

You have a bad habit of dumping your antagonism for the church and Christianity on any discussion (including this one) that raises Christian matters.

The Inspector agreed with you: <<Whilst as Christians we are appalled by the actions of many church "leaders" who have committed offenses against children....>>

What you have done again in your post is not address the main issue that The Inspector raised, which was:

<<... I don't think that you can deduce a rejection of the world view of that offender, because of his deeds.... What you (and I) have to do, is assess whether the evidence for the Christian world view is there. Because the actions of the churchman in this instance are inconsistent with orthodox Christian teaching.>>

You are off and running with your red herring logical fallacy where you redirect us to another issue, not the validity of the Christian world view raid by The Inspector, but to sexual abuse by clergy.

Yours is a deliberate diversion of attention away from what The Inspector raised about rejecting a world view based on misdeeds of a few. This was your attempt to abandon discussion of the Christian world view. See: http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/150/Red_Herring.

Now let's get down to the nitty gritty of testing the Christian world view as it relates to Christmas.

We can test the major world views by examining how well they answer four questions about:

1. Origin
2. Meaning
3. Morality
4. Destiny

(suggested by Ravi Zacharias, http://connect.rzim.org/t/how-do-you-know-that-christianity-is-the-one-true-worldview/1370)
Posted by OzSpen, Friday, 28 December 2018 3:39:37 PM
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On the contrary. I did not divert anything. I felt it
important that the mistakes of the church be discussed
not brushed aside. Many young people have stopped
identifying themselves as Catholics for example.
This is not dumping on the church. This is stating facts.
Many feel that the problems embedded within the church are
the structure of the church - that is -hierarchy. The
irrelevance of the church today. By irrelevance, people feel
the church has lost its ability to connect with the day-to-
day lives of ordinary people. People want to talk about
issues that they are faced with. However, your attitude is
rather strange and you are the one trying to diver things
by accusing me of something that I was not trying to do.

I'm not interested in your preaching to me. I would like a
discussion but it appears that is something that you
prefer not to have. You'd rather attack than discuss.
Fair enough. I shall leave you to it.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 December 2018 4:10:37 PM
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<<On the contrary. I did not divert anything. I felt it important that the mistakes of the church be discussed not brushed aside. Many young people have stopped identifying themselves as Catholics for example.
This is not dumping on the church.>>

You replied to The Inspector who asked you to deal with the content of a Christian world view. You ignored that and went to child abuse and the church. This is fallacious reasoning, a red herring fallacy.

<<I'm not interested in your preaching to me. I would like a
discussion but it appears that is something that you
prefer not to have. You'd rather attack than discuss.
Fair enough. I shall leave you to it>>

Here again you refuse to deal with evidence of a Christian world view.

That’s a straw man – a false understanding of what I did. If you call that preaching, I suggest you become better informed.

I have NEVER attacked you in my posts but have attempted to direct you and me to a rational discussion. That cannot happen when you engage in erroneous reasoning.
Posted by OzSpen, Friday, 28 December 2018 4:39:14 PM
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Part of dealing with the content of a Christian World
View is also being able to discuss what people are
saying in a range of ways about the position of the
Christian World View on a variety of issues.
I merely mentioned one. There are so many we can talk
about. It should be of concern to us all what people
are saying and whether they can sufficiently locate
themselves with the Christian World View. One lady
in her 50s said: "But Jesus who I love and I talk to
and pray to and believe in doesn't act like Bishop X
and like a lot of those people who to me are just awful
people because they are so judgemental and holier than
thou and come out and damn people, and publicly.
Where's the God there?"

Relevance and behaviour of the church and its clergy
is therefore important in how the Christian World
View is being perceived by people. Validity and
relevance makes a big difference between full or
empty churches. The misuse of power was seen in the
botched attempts of dioceses to cover up sexual abuse,
the unequal treatment of men and women, particularly
the refusal to ordain women, physical abuse and
corporal punishment, often many years previously in
Catholic institutions and schools. Unjust treatment
from religious employers and dismissal from
employment over re-marriage without an annulment and the
list goes on. That's discussing Christian World View -
as Christians see it - and the issues that they face
on a daily basis. They can't just be ignored.

At least one wouldn't think so,
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 December 2018 6:41:05 PM
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Foxy,

<<Part of dealing with the content of a Christian World
View is also being able to discuss what people are
saying in a range of ways about the position of the
Christian World View on a variety of issues.
I merely mentioned one. There are so many we can talk
about.>>

You've raised some excellent issues in this post.

I'd like to ask: What do you think are the 3 or 4 main beliefs that comprise a Christian world view?
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 29 December 2018 6:56:33 AM
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I can see that you want this conversation to continue.

I prefer to let it all go and not argue with anyone's
personal beliefs.

Have a nice day.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 29 December 2018 10:00:49 AM
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Foxy,

<< I can see that you want this conversation to continue. I prefer to let it all go and not argue with anyone's personal beliefs.>>

That was NOT your attitude when you Posted by Foxy, Friday, 28 December 2018 4:10:37 PM. That was only yesterday - Friday.

What has caused you to change your mind?
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 29 December 2018 12:30:56 PM
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David,

"How can you have faith when no less a person than a Cardinal of the Catholic Church has been found guilty in a court of law of crimes against alter boys."

Which Cardinal?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 29 December 2018 3:02:25 PM
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Is Mise,

http://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/12/12/cardinal-pell-top-adviser-pope-francis-found-guilty-historical-sexual-offenses
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 29 December 2018 3:26:52 PM
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Is Mise,

Again apologies for the typo.

Here's the link again:

http://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/12/12/cardinal-pell-top-advisor-pope-francis-found-guilty-historical-sexual-offences
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 29 December 2018 5:37:04 PM
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Foxy,

The link doesn't work.

If it is Cardinal Pell, which jurisdiction found him guilty?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 29 December 2018 6:46:38 PM
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Foxy,

I got to the link in a roundabout way; very interesting.

David,

"How can you have faith when no less a person than a Cardinal of the Catholic Church has been found guilty in a court of law of crimes against alter boys."

I understand that there is a suppression order in place and that the charges have not been publicised, where did you get your information?"
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 29 December 2018 7:51:36 PM
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Is Mise,

<<>"How can you have faith when no less a person than a Cardinal of the Catholic Church has been found guilty in a court of law of crimes against alter boys."

I understand that there is a suppression order in place and that the charges have not been publicised, where did you get your information?">>

That's like asking: 'How can I put my trust in banks to invest with them and obtain loans from them after all the corruption that was found in the Banking Royal Commission?'

Why don't we discuss how the Christian world view makes sense or no sense at Christmas?
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 29 December 2018 8:46:14 PM
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OzSpen,

The Christian world view makes sense 365/anum, what doesn't make sense is that atheists celebrate Christmas and accept penalty rates when they have to work!

An ethical standpoint would be to refuse the day off, unless it fell on a Sunday (whoops! another ethical dilemma) and to refuse all other concessions for a religious holiday.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 December 2018 8:09:10 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

My apologies for all the typos. I kept miss-spelling
the various words in the link. Hopefully it will work
this time:

http://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/12/12/cardinal-pell-top-advisor-pope-francis-found-guilty-historical-sexual-offenses
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 30 December 2018 10:18:37 AM
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Is Mise,

<<The Christian world view makes sense 365/anum, what doesn't make sense is that atheists celebrate Christmas and accept penalty rates when they have to work!>>

I agree that it is an oxymoron that atheists reject core Christian celebrations such as Christmas (birth of Jesus to a virgin) and Easter (Jesus' death, burial and resurrection), yet they don't reject penalty rates if they work over those holiday periods.

I guess that the response could be: 'We adhere to the laws of the land which require a certain % of penalty rates on public holidays'.

How do you understand that the Christian world view makes sense 24/7? What do you consider are core beliefs of a Christian world view?
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 30 December 2018 12:55:56 PM
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Dear Peter and Banjo,

«people like me, educated in the sciences, do not believe in miracles because their scientific education forbids them.»

«Now, like the Flying Dutchman, I am condemned, not to roam the seas as the legend has it, but to look reality squarely in the face for the rest of my life. There is no way I can escape it»

Forbidden? Condemned?

My heart pours out to you!

Yes, in the U.S.S.R faith was forbidden and condemned, so it is today in North Korea and so are the limitations on faith in many Muslim countries, but can it be so in Australia which prides itself on "freedom of belief"?

What can they do to you if you ignore and disobey the demands of science?

WHO IS YOUR MASTER? WHOM DO YOU FEAR?

The bible tells about false prophets in Deuteronomy 13:1-4:
"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him."

Science is such a false prophet. It can indeed foretell certain things, but this does not give it any authority over your life.

Stop behaving like helpless victims: set yourself free, take the driver's seat and be the master of your mind, tell it what to think and what to believe, tell it to choose good over evil so it serves you in serving God.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 30 December 2018 1:45:13 PM
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Yuyutsu,

<<Stop behaving like helpless victims: set yourself free, take the driver's seat and be the master of your mind, tell it what to think and what to believe, tell it to choose good over evil so it serves you in serving God.>>

Try telling that to the alcoholic, ICE addict, paedophile, compulsive smoker or witch doctor committed to occult demonic manifestations!
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 30 December 2018 3:08:02 PM
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OzSpen,

"I guess that the response could be: 'We adhere to the laws of the land which require a certain % of penalty rates on public holiday"

There is no compulsion to accept penalty rates, one can opt out on conscience/ethical views; I have yet to meet an atheist wo has done so.
Ethics always comes a poor last to money.

A friend and I objected to compulsory contributions by employers to superannuation funds, we considered that pay rises would have been better.

Compulsory Super became law but when we were asked to sign on the dotted line, we refused because it was not compulsory for us to accept.

Consternation!!

But we were right and special provision had to be made to get us out of the system.

To be fair, I must admit that the amount of money was piddling as we knew that the company was close to shutting down.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 December 2018 4:07:54 PM
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.

Dear Yuyutsu,

.

You wrote :

[ Dear Peter and Banjo,

“people like me, educated in the sciences, do not believe in miracles because their scientific education forbids them”

“Now, like the Flying Dutchman, I am condemned, not to roam the seas as the legend has it, but to look reality squarely in the face for the rest of my life. There is no way I can escape it”

Forbidden? Condemned?

Yes, in the U.S.S.R faith was forbidden and condemned … but can it be so in Australia which prides itself on "freedom of belief ? ]
.

The sense of Peter’s “forbids” and of my “condemned” should be understood to mean as follows :

“to force into a specific state or activity (or inactivity)"

As, for example, in the following sentences :

His lack of education forbids him from being promoted to the rank of officer in the army.

His lack of education condemned him to a life of menial jobs.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 31 December 2018 10:21:55 AM
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I can only wish all on this page, a very merry Christmas for 2019 and a "very happy" new year! Particularly when I read the following:

<<The sense of Peter’s “forbids” and of my “condemned” should be understood to mean as follows:

“to force into a specific state or activity (or inactivity)"

As, for example, in the following sentences:

His lack of education forbids him from being promoted to the rank of officer in the army.

His lack of education condemned him to a life of menial jobs.>>

Taking that logic, it is an assumption with a "lack of" what some consider "education", one's ability to change, improve or develop for example as an individual will simply not occur.

This is simply wrong and if some in the community, continue to put out messages about lack of an ability to change, due to a lack of "education" (and I can assume that means institutions like a school and a university for example) there will be a lack of, or no change in society worldwide.

Is this positive?

No one is condemned into anything, because of some peoples set perceptions of education and what it is to include, or condemned as a person in terms of how society is to operate in the minds of some and their views on having varying levels of class.

What some may consider unimportant to some, is very important to others and vice versa. These areas of importance will be very broad and more than a simplistic focus on (set) education like mentioned above.
Posted by NathanJ, Monday, 31 December 2018 1:10:25 PM
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.

Dear NathanJ,

.

A happy New Year to you too NathanJ.

I shall leave it to Peter Sellick to do his own explaining of his use of the word “forbids” if he feels inclined to do so – which, I’m afraid to have to say, I very much doubt, knowing him as I do.

I, personally, employed the word “condemned”.

The OED online dictionary defines it as:

« 1. Sentenced to a particular punishment, especially death.
2. Officially declared unfit for use. »

However, as most of us are aware, there are also a number of other meanings which are less important and which are employed less frequently. Dictionary.com provides no less than seven different meanings for the word “condemned”, one of which is the sense in which I employed it :

« 6. to force into a specific state or activity (or inactivity).

[Dictionary.com then indicates the following sentence as an example of the use of the word in this sense] :

His lack of education condemned him to a life of menial jobs »

If you don’t like that example of Dictionary.com, here is another one from the Collins dictionary :

« Just that she can't stand playing the role that she's condemned to by birth »
.

This polemic began when Yuyutsu commented on my post to Foxy on page 7 of this thread in which I declared :

« Now, like the Flying Dutchman, I am condemned, not to roam the seas as the legend has it, but to look reality squarely in the face for the rest of my life. There is no way I can escape it »

What I was saying was that as I do not believe in the God hypothesis I am left, forever, facing reality as it is – without the comfort and reassurance that the illusion of a supreme saviour would provide.

The “condemnation” I refer to has nothing to do with any lack of freedom on my part to decide whatever I like. It is simply the consequence of my rejection of the God hypothesis.

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Posted by Banjo Paterson, Tuesday, 1 January 2019 9:03:54 AM
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