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The Forum > Article Comments > Cynicism about Jesus as an Easter 'treat' > Comments

Cynicism about Jesus as an Easter 'treat' : Comments

By Spencer Gear, published 4/4/2018

Don't be so ridiculous as to expect Australian secular people to support the original meaning of Easter. We are into chocolate and not that religious stuff!

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This man allegedly walked on water and fed a multitude from a single basket of fish and bread. And included in later revised scripture to make the man fit the predicted mould of the (miracle performing) Messiah? XXX The catechism and stations of the cross, endlessly repeated, unproven hearsay/brain washing! XXX In endlessly reviewed, revised and edited Christian teachings, resurrection could just as easily mean reincarnation. XXX Even so, Easter has been, well and truly commercialised! And has lost every element of former sacred reverence. With sport and betting on outcomes (money changers in the temple) prolific. XXX Why even one parliament sat on Easter Friday just to get a highly contentious bill forced through the house? XXX And here we were thinking, we lived in a fair dinkum democracy. XXX Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Wednesday, 4 April 2018 11:24:45 AM
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Its really quite simple.
Unless anyone, including all of the "expert authorities" quoted by Spencer, actually knew or met "Jesus" up close and personal in a living-breathing-feeling human form, and actually witnessed and touched his "resurrected body" (which was of course impossible because there was no such "body") then everything one says and "believes" re all of the entirely fictional stories about Saint Jesus of Galilee are just plain and simply NOT TRUE.

The author of the references below pointed out that unless one has indisputable solid documentary evidence of which there is NONE. And even more importantly PHOTOGRAPHS of any/all of the famous "historical" figures featured in the multivarious "religious" myths of humankind, especially in the case of "Jesus" then everything that one says is mere conjecture and hearsay.

http://www.dabase.org/up-5-1.htm
http://www.beezone.com/da_publications/bloodsac.html
http://www.beezone.com/da_publications/exochrist.html

This essay describes the differences and SIMILARITIES of proponents of
both atheism and the usual dim-witted "theists".
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/nirvanasara/chapter4.html

This references provides an interesting explanation of how postmodernism relates to Western philosophy altogether, and its dim-witted "religion".
http://www.adidaupclose.org/FAQs/postmodernism2.html
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 1:36:54 PM
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What a bore! Easter, Christmas, Anzac Day or Australia Day: there is always someone who wants say the same things about these events every year that have been said in the past and will continue to be said in the future by people with very little to think about.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 3:03:45 PM
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As an atheist I have no real problems with people not calling Easter eggs by their traditional name as I seldom buy them.

However, I have a problem with often the same companies raising the price of their products by paying to make them Halal certified.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 5:52:04 PM
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Daffy Duck.

I've read your links. You know what? At the end of all that verbiage the conclusion it makes is a rejection of the belief in the resurrection of Christ.

By the Christian, it is to be accepted as fact, or treated as a lie, and the whole belief in Christianity abandoned.

Simple!
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 4 April 2018 9:33:47 PM
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diver dan,

The issue is not 'by the Christian, it is to be accepted as fact'. If the resurrection is not found to be fact for friend and foe to discover, it's a farce.

The apostle Paul warned about this: "if Christ has not been raised, what we preach doesn’t mean anything. Your faith doesn’t mean anything either. More than that, we would be lying about God" (1 Cor 15:14-15 ).

Ancient historian & scholar of early Christianity, Professor N T Wright, who was cited in the article, also demonstrated the historical evidence for the fact of the resurrection:

"All this brings us face to face with the ultimate question. The empty tomb and the meetings with Jesus are, in combination, the only possible explanation for the stories and beliefs that grew up so quickly among his followers. How, in turn, do we explain them? In any other historical enquiry, the answer would be so obvious that it would hardly need saying: the best explanation is that it happened that way. All the signposts are pointing in one direction....

"Christianity appeals to history, and to history it must go. And the question of Jesus's resurrection, though it may in some senses burst the boundaries of history, also remains within them....

"Faith in Jesus risen from the dead transcends but includes what we call history, and science, for that matter. Faith of this sort is not blind belief which rejects all history and science" (Only Love Believes: The Resurrection of Jesus and the Constraints of History, Wright 2014).

Wright explains his reasons in his 800pp investigation, 'The Resurrection of the Son of God'(2003).

This is in the realm for all historians to investigate, as long as they deal with all of the evidence available.

Halal certification was not the topic of this article. Why don't you write a piece with that focus?
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 5 April 2018 7:48:57 AM
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Daffy Duck,

You stated: "Unless anyone, including all of the "expert authorities" quoted by Spencer, actually knew or met "Jesus" up close and personal in a living-breathing-feeling human form, and actually witnessed and touched his "resurrected body" (which was of course impossible because there was no such "body") then everything one says and "believes" re all of the entirely fictional stories about Saint Jesus of Galilee are just plain and simply NOT TRUE".

This is an irrational statement when dealing with historical science. Did the historical writers about Aristotle, Nero, Luther, Captain James Cook and Captain Arthur Phillip know and meet these historical figures in a personal way of touching the person? Of course not!

The composer of the Gospel of Luke told us how he gained his information:

He drew up an account that depended on reports "handed down" (oral tradition) by "eyewitnesses" (not hear-say evidence) at the time of Jesus in the first century. Luke "carefully investigated everything from the beginning", as any competent researcher would do (Luke 1:1-4).

The nature of historical records is that they had to be recorded by people in past history, not by your incredulous statement that the contemporary "expert authorities" such as Pannenberg, Habermas and Wright had to get up close to Jesus.

The author whose links you gave is a joke with your paraphrased statement: 'Even more importantly PHOTOGRAPHS of any/all of the famous "historical" figures featured in the multivarious "religious" myth'. Photography had not been invented 2000 years ago. This author seems to be in fairyland.

Then you dump a number of your presuppositions on us for good measure:

* "fictional stories" about Jesus that are "not true". That's a personal assertion, not an attempt to deal with the historical evidence.
* "'religious 'myths'";
* 'there was no such "body"';
* 'indisputable solid documentary evidence of which there is NONE';
* 'the usual dim-witted "theists"'.

Why don't you write an article for On Line Opinion: 'Why Christianity is a religious myth promoted by dim-witted theists'?
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 5 April 2018 8:37:50 AM
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https://www.wordonfire.org/wof-site/media/did-jesus-really-rise-from-the-dead.pdf
Posted by George, Thursday, 5 April 2018 8:53:37 AM
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Oz Spen

*…The issue is not 'by the Christian, it is to be accepted as fact'. If the resurrection is not found to be fact for friend and foe to discover, it's a farce…*

I totally disagree with your conclusion.

It's actually irrelevant who, outside of the Christian believer, believes what.

Isn't it true to say, the responsibility of the Christian is to recruit for God. It's called missionary work.

The whole of the Christian message is one of faith. It's as Paul says, if the resurrection is a fallacy, then effectively the whole of the Christian message is also a fallacy.

Effectively the truth or otherwise of the resurrection is not to be questioned. The resurrection is stated as being a fact. It requires a faith in the message to believe it.

Countering this view with a scientific challenge based on physics is ridiculous. For a Christian to wriggle out of the belief of the resurrection, using the same argument of science is fruitless.

If I can locate the book you mention I'll read it. But I'm unlikely to change my mind.

As for your comment on Halal certification of Easter eggs, I'm not deeply into oxymoronic debate.
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 5 April 2018 9:43:14 AM
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OzSpen

I should point out my position on this and other “did it or didn't it” debates.

These things annoy the crap out of me. It is the problem I have with our esteemed poster Sells.

I was born into and raised as a Calvinist. I have not the slightest problem with my belief system.

I'd remind you of one of the last acts on earth of John Calvin, it was to preside over the burning of a witch.

Calvinists don't flinch!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 5 April 2018 10:05:53 AM
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PS

King Henry VIII , presided over the burning of witches at the rate of 3.25 PA.

John Calvin is in good company!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 5 April 2018 10:15:20 AM
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diver dan,

The issue of the article was Jesus Christ's resurrection and not John Calvin and the burning of witches. Why don't you write an article on that topic for On Line Opinion?

Thus, your response with this emphasis was a red herring fallacy.
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 5 April 2018 12:58:46 PM
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diver dan,

"King Henry VIII presided over the burning of witches at the rate of 3.25 PA. John Calvin is in good company!" was your statement.

That's a poisoning the well fallacy. See: http://www.softschools.com/examples/fallacies/poisoning_the_well_examples/501/

You engaged in this erroneous reasoning by providing negative information about Calvin and the burning of witches. Then you associated this burning of witches with King Henry VIII's doing the same thing. Negative information about Calvin was presented to try to discredit the argument by association with the King's same kinds of actions.

However, introducing this topic had nothing whatsoever to do with the article's thrust of examination of Jesus' resurrection, so in addition you committed a red herring.

So that we can have a rational conversation, I recommend that you quit the use of logical fallacies.
Posted by OzSpen, Thursday, 5 April 2018 10:04:55 PM
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//Halal certification was not the topic of this article. Why don't you write a piece with that focus?//

//Why don't you write an article for On Line Opinion: 'Why Christianity is a religious myth promoted by dim-witted theists'?//

//Why don't you write an article on that topic for On Line Opinion?//

Why don't you write an article for On Line Opinion on the subject of why suggesting that people write an article for On Line Opinion does not, and never can, constitute a sound rebuttal of any argument?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 6 April 2018 6:36:01 AM
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Toni Lavis,

If you had read the statements you quoted in context, you would know that I suggested these articles, not as rebuttals, but as responses to posters who dish up red herrings.

Halal certification, for example, had absolutely nothing to do with the Easter celebration of Jesus' death and resurrection. Neither did the ad hominem fallacy of labelling believers as 'dim-witted "theists"'.

I've already presented some rebuttals in other posts.
Posted by OzSpen, Friday, 6 April 2018 10:01:46 AM
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A far cry from the scene where Moses comes down from the mount carrying the ten commandments scratched out on a couple of rocks later being known as 'tablets' and by the time Hollywood finished they became finely crafted chiselled pieces of stone.
Anyone happen to have these verified 'tablets' to which half of humanity has waged war on the other half espousing to follow those same commandments.
A planet of morons not knowing how to wipe their backsides but professing to know 'Gods" wishes, but don't have his address or telephone no
Posted by Special Delivery, Saturday, 7 April 2018 6:10:55 PM
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Now lets see. People of Jewish descent have won 41% of all Nobel prizes in economics, 28% in medicine, 26% in physics,19% in chemistry and the list goes on and on. These people make up less than 2% of worlds population. Muslims make up 23% of worlds population and have 12 individuals who have received nobel prizes. It is obvious that ignorance like that displayed by sd and other Israel haters is their dislike for the God of Israel. Jew hating is usually Jew jealousy by people full of ignorance.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 7 April 2018 7:41:52 PM
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//Now lets see. People of Jewish descent have won 41% of all Nobel prizes in economics, 28% in medicine, 26% in physics,19% in chemistry and the list goes on and on. These people make up less than 2% of worlds population.//

The Icelandic people, per capita, have one more Nobel Prizes than any race on Earth. Obviously Odin loves his children more than Jehovah. Praise be to the All-Father.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 7 April 2018 8:35:33 PM
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Special Delivery,

I'm not aware of any archaeological finds that have uncovered specifically the tablets on which the 10 Commandments were written.

However, archaeologists regularly uncover material that confirms the reliability of OT and NT. Here is one recent example:

"Now for the first time, one hundred and ten, 2,500 year old Babylonian tablets have been discovered in Iraq which provide a glimpse of Jewish life in Babylonian exile. Put simply, the tablets corroborate the Biblical tale. They describe a town called Al-Yahudu i.e., “the village of the Jews”, by the river Chebar, mentioned in Ezekiel 1:1. They also attest to Judaic names such as “Gedalyahu”, “Hanan”, “Dana”, “Shaltiel” and a man with the same name as Israel’s current Prime Minister, “Netanyahu”. The “yahu” ending to these names is called “theophoric”, meaning, they attest to a belief in the God of the Torah, by including part of God’s name in people’s personal names. The tablets also record everyday business transactions and witness to the Jewish return to Jerusalem (Nehemiah 6:15-16), as commemorated in personal names such as “Yashuv Zadik”, meaning, “the righteous shall return [to Zion]” (2,500 Year Old Jewish Tablets Discovered in Iraq, 2017), at: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/simcha-jacobovici/2500-year-old-jewish-tabl_b_6579996.html

Jesus included the content of the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) so there is no need to wait for the tablets of the 10 Commandments to be found. The NT has been demonstrated over and over by scholars to be a reliable document. See Craig Blomberg, "The Historical Reliability of the Gospels".

Your put down of believers by calling them a planet of morons who can't wipe ... and don't know God's address or phone number, is an Ad Hominem (Abusive) fallacy. It displays your fallacious reasoning. See: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/1/Ad_Hominem_Abusive
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 7 April 2018 8:57:34 PM
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'Jesus included the content of the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7'
So you would have me believe that in a day and age where an education is virtually a given, a person is incapable of passing on a message in the same day exactly as he /she received it, that one is able to remember verbatim that which occurred but wasn't there, but was able to say Matthew recorded it on papyrus from Office Works, about something that happened at least a century before?
Excuse me but I have to tend to my flying camels......and if you see Matthew.... say 'hello from me.
Posted by Special Delivery, Sunday, 8 April 2018 2:57:16 AM
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Special Delivery,

Sadly, this is another dumping of your presuppositions in this forum's comments. I encourage you to deal with the evidence I presented and not serve up another red herring.

We can't have a reasonable discussion when you do this.
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 8 April 2018 8:00:38 AM
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//Halal certification, for example, had absolutely nothing to do with the Easter celebration of Jesus' death and resurrection.//

Neither did whining about people buying confectionery, which was how you commenced your article and what Shadow was responding to in his post.

//Neither did the ad hominem fallacy of labelling believers as 'dim-witted "theists"'.//

That's not an ad hominem fallacy, that's just an insult, you vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous pervert. Can't you tell the difference? This video might help clear things up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE

Stupid git.

//I encourage you to deal with the evidence I presented//

What evidence? You never presented any bloody evidence in the first place; just a lot of whining about postmodernism with the hastily tacked-on conclusion that if postmodernism is bunk, then the Bible must be true and Jesus must have been a zombie. You don't expect non-sequiturs like that to persuade anyone, do you? [rhetorical]

//Luke "carefully investigated everything from the beginning", as any competent researcher would do (Luke 1:1-4).//

So the the Gospel of Luke is reliable because the Gospel of Luke says the Gospel of Luke is reliable? [rhetorical]

Do you know what question-begging means, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings? [not rhetorical]

//However, archaeologists regularly uncover material that confirms the reliability of OT and NT. Here is one recent example:

"Now for the first time, one hundred and ten, 2,500 year old Babylonian tablets have been discovered in Iraq which provide a glimpse of Jewish life in Babylonian exile. Put simply, the tablets corroborate the Biblical tale. They describe a town called Al-Yahudu i.e., “the village of the Jews”, by the river Chebar, mentioned in Ezekiel 1:1.//

Text-book Spider-Man fallacy:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The%20Spiderman%20Fallacy

//We can't have a reasonable discussion when you do this.//

Then you should knock it off. After all, you're being fallacious:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:The_Debater_Debacle
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 8 April 2018 10:11:49 AM
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Toni,

So you say of this, "You never presented any bloody evidence in the first place".

"Now for the first time, one hundred and ten, 2,500 year old Babylonian tablets have been discovered in Iraq which provide a glimpse of Jewish life in Babylonian exile. Put simply, the tablets corroborate the Biblical tale. They describe a town called Al-Yahudu i.e., “the village of the Jews”, by the river Chebar, mentioned in Ezekiel 1:1. They also attest to Judaic names such as “Gedalyahu”, “Hanan”, “Dana”, “Shaltiel” and a man with the same name as Israel’s current Prime Minister, “Netanyahu”. The “yahu” ending to these names is called “theophoric”, meaning, they attest to a belief in the God of the Torah, by including part of God’s name in people’s personal names. The tablets also record everyday business transactions and witness to the Jewish return to Jerusalem (Nehemiah 6:15-16), as commemorated in personal names such as “Yashuv Zadik”, meaning, “the righteous shall return [to Zion]” (2,500 Year Old Jewish Tablets Discovered in Iraq, 2017), at: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/simcha-jacobovici/2500-year-old-jewish-tabl_b_6579996.html".

We can't have a responsible conversation when you carry on like this.

Bye, bye!
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 8 April 2018 5:51:26 PM
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//"Now for the first time, one hundred and ten, 2,500//

I already addressed your stupid little Spider-Man fallacy in my last post, you daft twat. I guess you don't read so good, huh?

//We can't have a responsible conversation when you carry on like this.//

When I carry on like this? Not going to take any responsibility for your own ridiculous carrying on, then? Jesus mate, Matthew 7:5: sort yourself out before you bag anyone else.

//Bye, bye!//

Catch ya on the flipside.

Worst Christian apologist ever.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 8 April 2018 9:08:57 PM
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I'm not into celebrating religious mumbo-jumbo be it cross-nailing or res-erections.

I'm a chocolate addict, but had to limit my intake a few years ago due to allergy problems, ho hum.

At Easter I git meeself a block of good ol' Cadbury's Diary Milk (none of that Nestle's muck for me) to eat over Easter and some red'n'bloody snags to barbeburn on Good Friday.

PS: Give me an Easter Bunny to roast any day. Yummoy!!
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 8 April 2018 9:27:46 PM
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Special Delivery,

You made this pejorative comment about Christianity or those who believe in God: "A planet of morons not knowing how to wipe their backsides but professing to know 'Gods" wishes, but don't have his address or telephone no".

Could you please help me to understand what motivates this kind of antagonism to theists?

Have you had bad experiences with individual Christians, churches or some other religious group? Is it too harsh to say that you have some "hate" of these people?

I'd appreciate if you could help me to understand where this heat is coming from.
Posted by OzSpen, Tuesday, 10 April 2018 12:13:23 AM
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//I'd appreciate if you could help me to understand where this heat is coming from.//

Heat is energy that is transferred from a warmer substance or object to a cooler one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 10 April 2018 10:38:09 AM
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Toni,

<<Heat is energy that is transferred from a warmer substance or object to a cooler one.>>

That's avoidance and tells me nothing concerning the origin of your anti-Christian heat.

Rhetorical heat involves the use of rhetorical devices designed to powerfully affect listeners or readers. Seems to me those heat inducing rhetorical devices are being used by you.

hs.pequannock.org/ourpages/auto/2014/6/4/36955172/Rhetoricaldevices.ppt
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 22 April 2018 6:11:58 PM
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//That's avoidance//

Nope, it's thermodynamics. Can't tell the difference? Yeah, I'm not surprised.

//and tells me nothing concerning the origin of your anti-Christian heat.//

It's produced by the slow-combustion of pamphlets from evangelical door-knockers. They're always happy to give you as many as you want for free (presumably because nobody else wants them), so it's a great way to save on heating costs.

//Rhetorical heat involves the use of rhetorical devices designed to powerfully affect listeners or readers.//

Rhetorical heat, eh? Well that's a new one. And what an appallingly stupid turn of phrase that is. What's wrong with using the word 'rhetoric' to mean rhetoric? My gods, the torturous depravations that people inflict on the English language just want to make you want to weep sometimes.

//Seems to me those heat inducing rhetorical devices are being used by you.//

Um, yeah. Of course I use rhetoric. Who doesn't use rhetoric? You're not trying to claim that you don't rely on rhetoric, are you?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 22 April 2018 9:52:31 PM
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