Dear JP,

I don't know whether Determinism or Free Will is valid. However, the laws of physics as currently understood do not support Determinism. Two of the greatest discoveries in physics in modern times are statistical mechanics and quantum mechanics. Both support a probabilistic rather than a deterministic universe

if people are to blinded by irationality that God exist it is even easier to see by human behaviour that the devil exist. No one could be as evil as to murder the unborn without the devils help could they?

david f

My (very limited) understanding is that statistical and quantum mechanics only have an influence at the micro level and Newtonian mechanics, which is deterministic, is what operates in everyday life.

More importantly though, that issue seems rather irrelevant to the primary matter under consideration. To have free will requires that human beings have some degree of control over what they do. If for whatever reason – be it due to statistical, quantum or Newtonian mechanics or whatever – humans have no control over what they think, do, and say, then they have no free will.

If there is no free will then things happen solely as a consequence of the laws of physics operating on atoms. In those circumstances we would not meaningfully communicate with one another on the basis of reason. We would just produce uncontrolled static and any apparent communication would be just an illusion.

Do you think that we are meaningfully communicating with one another now? I think we are. If so, then we must be in control of what we are writing and if that is true then there must be something more in this universe (and in us in particular) than just atoms that enables us to control what we do. There must be something other than, greater than, matter, something “super”natural in us. Perhaps this is what the soul is, does.

Planets communicate with their sun. " Just going around to the left a bit." "OK not too fast , you know it upsets the atoms ". "What atoms?" " Oh you know , gravity waves, isomers , time-warp , quantum leaps" . "no.."

To Yuyutsu,

[We are up against the limitations of the human mind.
How can we speak of "the reality of God" when there is no reality but God!? The more I try to say, the more I find myself speechless.]

There's a difference between acknowledging God, and understanding Him. Atheists don't acknowledge God, don't believe God is real. That isn't a deep perspective of what is real or a deeper perspective of what God is. It is a lack of acknowledgement. Honestly, I don't know why your defending the idea of atheism when you also believe in a concept of God.

[When taking food we say: "God is the eater, god is the eaten, God is the process of eating".
Realness is nothing but God, existence is nothing but God - and it's not an exaggeration to say that atheists too are God.]

Ok, we'll have to disagree on what God is. But for the moment let's ignore that and consider your view of God. If God is everything (both the eater, the eaten, and the process to eat), then your right that atheists also are part of that everything that God is. But that doesn't mean that their conclusions of God not existing is correct. They can still be in error and believe something that isn't true.

Does that make more sence?

As to our different views of God, one thing that we both probabley agree on is that God is greater then us and incomprehensible to a large degree. But where you would say that God is everything and that Existance is dependent on God; I would say that indeed everything is dependent on God, but God is not everything. He is the creator and sustainer of everything, but He is Holy and seperate. This is a different view then from God being the universal force, or if Him being a pandemic God. Though it shares the belief that everything comes from God, and only exist because God allows it.

Dear JP,

I think you are correct. Free will/Determinism is irrelevant to the laws of physics. I was arguing with a believer in determinism who incorrectly brought in the laws of physics. He assumed that matter behaved in a deterministic matter all the way down the atomic level. That is not your argument. He then resorted to the appeal to authority by pointing out eminent and bright people who believed in determinism.

Hume said reason is the slave of the passions. We are driven by irrational motivations and then use our reason to justify or explain our acts.

I don’t know whether we are meaningfully communicating. However, I think it takes a leap of faith which I haven’t made to accept the last three sentences of your post. I have no reason to think there is such a thing as a soul or a supernatural of any sort. The fact you believe you are meaningfully communicating I don’t think means that you are in control.