//Usually the theists I debate have either left by now started hurling insults anyway.//

He already has, AJ.

//Toni Lavis. I don't trust you. But you seem to be begging for attention. Here is my standard.//

Playing the man rather than the ball? Well I suppose that is a standard, but I think you're setting the bar rather low.

//1). Arguments don't rely on creatively insulting an opposing view. (Neither directly nor indirectly insulting them).//

Correct: they rely on their substance, not their rhetoric.

There's naught wrong with rhetoric - even robust rhetoric - but at the end of the day, it's of little relevance when critically evaluating the strength of an argument.

//2). Enough of the obfuscating of your points//

Obfuscating my points? Christ, I must be doing something wrong. I thought I was a fairly plain-speaking sort of chap. I rather thought that that was most of the reason you're so upset. Which points do you think I've obfuscated?

//and having bait and switch arguments.//

Oh yes? Which ones were those then?

Do you think it's a bait & switch if I say I admire some of Jesus's teachings, but then go onto say that I reject some of the dogmas preached by various Christian denominations, or reject the idea of omnibenevolent god on the basis of the available evidence?

Because I disagree that any bait & switch is involved there, and would suggest that your perception of me having pulled a fast one arises from your misconception that anybody who admires even one small aspect of Christianity necessarily accepts the whole, and vice versa.

//If you have no real points without whining that you're being insulted//

GOTO 1)

//or that the other person is avoiding the points that you never made clear//

I don't care if you avoid my arguments - you've been making a concerted effort do so for some time now. That's OK: you're free to rebut or ignore as you see fit. But if you attack strawmen, rebut arguments I haven't made but you have mistakenly interpreted me as having made, or otherwise misrepresent my positions, then I will correct you. And if I believe that your attacks on strawmen are disingenuous rather than an honest mistake, I will be quite harsh in my rebuke.

Perhaps it might be best to read my posts carefully to see what they actually say rather than what you think they should say, and if something isn't clear then ask for clarification.

//you have no real points.//

Aside from all the ones you're going to such pains to avoid that you'd prefer to write a detailed and considered ad hominem attack over a brief and pithy rebuttal of even one of my arguments.

//Until then, I see no point for me to address anything you say.//

Well of course there's no point....

Nevertheless, if you're going to post crap then I am likely to post some sort of rebuttal, because crap annoys me.

And some advice: you should ask a certain poster by the name of 'Armchair Critic' just how effective ad hominems are at dissuading me from rebutting crap. He's considerably more robust in his rhetoric than yourself... hasn't worked so far :P

Mind you, I must give credit where credit is due: it was a nice attempt to segue the discussion away from the arguments being but forward and into a pointless name calling session.

And you did manage to divert me for a full two posts - not bad for a novice.

But at the end of the day, the rhetoric is irrelevant.

So perhaps now we could get back to some substantial discussion. Or not.

To Yuyutsu.

[You raised many interesting points in your other post. God willing, I will find the time to address them later.]

I'll look forward to it. Thanks also for answering about miracles and Angels from a Hindu understanding. I agree with the thought to focus on God. But I also think that miracles or any spiritual experience with God is good to validate against one's doubts. Expecially in today's world where there's so much philosophy to believe in whatever feels good, or philosophy to doubt everything. Having something substantial as a foundation is worth while. Thanks again.

To AJ Phillips.

[I would be fascinated to hear how the teachings of Jesus negate the fact that the Christian god would be an absolute monster.]

I'll try. In general I think a skewed view of God and His teachings fuel a skewed hatred towards him. Going to what is actually said and taught hopefully can clear up the confusion.

[There are countless explanations for this,]

I can relate. I've got a large number of experiences where I wonder if something is due to God or due to something else. I also see people hold to something to be from God, karma, or "the universe" that also holds the same amounts in of questionable doubt. Because of these I cherish are experiences that hold more validity to them that. Whether they are my experiences or another's, it's encouraging. Who knows, maybe God did allow you the chance to date that girl. Maybe it was your confidence after praying.

[The freaky co-incidences did make more sense, however, when I learned of confirmation bias and the line of research Toni has mentioned.]

Not all co-incidences fit the bill of confirmation bias. Most of the examples I gave were a surprise to me when they happened.

(Continued)

Regarding potential contempt for your experiences you said:

[I don’t think you have.]

I had mentioned doubt when you mentioned you having experiences. So
I understand if you would be reluctant to share any examples. Thank you for giving one example. I appreciate it.

Regarding where the conversation should go, I asked mostly because you mentioned the course it is currently taking is wasting your time. If that is the case I'm ok with changing gears before all things are addressed. We are coming from two very different paradigms. Me I see that God has complete control over the world, and from there look for understanding in both faith, and regarding the state of the world. Yours on the other hand somehow misses that God exists at all, and instead you are surrounded by ideas that assist rejecting the possibility of God.

I've pointed this out to you before, but even this observation you disagreed with. I understand if you feel it's a waste of time. I'm starting to wonder if I should have started with bible verses and teaching from what I understand instead of trying to convince anyone that God is real. His words and His understanding is worth more then my understanding and experiences.

[That’s up to you. I think I provided plenty to respond to in my last post. How about exploring some objective evidence for God? Personal experiences are too subjective and the subjective is never very reliable. ]

What I gave you is what I have to offer for evidence that is outside of the bible. I'm going to move on. Sorry if I'm not addressing some of your points. I thought experience was a more objective aspect then paradoxes and philosophical arguments though.

In my first lesson, I talked about God's love in three of Jesus's teachings. 1). God loves a sinner and celebrates when they come back to Him. 2) God loves all the faithful equally and will provide for them without favoritism. 3) God's love is protective. Do not actively try to do harm to another, or to lead them astray.

Keep those three application of love and consider them when reading the Sermon on the Mount.

For reference I'll be following along the sermon on the mountian in Mathew 5-7, and a similar sermon in Luke 6, along with verses in few other places as well. It will take several posts to get through it all. And I'm going to try and address some critisms from a blog AJ Phillips directed me to. First a section of the lesson then the critisms that
I have something to say about. That'll be my approach. Hope it's not confusing.
_____________

In Mathew, Jesus taught 8 things for people being blessed. Those who are poor in Spirit, because theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who mourn, because they will be comforted. Those who are meek, because they will inherit the earth. Those who hunger and thirst for rightousness, because they will be filled. The merciful because they'll be shown mercy. The pure in Heart, because they will see God. The peacemakers, because they will be called children of God. Those who are persecuted because of rightousness, theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Jesus even explains that if you are insulted, perscuted or slandered and lied about, any of those things because of following Jesus. Then even then you are blessed, because that is how the prophets were also perscuted.