Fellow Human,
It is good to hear from you again. I’ve missed your insights into all this nonsense.

So, what’s the answer to the modernisation aspect of Islam? I understand the government are talking about promoting locally raised imams, etc. I wasn’t aware that we didn’t have any. Is this a recent thing due to the recency of greater Islamic immigration? Or just a practice to bring the religious leaders in? Please don’t take this as a sly attack. I would be the first to be open about my feelings. I am just curious. And please, would you mind dropping into the feminism thread? I’d like your take on the current comments over there…

BD, once again, you raise the wrong question. Would you be suspicious or slighted if a vegetarian refused to eat your beef? Or a vegan refused to eat anything other than the vegies? It’s a silly argument to say “you don’t do as I do, so I have a right to be suspicious”. I don’t eat fish – what does that give rise to? I must be an Atlantean. Watch out! He’s obviously here to take over all the land! Your problem is that you see Christianity as the ‘true’ path of the righteous. And you are afraid to accept that it is not the only path. That just might weaken your arguments against a hell of a lot of your other beliefs.

Hi Reason,

I believe there are local and foreign imams but I guess the need for local imams similar to the US and parts of Europe is the increase of new muslims from local communities. New Aussie or American muslims do not need the middle east conflict history but need the spirituality of the religion. That will also combat the politicisation of the religion.

I did a lot of thinking on the modernisation and there is at least a 10 steps plan in my mind but in summary, the starting points will be:

- Have a single source of information for all muslims rather than each community have their own imam. Imams should come up with an education plan of topics and issues to address nation building. These involve modern day issues either spiritual or worldly (ie views on body parts donation for example).
- Have an organised media plan to address the islamophobia and ‘non-aglo’ phobia in general among average Australians. I have seen few Australian corporate (Including public companies) who still have an ‘Anglo only’ employment policy.
- Create a nation building harmony day event where people will go out share food and say hello to a local neighbour, open the place of worship and compete in the good of nation building.
- Create a nation building / harmony program (ie TV, Radio and Internet, construction projects) where groups can compete for charity, restoring an old school, greening a suburb or a street, etc
(We are a little behind the US in the strength of the sense of community).

As for the feminism thread, I guess I see all people as just people: I am for humanism and moderation. Feminism and other groups are good when they fight for equal rights and recognition but when anything moves out of balance becomes extremism which turns into a cult like anti-humanism. I have no opinion on the homo sexual part of the thread.

Regards
AK

Fellow human, you appear to be a reasonable person, explain a few things for me.

Why is it that the most muslim owned businesses will not employ non muslims.

Why is it that more than 80-90% of muslims that wear religious clothing are on welfare.

Why, against all medical and scientific data, that states that 97% of muslim women wearing body covering, have many vitamin D deficiencies, causing rickets, osteoporosis and a growing list of ailments that also are effecting their unborn.

Why does you religion promote and in the most part enforce these unhealthy practises.

Regarding modernisation of islam. In the past, the christian faiths forced body coverings on sections of their communities and followers. However they realised in the last 50 years that the subversion of those that professed to be of the faith, was just turning the people away.

Except for within their places of worship it is rare for them to wear their religious clothing and paraphernalia. This has reduced the disdain that the average person had for them and has made their fallacies more acceptable and less confrontational.

If Islam is a good religion and desires to become a more accepted part of our culture, why don't they become modern and do away with these socially unhealthy practices. This would see Australians more accepting and likely to be interested.

Why are muslim women not allowed to talk to men when they are covered, this is but a form of suppression and an insult to Australian males, especially in business. It is disgusting that they just leave their purchase and walk out of a shop when they can't be served by a women.

As long as your religion continues in this vane, you deserve to be looked upon as repressive, dictatorial and evil.

Why is your religion fighting within itself, all around the world.

Understand, I don't condone what has happened in Iraq. I am of the firm belief that Howard, Bush and Blair are war criminals as well as all those that supported them in their actions in Iraq.

Alchemist,
I suggest you only ask one question at a time so it reduces the chance of option choice in answering.

By the way the war in Afganistan is about the Taliban resistance to modernisation of Islam also the war in Iraq is about Sunni resistance to modernisations of Islam to become acceptable to Western society. That is why the West is there to allow these people their right to live rather than be driven out as refugees. So I suggest you clarify your position on whose side you are on in this war. Do you want modernisation or orthodox adherence to shari'ah. You cannot have the Taliban and Sunni and expect modernisation. You cannot have it both ways!

FELLOW HUMAN

Good :) but my meat would be standard roast beef. The early Christians agreed that they desist from immorality, idolatry and BLOOD. i.e. the issue with blood was its use in idolatrous worship, (drinking it I think). The cows are hung upside down (stunned I think but not dead) then the throat is cut, bleeding them.

Your problem with eating beef slaughtered, should be the issue of connection with idol worship, not whether it has a few molecules of blood in it, which I GUARANTEE Kosher meat does have :) So, a molecule is 'some' k..... don't be imprisoned in a ritualistic lockup dude. Jesus will set you FREEEEEEE Halelujah

If only you knew how much I desire to visit the Holy Land.. (still jealous but coping :)

Ash, put on your list "Adjusting attire to retain modesty but be more compatable to Australian culture" (black burka's are soooo 'in ur face' and unacceptable to me)

Now, HADITH, while I accept 'your' understanding of them as 'stories' etc, you also need to bear in mind that so much of Islamic law is based on them, not just the Quran. So, they are a valid target for non Muslims criticising the religion. In any case, the all time worst atrocity (Banu Qurayza) is alluded to in the Quran also as u know.
Its just that you see some 'legal code' issue there, while I see mass murder.

REASON.. trust you in your rather confined thinking mode to suggest I might be "suspicious" of FellowHuman if he didn't eat my food.. for crying out loud.. u are a worry sometimes.

I hereby send you to an un-named Asian country for 3 weeks 'cultural familiary' to remove your rather parochial views on many things :)

My point, (seems I have to spell it out) was that bridging the gap between Muslims and Non Muslims could start at the dinner table. I'm constantly being criticized for 'what are u DOING to improve relations'.. when I do, I'm attacked for 'being suspicious'.

Fellow_Human,

They sure are ganging up on you here!! Hang in there!

Anyway, thank you for your comments. You are right, it's not a religious debate. I prefer history and logic.

The fallacy of your point is that the Hadiths are almost universially accepted by Muslims. Heaven knows there are probably millions of stories and quotes from them on Islamic sites. Even if you don't accept them nothing changes, because a billion Muslims think otherwise.

Of course, if you want to throw out the verses that bother you, you must throw out all the Hadiths - and there goes 80-90% of Islamic history, practices, jurisprudence and tradition out the window. Of course, the Koran states it is itself clear, easy to understand and complete, but even so people can't figure it out. A contradiction, for sure, but even I, a non-Muslim, see the Hadiths as fundamental to understand the Koran and practice Islam.

Lets say, for the sake of arguement, that the verses about torture are false. Don't matter. The followers of the prophet who lived and even knew him, were aware of these verses and it didn't matter to them. The stories about raids, executions, slavery and torture by Mohammud have been in Islamic writings for hundreds of years and they have never bothered Muslims. That tells you alot about the religion.

And last, even if you throw out the Hadiths, and ignore the fact that Muslims ignore the facts of torture, you still have the many problem verses in the Koran advocating killing, violence and discrimination. Another example: Consider the moral implications of a verse in which a man says you can freely have sex with your females slaves. There are about 4 things there that are totally unacceptable there for me. I cannot imagine how anyone could justify that statement. Can you?

See, the problem runs very deep. Muslims just don't want to think about it because they know they won't like the answer.

Take care.

John