"Our indigenous peoples didn't have the understanding to save their culture against the might of the European christians and their wrathful god. Australians of today, know what religion can do to a culture, that is why they are objecting."
Posted by The alchemist, Monday, 22 August 2005 4:58:23 PM

If this quote by Alchemist is truly about protecting a "national culture" (one that ontinues to deny its own appropriations of privilege and power from critical scrutiny) how can you possibly tout cultural protection with any real integrity?

In some historical contexts this statement has some validity,(Darwinian social theories aside) but lets remember that these same "Australians" who suddenly want to apply an "understanding of cultural death" won't support contemporary calls by Aboriginal peoples to Rights to cultural heritage, land and justice. so this is a very disingenuous claim.

The hysterical screams by right wingers after the 1992 Mabo decision are still ringing in my ear. The death of "Australian culture' was repeatedly used by Stone and others who smuggle up together to comfort each other from invading aliens. It a deep seated paranoia in white Australia's cultural psyche that is simply embarrassing to more enlightened.

13 years later nothing has really changed, only poor Muslims are now in the 'spot light' for being 'culturally difference, peculiar and unnecessary to a "great Australian project" that no one seems able to precisely explain.

PS : I always get a giggle from that phrase ‘Our indigenous people’..Fruedian slip or what?

ALCHEMIST... in all seriousness, I'm detecting a very deep level of pain and or hurt in your life, possibly due to someone you respected or loved who betrayed you. Someone who was also supposed to epitomise the values and love of Christ... I don't say this with any sarcasm, but your comment in the other thread.. here is the opportunity (again) jdrmot@tpg.com.au <== I know a cry for help when I see one.

IRFAN.. I heard you on radio today.. nice voice man :) be assured, Muslims like you should not feel threatened by what most of us are advocating. But again, in all seriousness, if you want the community to be accepted, there are some VERY important running sores which need to be addressed.

1/ ISLAMIC PRAYER HALL of Baulkam Hills which used the courts to STOMP ON the community sentiment. (anyone who thinks people will forget THAT is living in cloud cuckoo land)

2/ The CATCH THE FIRE supression of free speech case. Admittedly this was probably the best thing for the Christian church for decades :) but at the same time, should never have happened.

3/ Various LEGAL INROADS which give the Islamic community 'special treatment. (Stamp duty laws, burial laws, emergency service procedures)

4/ So called ISLAMIC DRESS, it would be very nice if we did not get 'in your face' Islam with the extreme difference in clothing. I absolutely believe that clothing could be selected which served the purpose which looked less 'different' to the basic types we wear.
Irfan.. isn't religion a matter of the INSIDE.. not the outside ?

5/ INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: 30% unemployment among Muslims. Why ? DUE TO the abovementioned examples of 'in your face' and 'our culture or no culture' kind of thing, we employers would NEVER want someone who is going to want time off to pray during worktime, or want friday off for the same reason. They can fit in with OUR break times or don't bother working.

I'm just being honest. Not meant to sound hateful.

I don't know what to say Rainer, your religion sure makes you angry. You are certainly wrong about my views, but your are not wrong about John Stone and his.

You have no idea of my relationship, understanding, or my views regarding the original Australians. If you are referring to me as one “these same "Australians" who suddenly want to apply an "understanding of cultural death" won't support contemporary calls by Aboriginal peoples to Rights to cultural heritage, land and justice. so this is a very disingenuous claim.” then you are very sad person.

My reference to Australian culture was with regard to it consisting a lot of different cultures, that make us what we are, I didn't say it was good or bad, thats our culture and it will change, as it should. Maybe you don't understand the difference between a social culture and a religious culture. Or your religion may stop you.

Except for animism, I see all religion as wrong in its intent and its practise. If you had read some of my other posts elswhere, you will know of a small part of my feelings and relationships with those that have lived here for an eternity. I know that their cultures would improve our understanding of the right way to treat the land, as well as help give them back some of what they have lost.

For me, the survial of both their culture, their way of life and themsleves should be one of the highest priority in the country. If you think that is condesending, then nothing will help you. I am at least trying to do bring it out. What are you doing, except misunderstanding and ranting.

And for your information, my ancestors who were not criminals or free settlers, but were forcibly transported to this country because of their culture. Like all the religious, you always get it wrong when anyone you determine doesn't agree with your blinkered views.

You are just like the Stones of the world, just go by another name and ism.

"Some conservatives find it impossible to accept that non-Christian religions can teach values consistent with the allegedly Christian values of mainstream Australia..." Make that "Islam", not just any religion.

So Mr. Yusuf, what do you say about a man that cannot bring himself to condem a slaver, murdurer and torturer? I don't think most "Christians" or even "non-Christians" would have much trouble doing this, but somehow when it comes to Muslims being honest about the man they call "prophet" they suddenly become silent. On three separate occasions I have given you references from Islamic sources on the evil deeds done by Mohammud, and I have asked you if the man who did this was a "good" person, and you have ignored me (at least I consider cutting off hands and feet, putting hot nails in eyes and then letting the victim die of thirst to be evil.... maybe you don't!). I could give other references of other horrible actions, but that one has an easy link.

This is why Muslims are not to be trusted. This is why Islam is an evil religion. If even "moderate' and 'liberal' Muslims cannot condemn a man who tortured and killed so many times then why should anyone assume they have any respect for so-called "Western" values, or they can live in peace with non-Muslims. Think it through, folks, if their dear leader killed, raped and tortured (according to their own writings), and he is, according to Muslims, a "great example", well, figure it out yourself.

I have nothing but contempt for Islam. At its core, it is a religion of anger, hate, and violence. No amount of sugar coating can hide this. Any country that accepts Muslims is insane - Islam is a cancer. Look what it has done to Muslim-dominated countries. Look at the problems that Muslim immigrants everywhere take with them to their new countries. Check out what Islam is doing to Europe. I suggest:
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/ and http://blog.bearstrong.net/ and http://www.peaktalk.com/

Think about it. The facts are clear.

So, Mr Yusef, how about an answer?

John, aka, Kactuzkid

Ranier,

Just this once. I don’t regard this forum as a chat room and I will not criticise the opinion of other posters no matter how much I disagree with them. Let's leave the criticism for the contributors like Yusuf and others who have a stake in trying to persuade us to their way of thinking. That’s what they are for: without them there would be no forum where interested people could express their opinions.

You know full well what I mean by average Australian, Ranier. They are also called the ‘silent majority’, and they have opinions but never express them. They are made use of by politicians – hence we get the governments THEY deserve because they make up the majority, and voting is the only time they even think about democracy, and even then they vote for the ‘same old same old’ as a duty and not a hard won right. If they don’t get a jolt soon, they won’t even be doing that. Because of these average Australians (they are like average citizens all over the world), politicians were able to slip ‘multiculturalism’ in without consultation. They will sell off Telstra without hearing what the average Australian really wants. They sold off the electricity supply in SA after telling us they would not. Given time and space for a list, I think we would all be horrified at the number of things brought in without consultation with the people because Mr. & Mrs. Average have been too disinterested, frightened or whatever to stand up and shout. All they allow us to do is periodically get one of two elected dictatorships who can virtually do as they wish for 3 or 4 years.

Average citizens don’t have their rights spelled out to them because it is not in the interest of politicians to do so. And it is probably not in Irfan Yusuf’s interests, either. It behoves Yusuf and the pro-multiculturalists to give them a chance to speak if they want the real truth.

Regards

Leigh

I don’t know any “average Australians” of the type you describe – silent, resentful dupes “made use of” by politicians and occasionally electing “dictatorships” “as a duty”. If we really lived in a dictatorship, what do you think would happen to you and I and almost all other posters and writers on this forum and site?

If the silent majority “never express” their opinions, how can you even be certain that they have opinions, let alone claim to know what those opinions are?

It seems to me most people who invoke the phrase “silent majority” almost always assume that these taciturn masses share their own ideology, and that this endorsement is proof that their shared opinions are correct, and all opposing views wrong.

Logically, even if most people hold an opinion, that does not necessarily make it correct, authoritative or beyond dispute – especially if the "silent majority" really is as dull-witted and apathetic as you describe.

In my experience, Australians are a much more lively, diverse, competent, engaged and opinionated bunch than you give them credit for. And the evidence generally suggests that most of them support multiculturalism –

http://sbs.com.au/media/2872SBS_Living_Diversity.pdf
http://www.newspoll.com.au/cgi-bin/display_poll_data.pl