The only mindless vortex on display here is inherent in this bottom of the barrel risible rubbish, merely masquerading as a (very feeble) attempt at patent propaganda!
Alan B.

Anyone who loves Israel should help it by recognising a Palestinian state whose borders are precisely between Israel's pre-1967 borders and the current respective borders of Egypt and Jordan.

(conversely, anyone who hates Israel and wishes it to rot away, should encourage its occupation and the Jewish settlers)

In the words of the Dylan song Dave,'the times they are a changing' the Land,Water & everything else grab,the Settler/IDF murders of Palestinians,the local in OZ & in Israel,propaganda campaign against Journalists who go there & have the temerity to tell the truth.
The Illegal building in the West bank, the constant imposition of Apartheid, removing People from places they have lived in for yrs in Jerusalem, Tick,Tick Tick,Dave
As for your mythical justification for Greater Israel the Bible most of it was made up

'Hate' is a very strong word requiring a great deal of energy.
An individual who has no emotive connection to either side will tend to go with the underdog which in this case is the Palestinians who lived on the land for many centuries.
I have no intention of going in to what 'God said or did' simply because he/she didn't say it to me and I'm not about to go on hearsay.
The reality is that there are people who are being disadvantaged through no fault of their own and are entitled to live as they always have.
To my mind the West had no right to promise what wasn't theirs and or to aid and abet the subjugation of an established society.
You're judged by your actions, and the act of displacing the indigenous of the day was wrong for whatever reason is claimed.

Dear Ilmessaggio,

«An individual who has no emotive connection to either side will tend to go with the underdog which in this case is the Palestinians who lived on the land for many centuries.»

Appreciated.

However, just because the Palestinians are the underdog does not mean that at this particular point in time, having their own state would be to their benefit. I believe that the ordinary Palestinian would suffer under their own regime even more than they currently suffer under Israeli rule.

We both seem to want and recognise a Palestinian state, but for different reasons: I love Israel and would like it to be healed from its extreme nationalism, militarism and violent attitudes caused by its occupation of those cursed territories. You one the other hand, seem to be influenced by the propaganda of interested parties who have no real concern for the average Palestinian.

Thank you for defining my thoughts as you wish them to be....you were informed from the outset that 'hate' requires energy, emotive energy but energy nevertheless and in both cases the energy is used irrationally.
I desire a Rolls Royce and the fellow down the street has one in his garage. I go down to his garage and take the Rolls Royce. The Rolls Royce is now in my possession. The neighborhood is upset. Why?..... I'm going to put the Rolls Royce to much better use than the previous owner and he never used it very much anyway, it was being wasted....so I think the neighborhood should get over itself and grant me legal possession because I just 'love' the Rolls Royce....and since the previous owner doesn't have the Rolls Royce any more he doesn't have the need for his garage whereas you do....and of course with the continuing rationale, the house is not far away from being rescued either.....

So to your mind what's wrong with this picture?....because that's what people are seeing

'love' is a wonderful thing as long as others are not being deprived because of it

Dear Ilmessaggio,

«'love' is a wonderful thing as long as others are not being deprived because of it»

You are absolutely right.

So in the context of this discussion, do you consider my love for Israel and indifference toward the Palestinians as sinister? Would you rather see me supporting the Jewish settlers (whom I happen to hate) in order to prevent ordinary Palestinians from being ruled by their own cruel and corrupt regime?

And since we mentioned Rolls Royces, how about the following scenario: my neighbour likes to show off his Rolls Royce. Several times a day he parades his Rolls Royce in front of my house, revving it up to 200 decibels to the cheers of 100's of his followers who block the entrance to my house and won't let me pass through. To preserve my cherished peace and quiet, I enter his garage at night and puncture the tyres of his Rolls Royce.

So to your mind what's wrong with this picture?....because that's what people are seeing

I'm sure the whole PLO and even all Palestinians to boot, will feel energised to destroy nuclear armed Israel forthwith, having received the nod from that mighty international political force...not Trump's USA, not the UN Security Council, but

...the NSW Branch of the ALP.

Scary.

<<So in the context of this discussion, do you consider my love for Israel and indifference toward the Palestinians as sinister?>>

No I do not perceive your love for Israel as sinister, quite natural in fact.... the only problem is that Israel would not have existed had the Zionist movement not destabilised the British establishment in the territory and in turn dispossessed the Palestinians under the claim of holy rites
In which case there would not have been an Israel....for you to love
and there would not be the ongoing conflict.

Whatever is there, is there as consequence of past actions
It is not a question of who is more entitled because of....?
The way I see it it's a matter of a society being displaced for political reasons under the guise of religious belief.
You can't turn back the clock but the consequences will remain for quite some time.
The Palestinians are where they are because of their inability to become a cohesive entity but that doesn't give anyone the right to dispossess them, and we're talking, even to this present day.

It's either one law for all or no law for any.

So David, at it again eh!

"An independent Arab State had already been established in 78% of former Palestine"

Well there you have it, problem solved, just revert back to the original 100% Palestinian State, no need for the illegally created state of Israel, send everyone back to Europe where they resided for centuries and the whole ugly experiment goes away.

As I stated on your last post:- I think I will channel a little George Bernard Shaw for you, only slightly modified for your special taste:

There are three concepts to describe the position of Zionists like you David! intelligence, decency, and Zionism. We can argue that if a person is intelligent, and a Zionist, he is not decent. If he is decent and a Zionist, he is not intelligent. And if he is decent and intelligent, he is not a Zionist.

In your case David, you are obviously not the latter of the three!

At least nowadays thanks to the Internet, via which a lot of information and news that the strongly Zionist influenced mainstream media will not publish, grubby details about the Zionist Settler State in Occupied Palestine are getting more publicity than ever before. it seems the more most people find out about them, the less they want to support it. The lobby led by America Israel Public Affairs Committee in the US, which has most Federal politicians under its influence supports the right wind extremist policies in Israel more than its Jewish citizens overall do. Hopefully this will not last as younger American Jews are less sympathetic to the Israeli Zionist regime and much more to the Palestinians than older ones.

The Labor Party in Australia is helping recognition of what has been going on. Note that possibly the area in Australia where support for Israel would be strongest is Malcolm Turnbull's electorate, with the highest proportion of residents identifying themselves as Jewish.

For the objective context behind this NSW resolution see the maps at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html. Scroll through all of the maps.

The maps make it totally clear that the racist rogue state of Israel should never have been imposed on Palestine by foreign colonialists and should be dismantled, with inhabitants of Israel born outside it made to return to their points of origin and the stolen land returned to its pre-Nakba owners.

This would be in keeping with the decolonisation that engulfed Africa with the collapse of the other European empires after the war.

How the resulting state of Palestine ran its affairs would be its own business, subject to international law that applies to all nations.

There's a lesson for America in this: cut off the Israeli tail that's wagging the American dog.

Dear Julian,

Indeed, Israel would be better off without America - at least, Israel will then no longer be verbally attacked by people like yourself who misdirect their hate of America towards Israel.

Israel can and will continue to defend itself on its own, whether you and your "international law" like it or not.

The vast majority of Israelis were born in Israel anyway, or were brought there as small children. This BTW includes about 20% non-Jews whom you also would have liked to see kicked out to Syria, or why not state your first preference - to the depths of the Mediterranean sea. Jewish or otherwise, all Israelis would fight to the end, shoulder to shoulder, even using nukes if necessary, just as you would if internet trolls demanded that you give up your home and all and move to some unknown distant country.

Yuyutsu, I have boundless appreciation of America as the first nation to be founded on the values of the European Enlightenment. It doesn't need its racist tail in the middle of Palestine.

Could you comment on the significance of the maps at
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html ?

PS: Maps like that would apply also to Australia. Everything done to expunge all references to race in our laws, constitution and culture will help right the terrorist wrongs of our predecessors following the arrival of the British in 1788. I'm in favour of continuing to work towards seamless inclusion (a responsibility of both indigenous and non-indigenous Australians) as opposed to a racist two state solution and a treaty as in NZ.

Dear Julian,

«I have boundless appreciation of America as the first nation to be founded on the values of the European Enlightenment.»

Well, I oppose those unenlightened values which ironically you call "Enlightenment". I also despise the American materialist culture, which produces and brings us all that junk. Nevertheless, I must acknowledge and appreciate that without America's military might, Australia would have long been devoured by China, which is even worse.

«Could you comment on the significance of the maps»

What was was, the past cannot be changed - I am now concerned about the present:

1. All the living members of my family in Israel were born there.
2. They all live within Israel-proper, that is within its pre-1967 borders.
3. They were not personally involved and are not responsible for any expulsion or ill-treatment of Palestinians.
4. Members of my family were shot at several times by Palestinians, unprovoked (fortunately no one was hurt).
5. They are ready to fight as fiercely as necessary to keep their homes and stay there - so would you in their place.
6. They will never agree to share their country with others who want to kill them - nor would you.

As I am not a Zionist, I oppose the 1967 occupation and I don't care how small Israel is, so long as:
1) Its area includes the properties of my family and their places of work and study.
2) Israel remains strong enough to continue to protect my family.

I would have welcomed into Israel all Palestinians who would be genuinely happy to allow my family to live and remain on their land in peace, but how many are they and realistically, how much power do they have to oppose their violent leadership?

Re Yuyutsu: I have to share my country with people whose holy books advise them to enslave or kill me. They're called Moslems. They came as immigrants.

Expelling overlords who were not born in Israel is not relevant to your family. People born in Palestine lived in peace there before the terrorist Nakba. A couple of them are friends of mine, both Jews (who hate Israel with a passion) and I have discussed the issues with them, at great length. We agree.

The catastrophic land theft shown in those maps is something that needs to be reversed as the large amount of territory just as brutally stolen by the Huns since 1939 had to be recovered and was, hundreds of thousand-bomber raids and an orgy of righteous Russian revenge in Prussia later.

Dear Julian,

Your fear of a few Australian Muslims, negligible overall except in parts of Sydney, makes me laugh:
20% of Israelis are Muslim already, or at least counted as such because about half of them, though of Muslim ancestry, identify as secular communists.
They are happy Israelis who don't want to be anything else.
They participate in the Israeli economy, have the right to vote (about half of them use it, a pity the others don't) and their own political party. A minority of them even serves in the Israeli army, especially as skilled trackers. Some Muslim Israelis even served as officers and gave their life for Israel.
A few came as immigrants, but most simply had their ancestors born in Israel, never expelled.

Now speaking of "overlords that were not born in Israel", there are indeed a handful, most clearly Minister Avigdor Liberman, head of the extreme "Yisrael Beitenu" party. By all means, send him back to Russia, but the average Israeli is neither an overlord nor born outside, and as mentioned above, is often not even Jewish.

Some land was stolen, no doubt, other land was purchased for good money, other land remains with its original Arab owners, other land was uninhabited desert/swamp while still other land was won at war (by both sides). Reversal of the stolen parts is totally impractical: over those original primitive villages, now are built tall apartment buildings with many families, roads, bridges, industry, hospitals. Typical Arab villages before 1948 consisted mostly of mud-brick houses that had to be renewed every year after the rains or else would fall apart, with just one or two stone buildings for the wealthy Sheikh or leader/overlord. Your suggestion of reversal would create an unfair human tragedy for millions of innocents.

If all the above was true there would be no impediment to inhabitants of refugee camps outside Palestine being invited (with grovelling apologies)to return and reclaim their bit of land.

Dear Julian,

Other than Zionism (an ideological impediment), the practical impediments are:
1) Those inhabitants of refugee camps outside Palestine cannot reasonably be trusted to become benign, non-hostile Israeli citizens. To start with, [unlike Israeli Arabs that remained or were born in Israel,] they don't speak Hebrew and their customs are very different.
2) The original homes of their grand-grand parents have long been built over and transacted so the current owners, in general, had no knowledge or control over what happened under their land, typically before they were even born.

I don't give a hoot for Zionism, but if your plan is to solve the problem of 4-5 generations of refugees, who were hostage to Arab/Muslim ideology for generations, because no other refugees anywhere in the world remained unsettled for that long, if your plan is to solve this problem by displacing others, then I do not support it.

There are just, non-racist, solutions for the difficulties Yuyutsu suggests as prohibiting the reversal of the injustice of the Nakba:

First step in making room for Palestinian returnees would be to kick the foreign immigrant occupants[1] out of the illegal settlements and send them back to their own countries. Then send back to their own countries immigrants[1] who have moved to Israel itself under its racist ancestry-based "Law of Return" governing who may enter and settle and who may not.

Allow Palestinian refugees in the camps to return and settle using their own languages and customs.

Close the whole territory to foreign racists who want to move to Palestine to "make aliyah".

The state of Israel as an entity could be relocated (without moving a single living person) in the Mediterranean Sea.

[1] No, people born in the territory are not immigrants no matter who their ancestors are.

Dear Julian,

If the state of Israel is going to be relocated to the Mediterranean Sea, then who is going to guard my family against the incoming Arab/Muslim mob that wishes to kill them?

---

It's not that I care about the past - I care for the present and future of my family, but I did find some discrepancies in your last post:

«reversal of the injustice of the Nakba»

Both sides suffered injustice at the time. Israel was attacked, the residents of Jerusalem were starved and dehydrated by siege, and 1% of the Israelis were killed in that 1948 war. Israel also had to absorb many Jewish refugees who were then expelled from Arab countries and stripped of their assets. It accepted them all without question while the Arab states did not accept their own.

«First step in making room for Palestinian returnees»

What "returnees"? 69 years later, only the aged have ever been in Israel and the number of those who were old enough to remember is even smaller.

«kick the foreign immigrant occupants[1] out of the illegal settlements and send them back to their own countries.»

Nice thought, I wish it was possible - but who in the world has the power to do such a thing? Perhaps JC when he comes again...

«Then send back to their own countries immigrants[1] who have moved to Israel itself»

What a display of humanity... Don't we hate the cruelty when Australia expels permanent-residents and Kiwis who lived here since childhood and never been in any other country? Go tear people from their families, from their friends, their homes and everything else... in order to settle old disputes that occurred before they were born, such as between the Montagues and Capulets.

«Allow Palestinian refugees in the camps to return and settle using their own languages and customs.»

Their language is Arabic and their customs are to draw knives and stab people shouting "Allahu Akbar".

The invasion by foreign racist terrorists (the Nakba) to create the rogue state of Israel is described ball to ball at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

After that, all attacks on the state of Israel have been Resistance movements morally equivalent to the Resistance movements to reverse the Hun invasion and occupation of Europe during the 1940s.

Jewish families lived in Palestine as equals, not as born overlords or as cringing dhimmis, for centuries before the Nakba without Arabs going "Allahu Akbah" and cutting their throats.

Any "solution" short of restoring the status quo ante is no more just than solving the Hun occupation problem after 1939 by leaving it in place. All suggested "solutions" to Israeli occupation must be measured against that for them to be morally sustainable.

As for how the solution is to be achieved, non-racist Arabs and Jews will achieve it perforce after the racist state of Israel has lost its lifeline of support from America.

That is why pressure in America and allied countries against the Zionist lobby is so important in helping the inhabitants of Palestine (on both sides of the wall) to dismantle the state of Israel. The resultant disruption in Palestine will be no worse than the appalling disruption caused by the presence of Israel today.

There's a precedent: the dismantling of the racist Apartheid state of South Africa.

Dear Julian,

You keep speaking of "solutions": solutions for what? The problem that you are eager to solve is some alleged injustice that happened in the first half of the 20th century.

Your solution is modelled after the ending of the Apartheid in South Africa. However, the Blacks in South Africa are peaceful and forgiving people; are a majority; and at least share Christian values with the Whites - none of these can be said for the Palestinians.

There is no chance that upon implementation of your solution, the Palestinians would allow my family to stay where they are, or even alive.

Israel, right or wrong, is highly capable of defending itself, thus defending my family, thus I have no reason to accept your solution - please try solving other problems in ways that do not involve expelling or killing my family. I am sure you could find plenty of those - shall we start with the occupation of Tibet?

Responses to this whining article by the Zionist lawyer are relevant whereas responses about Tibet are not.

The problem to be solved is occupation of Palestine established by a terrorist invasion and endless subsequent land grabbing, and the undying hostility to this by the indigenous Palestinians many of whom have been forcibly exiled.

First is to call out the lies - the lie that Israel is the home of the Jewish people. It is not. The lie that to call for its dismantlement is Jew-hatred. It is not. The lie that Jews don't have dozens of homes in which they live as equals. They do. The lie that any race, anywhere, is chosen by God to be overlords. No such race exists. The lie that Israel is the only safe haven available to those protected by it (and the corollary that those it protects would be exposed to racist tyranny and have nowhere in the world to live if it was dismantled). It is not, it is anything but a safe haven, and there are many countries which would welcome such people as (equal) citizens.

Solutions to the problem are endlessly proposed and endlessly rejected and endlessly fought over, and the monumental injustice to indigenous Palestinians remains as does the drain on the financial, diplomatic and military resources of the USA (and to a lesser extent its allies) in keeping racist Israel artificially alive. That's why the solution to the problem has to be pursued in the USA and countries allied to it. The yappy lawyer David Singer reckons the Labor Party is letting his side down. Good on them if they are.

Dear Julian,

«The problem to be solved is occupation of Palestine established by a terrorist invasion and endless subsequent land grabbing, and the undying hostility to this by the indigenous Palestinians many of whom have been forcibly exiled.»

OK, but given that you cannot produce a solution that does not involve hurting my family badly, I rather keep this problem UNSOLVED.

«First is to call out the lies - the lie that Israel is the home of the Jewish people» [and a list of further lies]

Sure, go ahead. It would make no practical difference, but if it makes you feel good...

«and the monumental injustice to indigenous Palestinians»

The most monumental injustice to indigenous Palestinians is done to them by their own leadership, including horrendous torture:

http://www.newsmax.com/International/Hamas-bombs-Gaza-Israel/2009/01/09/id/327583/

http://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-court-pa-tortured-dozens-of-suspected-collaborators-with-israel/

You may say: "well, that's only for collaborators with Israel", but in fact any Palestinian who has a grudge against their neighbour, or covets their possessions, accuses him/her of collaborating with Israel.

- and these are the kind of people that you wish to expose my family to. Forget it!

Here is what a Muslim Palestinian woman has to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TprQgCdrFXk

(no, I'm not an idiot, not everything she says is true, but that's a healthy and brave reaction to the atrocities of her own people)

«there are many countries which would welcome such people as (equal) citizens.»

8.5 millions of them?? Aren't there already enough refugees in Syria alone?
Anyway, my family is not interested in moving anywhere else - they rather fight, so move on.

«and the monumental injustice to indigenous Palestinians remains as does the drain on the financial, diplomatic and military resources of the USA»

OK, who cares about the USA anyway? Israel would do even better without them!

«The yappy lawyer David Singer reckons the Labor Party is letting his side down»

Yes, it lets HIS side down: David is an enemy of Israel, yet it does support Israel in some teeny-tiny way, given that the NSW Labor party has such a huge influence on the Middle-East...