@Shadow Minister

"The 1967 borders were no less AND NO MORE legitimate than the 1948 borders." (fixed it)

re "From 1948 to 67 the PLO ran endless terror attacks against Jewish civilians, and conducted cross border attacks from Jordan and Syria."

If I may, that's a little hard to swallow given the PLO was not founded until 1964!

re: "the presence of Jews is as gratuitous as"

No, nothing 'gratuitous' about that. The Palestinians were already there before WW2 even started.

The overwhelming bulk of them should not have been there, had no right to be there, and they went there with the intention to take over the whole place.

The British were unable to stop the illegal immigration nor the terrorists and supplies coming in. The place was a total mess long before mid-1947 and the Partition announcement, it was an ungovernable mess in 1944.

Unfortunately the Palestinians and British didn't have a 'John Howard' equivalent with rich treasury to declare: "WE will decide who comes to our country and who will not."

re: "Jews had been in the area for millennia"

Some Jews were there, some jews were in many nations for millennia, but the majority of them in 1948 had barely been there for weeks and months - they had just got off the people smuggling ships, caught a train from Cairo or walked over the borders like Mexicans.

What the Ottomans did is irrelevant to everything about Israel.

re: "the rise of anti semitism"

Irrelevant, it wasn't the fault of the Palestinians.

The illegal and pseudo-legal immigrants had ZERO right to invade Palestine by the thousands. The British were the rightful Government and they BANNED further immigration and 'did an Abbott' forcefully turning the ships about.

Palestine was never the "traditional homeland" for European, Ashkanazi, Sth American, USA, UK, Russian, Australian, Canadian or Zionist jews.

Besides their beliefs are irrelevant. Just because they said so, believed so, does not make it so.

Logic:101
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@Shadow Minister re "violence by Arabs against Jews began from as early as 1920."

Totally innocent yeah? Irrelevant.

Palestine was still a basket case post-WW1 during the 1920s ... don't just blame the Arabs blame the Jews and blame the British Government for they had all the power via the League of Nations.

Smyrna in Turkey was burning in the 20s when the Greeks got kicked out after their failed 'coup'.

re "The flood of Jewish refugees in the 1940s"

The flood began in the 1930s and it never stopped, it just got worse after 1944

re "the fighting had become uncontrollable"

because the Jewish Zionist TERRORISTS were bringing arms and bombs and money in hand over fist and started killing the British soldiers and the Arabs and anyone they wanted - just like Al Queda and ISIS have been doing.

They intentionally wanted the British GONE so they started an "insugency" and a "sectarian civil war" just like ISIS (Al queda in Iraq) did from 2003.

ISIS then later declared itself a STATE too - let's all recognise Islamic State in Syria/iraq too shall we? It's the same thing, bringing in overseas religious fanatics and fighters/terrorists, whole families at once, with all their money and skills to take control of other peoples territory - and killing whoever does not SUBMIT - it's the work of all Religious FANATICS all over.

The Zionist Jews wanted Palestine to create a new Jewish State all to themselves - that was the Plan and that's what happened.

They never had any intention of "assimilating" into Palestine and living in peace with Palestinians - as many Australians call for Muslims to do the same here.

The unelected Zionist Jewish leadership had no RIGHT to declare a State for themselves ... Jews owned ~10% of the land even after mass immigration.

A breach of everything they had agreed to with the UN etc.

"All the Arab states attacked Israel"

Irrelevant - they were NOT controlled by the people living in Palestine - did not recognize it as a STATE = ISIS today!
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Thomas,

Half truths again?

Most of the Jews entering Israel between 1920 and 1948 were fleeing persecution and racially based mass murder, something that ISIS can never claim. (unless of course you are a holocaust denier)

Both Jews and Arabs were involved in the terrorist action against the British.

The West bank and East Jerusalem was captured by Jordan in the war and was annexed by Jordan between 1948 and 1967. At no time then was there a discussion of a Palestinian state that included the west bank.

Secondly, as the Arabs had made it clear that the continued existence of Jews in Israel would not be tolerated, the Jews had no option but to create their own state. The original area allocated to them under the proposal in 1847 was far less than they achieved in the war of independence.

@Shadow Minister con't, this isn't really for you, nor an attempt to change your mind, it's simply my response to some things said, for the record. I'm pretty well done with this subject, but it's been enjoyable because I haven't touched it for years. Besides my only real motivation is what Singer is doing and what he's said and why he said it.

re "with the stated intention of wiping them out"

No, they were not the Khmer Rouge nor the Nazis ok? I've had enough hand waving hyperbole, seriously. I little balance never killed anyone, imo.

The intention was clear, stopping the unlawful unjustified construction of a jewish state on Palestinian Muslims Arab lands and for disregarding all Palestinian's rights through terrorism, murder, lies, and their ethnic cleansing intent.

eg why the US/Oz/etc are Syria Iraq right now fighting ISIS. The Myths are back to front iow.

re: "or the right of Israel to exist."

YES, exactly. Does the Israeli state recognise the terrorists of ISIS as legitimate State because "they said so!" and want a Religious Calipahte? Nope - same bone different horse - it's logic 1+ 1 = 1 + 1.

Palestine was NOT their homeland - they just went claimed it. Not going to fly much longer, that plane has run out of fuel and will crash eventually and cost them $billions every year for decades.

I do not expect you, singer or Israelis to agree with me. Nor expect it will disappear as 'State' overnight. It's my opinion based on my knowledge. I have no skin in this game, I am an objective unbiased observer. That's it.

Disagree all you wish, but you don't have "make up the history" as you go nor blindly believe what either side says. I sure as hell do not. I never said the ARabs were innocent either - but you missed that. 350 words I focus on what I want to say - this is not a "thesis" nor a 5 volume book I could write if motivated, but I am not.

MY REFS
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18514&page=0#329946

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18534&page=0#330036

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18514&page=0#330042

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18534&page=0#330045
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@Shadow Minister, and whoever *FINALE*.

re "Half truths again?" Nope.

re "Jews entering Israel etc"

Nah, wrong, even if they were it was not Britain's sole problem, nor the Arabs of the middle east

re "something that ISIS can never claim."

you miss the point.

re "(unless of course you are a holocaust denier)"
Nope.

re "Both Jews and Arabs were involved in the terrorist action against the British."

False ( or can't recall)

"The West bank and East Jerusalem was captured by Jordan - "

Irrelevant to my only point. Israel was and still is an illegitimate state. As is Saudi Arabia, Nth Korea, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, and several others, imo.

re "continued existence of Jews in Israel"

Irrelevant to my point. You're blaming the VICTIMS.

re "under the proposal in 1847 (1947)"

Key Words PROPOSAL/PLAN - The UN had NO POWER to tell anyone what to do. Arab neighbour states and Palestinians/leaders had every legal and moral right to reject it.

Just like al queda in iraq blew up the UN compound - so did the Jewish terrorist groups in Israel and wherever they could murder, bomb, destabilize the entire region, UN process and the British ability to "govern"

re "area .. was far less "

YES, they "stole" even more land than was originally in the UN partition plan when they declared statehood, and then got even more in the 1st War after the USA bailed them out at the last moment (Russia/Syria?)

it is "extreme fundamentalist beliefs" religious MYTHS, that have started almost every single war on earth.
They really need to stop living a mythical fantasy of make believe!

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.743815

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/world/middleeast/netanyahu-abbas-un-general-assembly.html

Have fun, I'm done.
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Thomas,

Legitimacy is based on the recognition of others, Israel is recognised by most of the world as by all measures legitimate. On the other hand, Palestine is not.

Similarly, as >70% of the Jews in Israel were born there, their birth right to the land is indisputable. Your opinion is just that.