I don't fancy your chances on getting a truth and reconciliation process up as forerunner of a binding peace process/two state solution?

That said, it has worked elsewhere where there seemed insoluble unending generational conflict! And would work much better if most or all the arid country, north south and west of Israel, were converted into a virtual garden of eden! And very doable!

Suggest you look at my previous post, on an earlier thread for a very doable (not for profit) description on how that could be done.
Alan B.

"There is no doubt that Palestinian acts of violence against Israelis are a direct result of 50 years of occupation that continues to frustrate and incite them. Consequently, the Palestinians feel they have been left with no option but to resort to violence in an effort to end the occupation and pave the way for the establishment of their own state in the West Bank and Gaza."

This is a stupid statement, as it is their unending violence and hatred of Jews that started the wars that caused them to lose their territory.

Reality check, Alon.

Trump will probably win the Presidential elections and the people who vote for him most defiantly don't like Ay-rabs. They could not care how many Ay-rabs the Israelis splatter all over the landscape, and that attitude is growing with every terrorist incident in the USA caused by Muslims.

Trump is so far the only western leader who has come right out and said that Muslims should not be allowed to immigrate to the USA. That's why people are voting for him. In another 20 years, the Euros will be voting for Trump to be the President of the Eurozone.

We don't care about Ay-rabs, we don't care about Muslims, and we especially don't care about "Palestinians." The "Palestinians" were the ones who hijacked our planes, took our people hostages, and killed Olympians at Olympic games. Whatever the Israelis do to them , they most definitely deserve.

When the "Palestinians stop shooting at the Israelis, the Israelis will stop shooting back. Meanwhile, we should let the Israelis get on with the job of ethnically cleaning the Muslims from their land, in the same way that the Muslims have ethnically cleansed everybody else from their land, after stealing that land from them.

Fair's fair.

This article says,
That one way to make peace is to facilitate visiting rights betwern Israel
and Palestine.
The trouble with that is, it is the Palestians who are desperate to get into
Israel . They had 15tunnels dug just awhile back trying to get into Israel.

I dint see any Israelies except, muslims, livng in Israel, breaking any kind
of record trying to visit Palestine. The place isnt worth visiting.

The muslims were allowed to move freely around Israel, until they started
blowing school kids up in buses.

@CHERFUL: "The muslims were allowed to move freely around Israel, until they started blowing school kids up in buses."

I say all the people were allowed to move freely around Palestine until about 1944/45 when due to uncontrolled illegal immigration they started blowing up each other.

It got worse when the new UN of ~55 nations decided the best thing to happen in the Mandate was Partition. It got far worse when the UK 'washed it's hands' of the matter.

It instantly became insane when a non-elected undemocratic unrepresentative group of people unilaterally declared statehood against the express legal requirements of the UN/UNSC program, against the wishes/advice of EVERY Nation and against the wishes of the MAJORITY of PEOPLE already there.

Mythical borders were NOT based on the Partition Plan. The outcome of Zionist impatience and contempt for the Arabs from the BEGINNING (as irrelevant to their own wants) was obvious then.

No parties acted honourably during this 1940s saga. UN was ill-equipped to manage the situation - had no legitimacy to impose any Plan on people against their will.

No nation properly supported the British who were stretched beyond reason for years. Truman's Administration was incompetent. The Arms Embargo into the Mandate was not honoured. No one was willing to create a UN Peace Keeping force to replace/support the UK.

That a dispute existed was SOLELY the result of the Zionist demand for a Jewish State in Palestine in the first place. The Arabs did not create the problem!

Jewish Refugees and immigrant Zionists plus their powerful enablers created the internal conflict by BEING THERE (no different than boat refugees heading for Australia or Europe via people smugglers today.)

The international community just wanted the 'problem' to go away. Geopolitics was off the wall. Not the Arabs fault!

A different CULTURE with ALIEN Goals suddenly arrived en-mass, buying land like Chinese today.

The easy way out (especially collective guilt) was for the USSR, USA, UK and others to recognise the State of Israel and kick the can down the road. It's been getting kicked ever since.
-

The claim that the violence was due to the presence of Jews is as gratuitous as the claim that the violence was due to the presence of Arabs.

Jews had been in the area for millennia, but under the Ottomans the Jews were very much second class citizens subject to discriminatory taxes and occasional massacres. With the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918 and the rise of anti semitism there began a migration of Jews back to their traditional homeland, and violence by Arabs against Jews began from as early as 1920.

The flood of Jewish refugees in the 1940s boosted the Jewish population and by 1947 the fighting had become uncontrollable and the British left. All the Arab states attacked Israel with the stated intention of wiping them out, but in 1948 was fought to a standstill and the armistice line became the recognised border even though not a single Arab country recognised it, or the right of Israel to exist.

From 1948 to 67 the PLO ran endless terror attacks against Jewish civilians, and conducted cross border attacks from Jordan and Syria.

In 1967 Egypt, Jordan and Syria in an overt display of aggression publically declared their intention to wipe Israel off the map and massed their armies on Israel's border and blockaded the port of Eilat (an act of war). The Israeli preemptive strike destroyed their air forces and quickly captured the Golan heights, the west bank and the Sinai.

The 1967 borders were no less legitimate than the 1948 borders.

@Shadow Minister

"The 1967 borders were no less AND NO MORE legitimate than the 1948 borders." (fixed it)

re "From 1948 to 67 the PLO ran endless terror attacks against Jewish civilians, and conducted cross border attacks from Jordan and Syria."

If I may, that's a little hard to swallow given the PLO was not founded until 1964!

re: "the presence of Jews is as gratuitous as"

No, nothing 'gratuitous' about that. The Palestinians were already there before WW2 even started.

The overwhelming bulk of them should not have been there, had no right to be there, and they went there with the intention to take over the whole place.

The British were unable to stop the illegal immigration nor the terrorists and supplies coming in. The place was a total mess long before mid-1947 and the Partition announcement, it was an ungovernable mess in 1944.

Unfortunately the Palestinians and British didn't have a 'John Howard' equivalent with rich treasury to declare: "WE will decide who comes to our country and who will not."

re: "Jews had been in the area for millennia"

Some Jews were there, some jews were in many nations for millennia, but the majority of them in 1948 had barely been there for weeks and months - they had just got off the people smuggling ships, caught a train from Cairo or walked over the borders like Mexicans.

What the Ottomans did is irrelevant to everything about Israel.

re: "the rise of anti semitism"

Irrelevant, it wasn't the fault of the Palestinians.

The illegal and pseudo-legal immigrants had ZERO right to invade Palestine by the thousands. The British were the rightful Government and they BANNED further immigration and 'did an Abbott' forcefully turning the ships about.

Palestine was never the "traditional homeland" for European, Ashkanazi, Sth American, USA, UK, Russian, Australian, Canadian or Zionist jews.

Besides their beliefs are irrelevant. Just because they said so, believed so, does not make it so.

Logic:101
-

@Shadow Minister re "violence by Arabs against Jews began from as early as 1920."

Totally innocent yeah? Irrelevant.

Palestine was still a basket case post-WW1 during the 1920s ... don't just blame the Arabs blame the Jews and blame the British Government for they had all the power via the League of Nations.

Smyrna in Turkey was burning in the 20s when the Greeks got kicked out after their failed 'coup'.

re "The flood of Jewish refugees in the 1940s"

The flood began in the 1930s and it never stopped, it just got worse after 1944

re "the fighting had become uncontrollable"

because the Jewish Zionist TERRORISTS were bringing arms and bombs and money in hand over fist and started killing the British soldiers and the Arabs and anyone they wanted - just like Al Queda and ISIS have been doing.

They intentionally wanted the British GONE so they started an "insugency" and a "sectarian civil war" just like ISIS (Al queda in Iraq) did from 2003.

ISIS then later declared itself a STATE too - let's all recognise Islamic State in Syria/iraq too shall we? It's the same thing, bringing in overseas religious fanatics and fighters/terrorists, whole families at once, with all their money and skills to take control of other peoples territory - and killing whoever does not SUBMIT - it's the work of all Religious FANATICS all over.

The Zionist Jews wanted Palestine to create a new Jewish State all to themselves - that was the Plan and that's what happened.

They never had any intention of "assimilating" into Palestine and living in peace with Palestinians - as many Australians call for Muslims to do the same here.

The unelected Zionist Jewish leadership had no RIGHT to declare a State for themselves ... Jews owned ~10% of the land even after mass immigration.

A breach of everything they had agreed to with the UN etc.

"All the Arab states attacked Israel"

Irrelevant - they were NOT controlled by the people living in Palestine - did not recognize it as a STATE = ISIS today!
-

Thomas,

Half truths again?

Most of the Jews entering Israel between 1920 and 1948 were fleeing persecution and racially based mass murder, something that ISIS can never claim. (unless of course you are a holocaust denier)

Both Jews and Arabs were involved in the terrorist action against the British.

The West bank and East Jerusalem was captured by Jordan in the war and was annexed by Jordan between 1948 and 1967. At no time then was there a discussion of a Palestinian state that included the west bank.

Secondly, as the Arabs had made it clear that the continued existence of Jews in Israel would not be tolerated, the Jews had no option but to create their own state. The original area allocated to them under the proposal in 1847 was far less than they achieved in the war of independence.

@Shadow Minister con't, this isn't really for you, nor an attempt to change your mind, it's simply my response to some things said, for the record. I'm pretty well done with this subject, but it's been enjoyable because I haven't touched it for years. Besides my only real motivation is what Singer is doing and what he's said and why he said it.

re "with the stated intention of wiping them out"

No, they were not the Khmer Rouge nor the Nazis ok? I've had enough hand waving hyperbole, seriously. I little balance never killed anyone, imo.

The intention was clear, stopping the unlawful unjustified construction of a jewish state on Palestinian Muslims Arab lands and for disregarding all Palestinian's rights through terrorism, murder, lies, and their ethnic cleansing intent.

eg why the US/Oz/etc are Syria Iraq right now fighting ISIS. The Myths are back to front iow.

re: "or the right of Israel to exist."

YES, exactly. Does the Israeli state recognise the terrorists of ISIS as legitimate State because "they said so!" and want a Religious Calipahte? Nope - same bone different horse - it's logic 1+ 1 = 1 + 1.

Palestine was NOT their homeland - they just went claimed it. Not going to fly much longer, that plane has run out of fuel and will crash eventually and cost them $billions every year for decades.

I do not expect you, singer or Israelis to agree with me. Nor expect it will disappear as 'State' overnight. It's my opinion based on my knowledge. I have no skin in this game, I am an objective unbiased observer. That's it.

Disagree all you wish, but you don't have "make up the history" as you go nor blindly believe what either side says. I sure as hell do not. I never said the ARabs were innocent either - but you missed that. 350 words I focus on what I want to say - this is not a "thesis" nor a 5 volume book I could write if motivated, but I am not.

MY REFS
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18514&page=0#329946

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18534&page=0#330036

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18514&page=0#330042

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18534&page=0#330045
-

@Shadow Minister, and whoever *FINALE*.

re "Half truths again?" Nope.

re "Jews entering Israel etc"

Nah, wrong, even if they were it was not Britain's sole problem, nor the Arabs of the middle east

re "something that ISIS can never claim."

you miss the point.

re "(unless of course you are a holocaust denier)"
Nope.

re "Both Jews and Arabs were involved in the terrorist action against the British."

False ( or can't recall)

"The West bank and East Jerusalem was captured by Jordan - "

Irrelevant to my only point. Israel was and still is an illegitimate state. As is Saudi Arabia, Nth Korea, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, and several others, imo.

re "continued existence of Jews in Israel"

Irrelevant to my point. You're blaming the VICTIMS.

re "under the proposal in 1847 (1947)"

Key Words PROPOSAL/PLAN - The UN had NO POWER to tell anyone what to do. Arab neighbour states and Palestinians/leaders had every legal and moral right to reject it.

Just like al queda in iraq blew up the UN compound - so did the Jewish terrorist groups in Israel and wherever they could murder, bomb, destabilize the entire region, UN process and the British ability to "govern"

re "area .. was far less "

YES, they "stole" even more land than was originally in the UN partition plan when they declared statehood, and then got even more in the 1st War after the USA bailed them out at the last moment (Russia/Syria?)

it is "extreme fundamentalist beliefs" religious MYTHS, that have started almost every single war on earth.
They really need to stop living a mythical fantasy of make believe!

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.743815

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/23/world/middleeast/netanyahu-abbas-un-general-assembly.html

Have fun, I'm done.
-

Thomas,

Legitimacy is based on the recognition of others, Israel is recognised by most of the world as by all measures legitimate. On the other hand, Palestine is not.

Similarly, as >70% of the Jews in Israel were born there, their birth right to the land is indisputable. Your opinion is just that.

@Shadow Minister: "Legitimacy is based on the recognition of others"

Exactly .... remove that "recognition" and the State of Israel no longer exists. That is what is coming.

Sth Africa White Apartheid REgime and their CONSTITUTION was "recognised" by UK, USA, Australia et al - then one day it was not.

What happened?

Khmer Rouge were "recognised" as the govt of Cambodia, the next day they were not.

The Taliban Govt of Afghanistan, given a $300 million Grant by GWB in JULY 2001 - two months later the Taliban Govt was gone.

One day the Baathists under Saddam were in charge, they even had a BIASED SECTARIAN BASED Constitution, the next day, they were gone.

Saddam found in a hole.

Hitler was recognised as Chancellor Govt of Germany. He did deals with the USSR and Chamberlain. 6 years later Hitler blew his brains out.

First there was the Holy Roman Empire it disappeared. Then a single Germany arose, became two Germanys, then became one again.

One day the USSR Govt controlled the largest ever group of nations Earth. Recognized by every other nation for 40 years, in one day it disappeared.

Do you RECOGNISE a pattern here at all Shadow Minister?

You can deny this until hell freezes over, but denial will never change a thing about Truth.

A million Shadow Ministers, David Singers cannot change it.

The State of Israel, imo, is not, never has been, a legitimate nation state.

How many nations recognise that today, does not matter.

Mark my words.

It will fall, as all the others above have fallen, so goes Israel.

The people living in that 'State' (born there or not) must then have to make a decision.

Do they pick up arms and fight a civil war, pack their bags and use their Dual passports, apply to emigrate, or embrace the new Nation State and participate.

Or do they do a Hitler and blow their brains out?

One day those will be their choices.

Your beliefs dreams wants, have nothing to with it.

It is what it is. Do not count your chickens.
-

There is no answer to the Palestinian,Israelie problem.
except a fight to the death.

Unless you can persuade all the Israelies to move to Australia and we send
all the Palestinians in Australia,Britain and Europe back to Palestine.

There are millions of Arabs in Western and European countries.

There is no way to broker peace because you have the Israelie population and Palestian populations growing ever larger and a disputed area of land between
the burgeoning spread of people.

Re-conciliation as stated in this article is a joke.
Every time these two sides get near each other the slaughter begins.

This sounds to me like an attempt to let the Arabs move freely across Israelie borders
again, in the guise of reconciliation. We are all friends now.(lol!) Its just not going to happen.

This war in Palestine is a crystal ball to the future if countries keep on letting in
millions of refugees from different ethnic groups. Territorial warfare.

I dont want civil war in this country for my grandchildren and great grandchildren
and thats why I oppose mass immigration.
Civil war in this country, I'd say, "I can see Hell now" for future generations if they keep
this unchecked immigration up then it,"will be hell seen too late". As it is now too late
for Israel and Palestine.

The Germans were condemmed for wanting the Jews gone from their country but
the irony is that not one country wanted to take that many Jews in after world war2.
not even the wealthy Western nations.
So the Palestinians were given the short straw. Look at the result.

Thomas,

Unlike your fantasy, no country withdrew recognition of the Republic of South Africa. Israel is recognised today, and today is legitimate, which is more than can be said for Palestine.

Similarly you refer to countries and borders changing based on warfare and are essentially recognising the expansion of Israels borders.

A Palestinian state will come into being as the result of negotiations, expectations that Israel will cease to exist may well need to wait for a few centuries, as another major war with Israel may see several Arab nations cease to exist.

@Shadow Minister: "as another major war with Israel may see several Arab nations cease to exist."

Boy oh boy, aren't there millions who would love to see that happen sooner than later.

Israel's 'allies' 'partners' today include:

Saudi Arabia (Kingdom), Bahrain (Kingdom), Qatar (Kingdom), Oman (Kingdom), Yemen (Basket case/ISIS/Al Qeada), UAE (Kingdom), Kuwait (Kingdom), Jordan (Kingdom), Egypt (Military Junta), Turkey (Islamist Junta), Morocco (Kingdom), Tunisia (Kingdom), Algeria (can recall) and Djibouti (can't recall)?

Odd men out are Lebanon, Syria and Iraq.

Where is ISIL/Daesh operating? Syria and Iraq and Yemen.

Must be a coincidence.

Where are the Saudis, Jordanians, Qatar, Oman, Egypt, Turkey et al forces fighting on the ground?

Syria and Iraq and Yemen.

Where is the Israeli military active on the ground?

Syria.

Are any of them fighting ISIL/Daesh anywhere?

No.

What's the difference between Israel and Monarchies of the Arab world?

Nothing much.

Including who sponsors, supports, and enables Islamic Terrorism and Violence to destabilize Iraq, Syria and Yemen.

Who backs Israel, gifted them another $50 Billion?

USA

Who backs Saudi Arabia, keeps gifting them Military aid, has military bases?

USA

Saudi Arabia is not the only one with US military bases, MilComs centres, CIA Field operatives.

Who else has "boots on the ground" in Syria and Iraq but are not targeting ISIL/Daesh?

USA Mil and CIA forces.

Any other questions/comments?

-

re: "no country withdrew recognition of the Republic of South Africa."

Technically that is correct. Factually the Govt of Sth Africa was lost all global community support - took decades for the biggest players UK/USA to finally accept reality.

Do you have any besides the RSA from my list to hair split?

re: "Similarly you refer to countries and borders changing based on warfare"

Um, a few maybe at certain times, but MY point is valid anyway.

You can ignore the point if you wish. Your choice.

re: "[me] are essentially recognising the expansion of Israels borders."

Absolutely not.

No one (with brains at least) recognized Nazi Germany's expanding borders in WW2 based on warfare. Did/do you?

<smile>
-

Thomas,

Recognition is legal term conveying legitimacy, your claim that SA was no longer recognised when not one country withdrew its recognition is more than just "splitting hairs", it's pure fantasy.

That the vast majority of countries in the world recognises Israel means that its legitimacy is absolute, and whether you recognise it or not, matters not a jot.

Your next flight of fantasy is to list a string of countries that are allies and partners yet some are technically at war with Israel,

The next wild claim is that Israel is militarily involved in Syria. Bollocks

As for territory that Nazi Germany won in the war? As far as I recall, Germany lost the war and territory, but Russia expanded its borders a long way.