Yuyutsu’s reaction is reminiscent of Boswell

“Flesh in the Age of Reason” by Roy Porter has the following:

Like Johnson, Boswell was tortured by a fundamental fear of death. He sought reassurance of any kind from anyone. He harassed the dying David Hume. The sceptical philosophe’s calm at his impending demise from liver cancer drove Boswell ever more distraught: he wanted to see in the unbeliever the fear which gripped himself. In vain he tried to make Hume reveal some spark of faith. At the sceptic's imperviousness, Boswell became increasingly desperate:

“I ... felt a degree of horror, mixed with a sort of wild, strange, hurrying recollection of my excellent mother's pious instructions, of Dr. Johnson's noble lessons, and of my religious sentiments and affections during the course of my life. I was like a man in sudden danger eagerly seeking his defensive arms."

The thought of somebody dying without dread was unbearable. P. 191

same book:

Ignorance and credulity have ever been companions, and have misled and enslaved mankind; philosophy has in all ages endeavoured to oppose their progress, and to loosen the shackles they had imposed; philosophers have on this account been called unbelievers; unbelievers of what? of the fictions of fancy, of witchcraft, hobgoblins, apparitions, vampires, fairies; of the influence of stars on human actions, miracles wrought by the bones of saints, the flights of ominous birds, the predictions from the bowels of dying animals, expounders of dreams, fortune-tellers, conjurors, modern prophets, necromancy, cheiromancy, animal magnetism, metallic tractors, with endless variety of folly? These they have disbelieved and despised, but have ever bowed their hoary heads to Truth and Nature. . . .

In regard to religious matters, there is an intellectual cowardice instilled into the minds of the people from their infancy; which prevents their inquiry: credulity is made an indispensable virtue; to inquire or exert their reason in religious matters is denounced as sinful; and in the catholic church is punished with more severe penances than moral crimes. – Erasmus Darwin p. 389

Better philosophy than religion

If adults talk like this, what hope for the children.

Dear david f,

Interesting stuff. I never realised that such a desire (that being that their non-believing fellow elderly members of society fear their mortality) existed in some older theists. I supposed I would probably react the same too if I were elderly and still religious. I note a similar bewilderment displayed in some theists who ask me why I don’t just run around raping and killing people if I don’t believe in a god. I hope such people keep their beliefs.

grateful,

If adults talk like what?

<<If adults talk like this, what hope for the children.>>

Like we should appreciate the one and only life that we know we’re going to have? Like we should accept uncomfortable realities and face them head on instead of opting for comforting lies? How could speaking and thinking honestly possibly be a bad thing for future generations?

In case you haven’t noticed, from the dawn of humanity, violence has continued to decline, and never has that decline happened faster since the plummet in religious affiliation that began after the Enlightenment. Now, while I accept that correlation does not necessitate causation, it certainly puts to rest this idea that religion is a necessary force in the world.

Anyway, if you could elaborate, that would be helpful.

Dear David,

<<I value the ephemeral because that is all we have.>>

Even if that was the case, this is still irrational: take for example the statement: "I value my disease/bug/pain/slavery because that is all I have"...

<<Many humans prefer to be enslaved by the superstition and ignorance of religion because they find the realisation that there is nothing more than the ephemeral frightening>>

...superstition and ignorance induced by some bastards who unjustifiably dare call themselves "religious".

So, some people feel frightened, then are led astray by crooks, what's that to do with anything we were discussing?

<<At the same time other humans face that realisation and find the joy that is possible in this world.>>

That's an illusion - Joy is our native state. One feels relative joy, or relief, when the burdens of the world temporarily lessen. We find great refreshing joy in deep sleep (too bad our memory-recorder is off at that time) and so we should find great joy in death. But is death ephemeral? In my Hindu view, too bad it is, too bad that so long as we haven't attained God, we cannot rest forever, but eventually need to come back to this world and its pains.

---

Dear Jay,

<<You seem to be invoking that old people have a fear of dying & therefore would/should turn to a Spirit to allay that fear.>>

Where have I mentioned fear of dying?

Young people too should seek to detach themselves from the world. However, they often find it more difficult due to passion and ignorance. Older people who have more experience and less to expect from the world should usually find it easier to detach.

Yuyutsu,
Are you now claiming to be 'rational'? Previously you were trying to tell me there was a difference between truth and facts. When truth and facts must separated, then truth dies for true men.

*Sigh*

Sometimes it’s hard to not be offended by being deliberately ignored and spoken to through other people. Especially when said person goes out of their way to make a point of it (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18201#325132).

But I need to keep reminding myself that when someone to whom you were nothing but polite can no longer address you directly, then that is the greatest compliment they can pay you and the strength of your arguments. We see this in grateful now too.

Thank you, Yuyutsu. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you. I feel our relationship has achieved a higher state of being and now exists on the plane from which you look down upon us all. For direct communication is now as unnecessary as your gender. Most would consider this utterly rude and petulant, especially coming from someone who is supposed to have achieved a higher state of being than everyone else. But they don’t understand.

I am thoroughly enjoying the discussions that we’re not having, and look forward to many more in the future.