AJ: "My point was one of necessity, not choice. I don't need to read any holy scriptures to determine that there is no evidence for a god, because anything that could qualify as a god would realise that ancient texts in languages that die out is not a way to reveal oneself to the world if your existence in an issue of importance."

Point taken, although obviously people like Dr. Maurice Bucaille would disagree:

<<Maurice Bucaille, who worked as chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, was deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of Scripture and modern secular knowledge. After a decade-long study, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur’an of certain statements on physiology and reproduction. He reasoned that: "...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur’an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times…"

That year, Maurice Bucaille published La Bible, le Coran et la science. The book proved to be enormously popular and has been translated into languages spoken throughout the Muslim world. Enthusiasts consider this work as one of the most important ever on Islam and science discourse. The opponents of this approach label this trend as "Bucaillism". The book analyzes the scriptures in the light of modern scientific knowledge and identifies contradictions between established scientific facts and scriptures. The author analyzes creationism vs. evolution, astronomy, the conception in the womb, separation of water in subterranean oceanic rivers, and other issues, and attempts to document each point he makes. The general contents of The Bible, the Qur’an and Science are:

• The Old Testament – examines the origins of the Bible, describes the books of the Old Testament, highlights evidence of science in the Old Testament (i.e. creation of the world, date of creation and appearance of mankind, the flood), critically examines scientific error.

cont...

cont..

• The Gospels – explores sources and history of the text of the gospels, genealogy of Jesus, modern science and the gospels, contradictions and improbabilities in descriptions in the gospels.

• The Qur’an and Modern Science – examines the authenticity of the Qur’an, identifies scientific phenomena described in the Qur’an (creation of heavens and earth, astronomy, earth science, water cycle, animal and plant kingdoms, human reproduction).

• Qur’anic and Biblical Narrations – draws parallels between the Qur’anic and Bibilical texts and modern knowledge, dealing specifically with the narrations of the Flood and the Exodus

• Qur’an, Hadiths and Modern Science

• General Conclusions

• List of Quotations from the Qur’an

Bucaille’s other work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.>> http://www.cis-ca.org/voices/b/bucaille-mn.htm

AJ: <<The existence of free will, if it even exists at all, does absolutely nothing to prove the existence of souls, spirits, or a spiritual realm.>>

I argued that for free will to exist requires that we must have an existence that is independent of our physical form. This is implied by the following definiton

"When a choice can be made that is not determined or necessitated by prior events then we can exercise freewill. The will is free when alternative choices could have been made with the same pre-existing conditions." http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/problem/

Dear grateful, I do believe, in the Koran, it says that all illness are caused by Bad Jinns, not Viruses or Bacteria, etc. Does it not?

Regarding the early advances in Science & Medicine in the Golden Age of learning. That all stopped in the 15th. Century when the Muller's gained Power. The Age of learning came to a sudden halt & has been going backwards ever since. Has it not?

grateful,

I think I’ve sufficiently demonstrated (especially now with the help of Dan) the fact that ancient texts are not reliable evidence for gods.

I have also made my point with regards to the vague and wishy-washy verses in the Qur’an that you quoted. If you think I’m wrong, then you need to provide reasoning as to why I am wrong, if you want to counter what I’ve said. Simply stating that this Dr. Maurice Bucaille thinks that such vague verses (that could be applied to a lot of phenomena) agrees with you, is fallacious. It’s known as the Argument from Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority).

And are you seriously trying to suggest that the Old Testament got science right? It gets both the age of the Earth, and how it formed, wrong; and it mentions nothing about evolution (for reasons Rhian has already pointed out), despite evolution being a fact. The old Testament doesn’t even get history right. There is no evidence at all that Moses existed; and we know that both the Exodus and the Flood never happened.

<<I argued that for free will to exist requires that we must have an existence that is independent of our physical form. This is implied by the following definition>>

I know, and I already discredited that definition at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=18201#323963

We eventually got to the point where you were going to explain the exact way in which the soul functions to provide us with free will, because of the dilemma that brain injuries presented to your claims. Remember?

Thank you Rhian,

I could not agree more with your reply to Dan, but since I'm not a Christian I could not convincingly write the same myself.

However, the Hindu scriptures include similar stories, for example about the daemon Hiranyaksha who kidnapped planet Earth, then submerged and hidden it under the waters of the ocean. Subsequently the Lord incarnated as a boar, killed Hiranyaksha and saved the earth.

http://theindianmythology.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/varaha-avatar

I have full faith in this story and I worship the Lord in all forms, including in the form of this boar (Varaha), but this doesn't mean that the narration was meant to describe any objective/scientific/historical facts.

As a clue, water is the realm of unconsciousness, or at least an obscured consciousness. When you are under water, everything looks hazy. The name "Hiranyaksha" is derived from 'gold', thus the story is meant to tell us that gold distorts our vision. Hiranyaksha demanded that people worship him instead of God. As for the daemons, they are all habitual tendencies within our minds - in this case Greed, but then Vishnu, the aspect of God/goodness that is responsible for the sustaining of life, appears even in the least expected forms in order to kill those daemons and purify our mind.

Trying to understand mythology as material reality is childish - but then Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oDEO2twRP8