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The Forum > Article Comments > Should people be denied ‘choices’ at the end-of-life? > Comments

Should people be denied ‘choices’ at the end-of-life? : Comments

By Paul Russell, published 29/1/2016

When parts of the Australian media recently applauded the double suicide of a well-travelled, well-educated Melbourne couple who were not ill but simply growing old, I think we all need to stop and wonder where this is all going.

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Yes Paul. a quarter of a century ago my life was irreparably changed, by multiple spine fractures, which cost me my career. my love life, my marriage and my family!

Multiple spinal surgery, bone grafts and permanent metal reinforcing; and a few years later and after what some would describe as heroic rehab. My life returned to close to normal my mobility partially restored and pain free! And I still had my mental agility, but due to my history remained unemployable in any capacity!

Even so and due to my training as both a medic and paramedic, it was my privilege and pleasure to care for my aging mom in the last ten years of her life.

Some years after we buried mom, [Who paid a visit three days after she died,] I fell and broke my femur high up at the neck.

Even with intensive rehab the bones refused to knit.

although they eventually did with a very different self managed approach, that included radical bed rest.

Which is the likely source of the DVT's that then became multiple PE's and unbelievable pain at least ten times worse than in any other previous experience.

I followed that with a stroke where I opened death's door and looked into the face of evil incarnate, who it seems, offered me a deal where I could have it all, for an extremely high price!

Not for me! We all have our dreams and wishes and a means to realize them? I still hope for mine, God willing.

I have lived through some terrifying experiences in my life, but this far and away topped them all. I can't say for sure and certain that this wasn't the hallucinations of an damaged brain or real at some level, either answer is possible.

That for me permanently rules out assisted suicide, but never a living will and your last expressed wishes honored inside the current law.

We simply can't embark on the same slippery slope as Canada or Belgium, Albeit the privileged remain free to travel!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 29 January 2016 8:59:27 AM
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Of course people should be allowed to end their lives when they wish to. The current law against euthanasia is clear proof of arrogant Australian politicians' mania for control over everything and everyone.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 29 January 2016 9:40:43 AM
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Such arrogance! He doesn't think other people should have a choice because he declares such a choice illegitimate. He slants the piece to make it seem as only a minority of fortunate people want such a choice. If Paul Russell wants to continue his life no matter how much pain and suffering he is undergoing he is free to do so. If others wish to end their pain and suffering or just end their life because they have had enough they should also be free to do so.
Posted by david f, Friday, 29 January 2016 10:01:34 AM
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yep the abortion debate was all about the poor 14 year old girl who was raped and should not have to carry the rapist child. Now millions of murders later! Well how the heartless pulled on the naive and ignorance of the general public. Now they tell us that its about compassion, dignity for the dying. Believe that you are likely to be naive enough to believe in man made gw.
Posted by runner, Friday, 29 January 2016 4:27:14 PM
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//yep the abortion debate was all about the poor 14 year old girl who was raped and should not have to carry the rapist child. Now millions of murders later! Well how the heartless pulled on the naive and ignorance of the general public. Now they tell us that its about compassion, dignity for the dying. Believe that you are likely to be naive enough to believe in man made gw.//

Runner, this thread is not about abortion, nor is it about climate change. If you want to make a contribution about the actual topic of this thread - euthanasia - then I would love to hear your opinions on the subject. If you want to talk about other topics, it might be more appropriate to comment in other threads or start some of your own.

Now back to the topic.

Paul, the people pushing for voluntary euthanasia/assisted suicide want it to be permissible, not compulsory. If you want to live as long as you possibly can, good on you. You're not alone, by the way. Even in the face of agonising pain and extreme disability, it is not unusual for patients in States with voluntary euthanasia to choose to live as long as they can - the human will to survive is a basic and powerful emotion which can drive people to perform near super-human feats.

But if other people don't share your view, what harm does it do allow them the option of euthanasia/assisted suicide? It won't be mandatory - you can live out your days naturally as your God intended. And it certainly won't be some quasi-'Logan's Run' scenario where wicked doctors stalk the halls of aged care facilities trying to convince geriatrics that they're a burden on society and that they should suicide.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 29 January 2016 4:58:28 PM
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Toni
even you have enough brains to see the parallels in the arguements being put forward.
Posted by runner, Friday, 29 January 2016 5:22:07 PM
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//even you have enough brains to see the parallels in the arguements being put forward.//

You haven't put forward any arguments, runner. You've just waffled on a bit.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 29 January 2016 6:13:23 PM
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I've got an elderly mum suffering from dementia
who's stopped eating. I don't know how much
she's aware of what she's doing because she
doesn't remember anything and is confused.

I don't want her to die. I would have a problem
with her getting assistance to die.
And I'm going to help as much as I can so that
she'll live longer. Perhaps that is selfish of
me. She's not in pain and has no terminal illness.
I feel that she still has a lot of living to do -
letting her grand-children and her great, great
grandchildren get to know her better so I
shall do what I can to ensure that this happens.
Am I wrong?
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 29 January 2016 6:14:52 PM
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I don't understand the law against euthanasia. I truly believe that people should be allowed to have choices how and whether they end their lives.
Posted by EthanThomas1975, Friday, 29 January 2016 9:53:11 PM
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As Toni suggests, proponents of the right for people to make their own decisions about their own deaths are not calling for everyone to knock themselves off if they don't believe in it. If people want to suffer pain or lie in bed in nappies not knowing anything or anyone, until they die, that's up to them. But, they have no business expecting other people to do the same if they don't wish to do so. I am so sick and tired of anti-euthenasia busybodies that I wish them a long, drawn out, agonising death. I would even like to sit by their death beds after the morphine stops working, and ask them how they feel about their pompous, ignorant prating now. You shouldn't listen to crap about palliative care.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 29 January 2016 10:35:31 PM
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Foxy, I am sorry for what your mum and family are going through.
Dementia is a cruel disease.

However, every case is different, so one person's nightmare may be perfectly acceptable to others, so no one can tell you when mum has had enough of this life but her. We sometimes forget that dementia is both a mental and physical disorder.

When I was working in the dementia units, when the person suffering from dementia refuses to eat, you first rule out all physical reasons, eg have them seen by a dentist, ensure they aren't ill with something like a bladder infection or a virus, ensure they aren't constipated, have their swallowing reflex checked by a speech therapist, and ensure they aren't in pain.

Once everything else is ruled out, then ensure they are kept comfortable with medication and sit by them, touching, talking or reading to them, and let nature take its course.

My hope is that one day it will be legal for those who are in their right mind, with a diagnosed terminal illness, and with one or more unrelieved symptoms like pain, vomiting, incontinence or nausea, they should be allowed to request their doctor give them a lethal drug dose at the time and place of their pre-arranged choosing.

Anyone else who doesn't agree with this scenario is most welcome to suffer on to the bitter 'natural' end.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 30 January 2016 2:16:11 AM
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Just following on from the previous post, the attitude and values of the nursing teams on the various shifts matter. Remember that staffing is not always optimal.

All patients and particularly the elderly need a couple of close relatives to look out for their interests and be there to advocate for them as necessary.

Australia is not a world leader in attitudes to and respect for the elderly. It is a cultural thing. Governments cynically fomenting divisions and intergenerational jealousy - covers for lack of planning by government - don't help at all.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 30 January 2016 2:53:28 AM
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"These are prohibitions that have existed since our laws were written and previously, into antiquity, in the laws of nature."

We are repealing age-old prohibitions every day, for the benefit of everyone: it's called progress. And whatever the 'laws of nature' are in this respect, it's hard to see how they support keeping the infirm and suffering aged alive. You might want to check that with your local pride of lions or mob of kangaroos.

Arguments like these are invariably made out of religious convictions. What makes them hypocritical and pernicious is that the religious convictions are then hidden beneath a veneer of plausible-sounding justifications like this.
Posted by Jon J, Saturday, 30 January 2016 6:15:11 AM
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Dear Suse,

Thank You for your advice regarding my mum.

We're taking her to the doctors on Monday for
a check up.

I managed to get her to eat a piece of cake
for afternoon tea yesterday afternoon and a banana
with a cup of tea. So I made some progress.

OTB,

Thank You for your post as well.

Much appreciated.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 30 January 2016 7:49:31 AM
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There are too many cogent and believable stories of out of body experiences to simply assume that life ends when the spirit (life force) departs the corpse.

And if you can simply dismiss that with an airy wave and talk of hallucinations, read life after life, and endless evidence based reports of folks who remembered past lives even down to the daily headlines, which when checked confirmed their recollections!

And if that's not enough evidence, then what about the highly reported Australian case of a young man never ever exposed to mandarin or Chinese, waking from a long coma able to speak flawless mandarin!

And don't you dare start that waffle that goes the human brain is a wondrous mysterious thing.

Maybe so, but beyond belief to infer it has the power to teach itself the most complex language in the world while in a deep coma!

Life is our most precious gift. And old folks can be and sadly already are treated as a burden.

I want three volunteers for latrine duty, you,you, and you.

I watched as an old digger( William Riddle, former pathologist in Towoomba) who spent four years in hell, being shamefully ejected from his own home!

Being told by a young dictatorial doctor? that he couldn't go home, because he lived alone and might fall down.

And even when it was abundantly clear that he didn't want to go to a distant entirely unfamiliar nursing home, that's what happened. Choice? what choice?

Given the slippery slope, where this stuff is legal; that's how voluntary euthanasia is going to also be applied.

Particularly, I believe, when it involves valuable real estate or large bank accounts etc.

Rights what rights? Particularly when the person can be described as old, feeble and demented by doctors who may have never ever seen the person!?

Trust me, it happens.

And given anyone who wants to control how they meet their maker, already has a personal choice to make a living will! (defacto voluntary euthanasia?) Why in heaven's name do we need more?
Non religious Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 30 January 2016 9:30:55 AM
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Hi there FOXY...

I'm very sorry to hear of your Mum's dementia, and that she's stopped eating. It's really so hard to watch a loved one deteriorate, and not being able to do anything about it? If euthanasia was permitted, and I had a loved one with severe dementia and was deteriorating, I still couldn't bring myself to ask a Doctor to relieve them of their misery. Unless it was an instance of excruciating, and untreatable pain and today that's a very rare event.

The 'misery' or wretchedness I speak of, that I'd like to spare my 'loved one' from, is perhaps my own? In which case I really need to find the necessary courage and resolve, to care for them to the best of my ability, until nature takes it's course. And it's very hard to watch someone you love, slowly die. It demands immense courage.

Foxy if euthanasia were to be legalised, I'd respectfully suggest it would indeed, be selfish of you to permit medical intervention to end her life. Furthermore it's much harder for you to care for your Mum as you witness daily, symptoms of her invariable decline while she's still in your care. After all, we only have one Mum and one Dad, as such they're mighty precious to most of us!
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 30 January 2016 12:31:48 PM
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O Sung Wu "Unless it was an instance of excruciating, and untreatable pain and today that's a very rare event."

Unfortunately it is not a rare event O Sung Wu. I have seen dying people in unrelieved pain far too many times. Sometimes, the only medications left to use are anesthetic medications, which basically puts them in a coma.
That is not living, and in those cases I would readily agree to euthanasia, as do the extremely distressed relatives begging us to do it...

Rhrosty, there are good and bad people amongst the medical profession, just as there are in any job. No one wants to go into a nursing home, but to leave some poor people to slowly die in their own filth alone in their home is not an option in today's society, even if they 'refuse' to go.

Obviously, we can't physically force anyone to go into a nursing home, so in many cases, they are left in their own home until they fall and break something, then they are back in hospital unable to physically go home again.

The medical staff working in the community, like myself, are damned if they do and damned if they don't, in the case of an elderly frail person living alone.
If we suggest they may need more care than we can provide them, we are the nasty ones trying to 'lock them away in an old people's home'.

If we don't try hard to get them the care they need in a residential facility, and that person falls in their home a few minutes after we leave them, often we aren't returning until at least another 24 hours, if they are lucky. If it is winter and they break a bone, which is common, then they lie where they fall, with no warmth, food, drink, pain relief or toilet until someone eventually turns up.
You can imagine the nightmare they have been through, if they live, which is usually the case...
(cont'd)
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 30 January 2016 1:30:20 PM
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(Cont'd) So try not to judge all medical staff too harshly Rhosty, when most of us try really hard to keep people in their own homes as long as possible, but we can't willingly neglect anyone. Often, long-suffering neighbours are left with the stress.

In any case, it is often the relatives of frail elderly people who act like they really care about vulnerable people and 'support' their decisions to remain in their own home long after it is safe and practical for them to do so.
Why? Because they don't want to have to sell the old person's home (inheritance) in order to pay for the nursing home bond that the Government requires. It would be far better financially for the relatives if the old person dies at home or in hospital.

On the other hand, we also have to watch out for the relatives of aged people who don't own their own homes, and these relatives push too soon for the old person to go into care when they don't need to yet! These relatives are often sick of the responsibility as they see it.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 30 January 2016 1:40:29 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu and Suse,

We are investigating a nursing home for mum.
Simply because she needs all the extra care.
She can no longer manage on her own.
She's on a waiting list currently.
We've found a very highly-rated one with an
excellent reputation and of course my main
concern is the care that mum will receive there
with our help). I love my mum very much and will
still be involved in her care.

I don't think that I could agree to euthanasia.
But who knows what's around the corner. If she
really goes down hill and the quality of her
life is a very painful one - who knows. I know
that she would not want to be kept alive by
machines - and in pain.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 30 January 2016 2:23:14 PM
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Hi Foxy, yes it is difficult finding a good place to care for your parent, and you can imagine that it doesn't always go well, so it is good for her relatives to maintain a frequent presence at the home....just to keep the staff on their toes!

My mum has just moved to my city to live near us. She lives in an independent unit attached to a residential aged care facility. It is lovely there, with the beach just down a short pathway for her. She is still very mobile and drives a car at the age of 84.
You can imagine the staff at her village though, they remain vigilant with her because they all know me :)

Mum is not an advocate of legal voluntary euthanasia, and I respect that.
She has filled out the 'Advanced Care Directive' forms with her lawyer though, stating that if she has a catastrophic accident or illness that she is unlikely to recover from, or is in a vegetative state or similar, that she doesn't want any active treatment like antibiotics or to go on a ventilator.
I am happy to support that decision, while ensuring she is kept comfortable.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 30 January 2016 6:01:22 PM
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Hi FOXY...

I can only hope that all your careful planning you've undertaken to care for your dear Mum, works out exactly how you wish them too. Probably one of the hardest decisions families have to make is ensuring there's proper and adequate care for an aging, and unwell parent. Both of my two parents are now gone, so that decision is no longer one I need to embrace, but one I would gladly do so, if either of them had lived a little bit longer.

So many things I'd like to say to them, to explain and even qualify? Unfortunately it's all too late now, man's mortality is absolutely finite, consequently it waits for nobody?
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 30 January 2016 6:51:11 PM
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If as this article says we have no right to make a person dead
Then why do we have the right to make them alive, after an accident, a heart attack,
A drowning ,a stroke.

Thier argument that death must only be determined by nature
Falls apart right there.

if death must only ever happen as nature dictates, and we can't choose,
Then why do we think we have the right to play God by allowing
People the choice to bring them back to
Life, sometimes to cope for years with debilitating injuries or with brain damage?

If we can't play God with death then it should follow that we
Can't play God bringing back to life

People should be allowed to choose to die in the case of old age or severe illness
Young healthy people ,no! they should not be given the drugs for
Euthanasia but be given medical help for their depressed mental state.

I believe at the age of 65,70,80 on, people
Are wise enough and have enough knwledge and experience of life to
Make their own decision about ending their own life.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 30 January 2016 11:27:31 PM
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She drives a car aged 84? And can afford to maintain it and pay for the fuel bill with the 15% of her pension the nursing home or the government leaves her, Suse?

With the 15% usually reserved for personal items, clothing replacements, washing powder for the communal machine etc.

In a dated survey done by an American professor of medicine, it turns out that it costs the government $70,000.00 P.A. to keep an old person in a nursing home and a drain on the rest of society, Whereas providing more or less the same service in their home, the overwhelming preferred option, the bil is reduced to $40,000.00!

A drain being the new buzz word when referencing old folk and the budget. And given nursing homes are funded exclusively by the federal government and in home aged care shared responsibility and a drain on state health budgets, there seems to be a covert imperative in state hospitals etc to get sick folks into nursing home care?

Where all too often the place is woefully understaffed and the possible source of horror stories of old folk left to lie in soiled nappies and urine soaked bedding for hours, if not days? Well they should have complained or used the(hidden or out of reach) buzzer!

If you want to make a case for compulsory euthanasia, that's it!

After all, the not for profit home being mostly a thing of the past and millionaires making fortunes from them?

Not to worry, given the baby boomers will soon make old folk a very large voting demographic.

Moreover some of us have long memories and are very outspoken and literate.

Choices about how to end your life?

How about a few connected to living it with just a modicum of quality! After all, very few have offspring as devoted and caring as you!?
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 31 January 2016 8:07:00 AM
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Suseonline, " She lives in an independent unit attached to a residential aged care facility. It is lovely there, with the beach just down a short pathway for her. She is still very mobile and drives a car at the age of 84"

Good for her!

Suseonline, "She has filled out the 'Advanced Care Directive' forms with her lawyer though, stating that if she has a catastrophic accident or illness that she is unlikely to recover from, or is in a vegetative state or similar, that she doesn't want any active treatment like antibiotics or to go on a ventilator"

Fair enough too.

However a lot, almost everything, depends on the carer relative to be competent, watchful and diligent to ensure that all involved in the elder's care are positive and dutiful at all times. In the past year alone I have been close enough to elders in hospital to witness the very different daily life and expectations of a patient where the occasional nurse/nursing team has/have formed a negative opinion of the patient's future. Self-fulfilling prophecies do happen. Australia is not the very best example in the world of respect for elders and their 'usefulness'.

In the last instance for example, the children, grandchildren and grandchildren have their beloved and valuable nineties 'Ma' back at home and getting about, now semi-independent but still fully mentally on the ball and enjoying the company. Not the same person who was going rapidly downhill on a hospital bed with Endone and other tabs from dusk to dawn.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 31 January 2016 8:45:49 AM
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My mother had to have an operation to remove a goitre, which had compromised a carotid artery.

She apparently died on the operating table and was able to describe the activities of the staff including the quick surgical response, which included cutting her open with a miniature circular saw and physically massaging her heart.

Now some of what she witnessed and described in great detail, could be explained by her overhearing some of the conversations at a subconscious level and simply filling in the gaps from a very fertile imagination?

Just not all of it, including the otherwise invisible bald spot on top of the senior surgeon's head.

And if you have trouble with that then how about the fact that her recognisable spirit appearing to me for a few moments, three days after we buried her, as an image of effulgent light, or like moonlight shining on silver.

Mine and her eyewitness accounts, all of which can be explained away if inconvenient, by hallucinations of one sort or another, and given that is possible.

It behooves those of us with still open minds to include the possibility of the opposite or an actual witnessed events?

Something claimed in a book I read, titled life after life, where claimants recount credible evidence based accounts of remembered past lives, where there memories included recoverable evidence like headline news and stuff only supported by verifiable eyewitness accounts.

All of which seems to endorse a belief that you can't cheat the grim reaper, your predetermined destiny, or just being forced to repeat the lessons needed to expunge the black spots from your soul, as might be if in a past life you were a cruel and vicious nazi guard in some inhuman jewish prison camp or worse, and all you think of as unendurable suffering, just complete justice.

THerefore no to euthanasia and yes to just copping your lumps as they come.
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 31 January 2016 10:52:42 AM
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Rhrosty , my mum is in an independent unit, not the nursing home. I hope she never goes into the nursing home! She owns the unit, so doesn't have to pay any rent etc, which is what seems to make some pensioners very poor.

Only about 5% of the elderly end up in nursing homes, and yes, the Government much prefers they stay at home as long as possible, so I doubt there is any conspiracy to get all the elderly into nursing homes. If an elderly person living alone falls at home, and doesn't have an alert necklace or bracelet, and lays there for days maybe, the first people the relatives or friends blame are the community nurses, by asking why we hadn't placed them in 'safe' care in a nursing home?

So...damned if we do and damned if we don't. We do the best we can with the limited resources we have.

Hospitals are not nursing homes, and don't care for the elderly as well as nursing homes unless they are in an acute stage of illness. However, there aren't enough nursing home beds available, so the ones who physically can't go home if they live alone must stay in the hospital, sometimes for many months. Not everyone has relatives willing to care for them at their homes.

These days, nursing homes must meet stringent guidelines set down by the health department, and they send auditors to do 'spot checks' at any time, so standards are much improved these days.

Naturally, there will always be problems that occur in all nursing homes, because the small amount of money the Government spends on them leads them to have to use very low paid carers rather than trained nurses. The nurses they do have are overworked, with often one nurse to a hundred residents, but this is slowly changing as residents and their families report homes to the health department.
Hopefully, they will listen.
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 31 January 2016 11:14:43 AM
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I was in the system very recently and I was told in no uncertain terms, that I was a nursing home patient.

With one aping a demented patient in my presence as her idea of humor; and off course the staff wouldn't ever do that, or go rummaging through a patient's personal possessions for anything of value, it just doesn't occur. Neither does the fiercely CCTV installations that might just expose some of this behavior?

My father was in relatively good physical health and a tad over 12 stone when he went in, and just over 7 the day he died.

We seem to have people in service, whose attitude seems to be assist them go as quickly as possible without any life prolonging help or possibly appropriate antibiotics?

I was quite vehemently verbally abused for asking for a bottle, and when the inevitable happened and the requested service turned up half an hour later. I was told that was what nappies were for!

A wet roommate who had just had a change, was simply refused a service on the grounds he'd just had one. Would that it's an isolated example. Patients have no control over staff numbers or the routine workload!

Where did you leave the guide dog or your white cane, or do you have sergeant schultz syndrome?

There may well not be a conspiracy, and I don't see how you connected the dots to make seem to say that, but my personal experience at the hands of queensland health would support my claim.

Funding is a top priority it would seem, and one is limited to 35 days of care to recover from a stroke, ready or not.

After that you can be declared a nursing home patient; given that's where the only public funding is!

Hardly the point, when abuse or neglect shouldn't ever happen and still does, because of the apologists inside the tent 24/7?

Who from where I stand should be the ones exposing inexcusable behavior rather than occasionally visiting family!
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 31 January 2016 4:24:21 PM
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Rhrosty,

Google 'patient advocates'. I don't know anything about the services. Interested in what you make of them.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 31 January 2016 5:25:51 PM
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Good evening to you RHROSTY...

Just before I retired I was tasked with a Coroner's job concerning a death at a well known Retirement conglomerate in the western suburbs of Sydney. Your statement where you assert inter alia '...we seem to have people in service who's attitude it is, to assist them to go as quickly as possible without any life prolonging help or possibly appropriate antibotics...', resonated with me?

There were certain inexplicable parallels with the matter we were examining, in fact your observations appeared to be almost analogous with some of the facts we'd deduced, and were subsequently contained in our brief?

It should be stressed herein, DPP declined to run with our matter, which was the correct course of action in my view, and I was the case officer. Furthermore as a result of our involvement a number of staff were summarily dismissed, including the Director or Nursing.

An aside - those employed as nursing aides, many from S.E. Asia, specifically the Philippines, proved to be exemplary in the discharge of their duties, and were profoundly caring whenever they interacted with their elderly patients, notwithstanding some patients proved difficult and contrary whenever they're asked to comply with their treatment protocols. I formed this view as a result of my observations, pursuant to their daily activities. And was subsequently included in the Brief I prepared for the Coroner.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 31 January 2016 7:24:52 PM
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Yes Rhrosty, I agree with Onthebeach.
If you are treated badly in any health facility you should report it to the relevant authorities.

Despite a poor opinion of medical staff resonating from both you and Onthebeach, I have had the the pleasure of working with many very good, caring nurses over the years. I have also worked with very bad nurses, and have reported them and had them dismissed myself.

No one wants to go to a nursing home, but I work as a community nurse and thus it is in my best interests to keep clients at home as long as possible. No one denies the elderly antibiotics that I have seen...IF they want active treatment for themselves....IF they want to continue living a poor excuse for a life. Many don't want to, believe me.

Don't worry, I won't correspond with you re this subject anymore, as I can see you very angry about your predicament. You are not alone there...
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 31 January 2016 8:17:28 PM
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My beloved grandmother also had a goitre operation and died two days later. She lived in a mountainous region of the United States, the Adirondacks. In such regions people generally don't get enough iodine in their diet, and goitres result. Now goitres are rare because salt is routinely iodised. That is one very desirable food additive.

My mother went into a nursing home because my father was physically unable to lift her when she had fainting spells and would collapse on the floor. At first her mind was good. She was labeled antisocial because she preferred to sit in her room and read rather than join the others and watch the soaps on daytime TV. She was not a soap fan before she went into the nursing home but was expected to become one. The staff talked to her as though she were a child, "We'll bring you a rubber duckie for your bath." My father was lucky enough to be independent all his life. He felt bad one afternoon and checked into a hospital. He died that night and was never an inmate of a nursing home. He lived on the sixth floor of an apartment building and at 92 would use the stairs rather than the elevator. Said it was better to wear out than rust out.

I am 90, and my wife is 79. I am still healthy - just have hay fever and am increasingly deaf. She is arthritic, has heart problems and hobbles around with the help of a cane. Bluecare, a Uniting Church agency, sends someone to us every couple weeks to vacuum, mop and generally clean. That is a great help. I do most of the hanging and taking down laundry and am learning to cook.

We belong to Voluntary Euthanasia of Queensland. If we could no longer live independently and had to go to a nursing home we would prefer to end it all. At least that's how we feel at this time.

I am quite happy to have lasted this long.
Posted by david f, Sunday, 31 January 2016 10:09:12 PM
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Suseonline, "Despite a poor opinion of medical staff resonating from both you and Onthebeach"

I really don't know how you arrived at that, but it is wrong. I have a high opinion and high expectations of professions and medical is no different. We have a number of medical specialists in the family. I usually don't correct opinions directed at me personally
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 1 February 2016 6:48:15 AM
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Onthebeach. Ditto!

Suse, I'm not angry just tired to the point of outrage with all the excuse making and people who just pretend to care or feign interest.

I wasn't attacking you personally just using satire or black humor to make some points for those for whom the cap fits?

Complain?

What to a robot or the music channel? or the screaming SSES fax machine! The only advertized access line!

Even if I find a human who actually wants to listen? What about the next time I need to go to hospital and find I'm at the complete power of someone with a grudge and and access to some very powerful medications.

Oh dear, he was frail and elderly, given to panic attacks? Assumptions trumping fact?

We all know that there are often unexplained deaths in hospitals, where some "nurses" see it as their duty to turn down the life supporting oxygen and just because there's no evidence of cyanosis, ignoring as seems their want? That oxygen is implicated in all healing.

And don't get me started on statins, (management medicine) [substitutes for nutritional medicine,] where in a recent double blind, the patients who weren't given the placebo, all to a generic man, suffered from previously unknown and often debilitating cognitive impairment!

And in my view too high a price to pay for an extra nine months of existence along with the associated complete loss of any shadow of independance!

My opinion of you formed over the course of many chats, is that you are one of the angels who just love caring for folks, and are like me, a warrior social justice advocate?

And I apologize if my dark humor wasn't quite to your taste.

In my experience, the main problem with really decent folk is they tend to judge others by their often impeccable standards, and therefore miss some important signals?

I'm with O sung here, inasmuch as there are too many unexplained deaths in care, just dismissed as par for the course in old folk in aged care!
Bring on securitized CCTV! Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 1 February 2016 8:13:22 AM
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Good afternoon to you DAVID F...

You know that I have an enormously high opinion of you DAVID F personally, together with an immense respect for that intellect of yours. It's for this reason I sincerely hope at age ninety, and your good wife at age seventy nine, both of you continue to enjoy a reasonable level of health, and remain in fine fettle and mentally competent, as circumstances permit.

Moreover I sincerely hope you manage to escape the fiscal clutches of some of these nefarious nursing homes, and for many years to come. I'm of similar mind to you, there's no way I'll allow my miserable carcass to be consigned into the care of some '3rd person' speaking staff, of any nursing home, for the similar reasons to you I expect?

In fact I'm somewhat more fortunate then you perhaps DAVID F, I have a friend, who'll step in if need be, and take my side should any well meaning relative wish to deposit me into the care, custody, and control a nursing home, (aka; God's waiting room) his name; Sturm RUGER Esq.
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 1 February 2016 2:21:46 PM
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I would disagree...

Simple reason is that sooner or later people will start to overuse such a possibility, claiming they want to end their lives due to some negligible and stupid reasons, such as simply getting old, getting bored, having a bad day and so on...it might sound crazy, but unfortuantely, we as a species do not have much of common sense and we will certainly do this.
Posted by JDavis89, Monday, 1 February 2016 5:55:07 PM
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Dear JDavis89,

What may seem a negligible and stupid reason to you may seem reasonable to someone else. it should not be up to you or anybody else to decide for someone else who wants to end their life.
Posted by david f, Monday, 1 February 2016 7:32:31 PM
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