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The Forum > Article Comments > The Swan isn't dying yet > Comments

The Swan isn't dying yet : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 13/1/2016

My criticism of the rationalists, the humanists and the secularists is their desire for a society in which the sacred is no more.

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Hi Geoff,

I always suspect that people who go on about the evils of religion, as if that is its only legacy, haven't really got over it yet :)

There are no gods, Geoff - put it behind you and get on with understanding history more fully.

Think of the history of religion as an old rubbish tip: there are valuable bits and pieces there that you can kick over if you keep looking, even in the midst of the stench.

[People don't do that any more, which is a pity, it as one of my childhood pleasures. As well as stepping on broken bottles.]

So, where does your ethical basis come from, Geoff ? Out of thin air ? Like it or not, all of us in the West derive at least some of our basic principles from long-gone origins, and they include, unintentionally, some Christian principles, along with other human constructions, some very bitterly fought over. I don't think that we are conceding anything to accept that.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 13 January 2016 2:07:21 PM
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evolution, big bang and gw. And they have the hide to be critical about faith. Oh well that's what dumbing down does for you.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 13 January 2016 2:13:46 PM
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Dear Joe,

"To Abdallah El Zaquir, King of Granada, .... to be assigned certain Taas and domains, to enable him to live as befitted his birth; these he was himself to select in the Alpuxarras."

So these Spaniards were your teachers, where you learned how to treat religion!

I find this cunning attitude of yours more disturbing than that of some other blunt and hot-headed atheists in this forum: no you won't kill religion and oppress the religious - instead you would tame it and turn it into a pet for people's amusement, dress it with a symbolic cultural role to cover its stark nudity and build those grandfathers and grandmothers nice and comfortable nursing homes offering them "sweet dreams".

Unfortunately, you succeeded in taming Peter Sellick, who now wags his tail to his humanist masters: "I'm nice, I bring you culture, I bring you art, I bring you music, I bring you purpose, I bring you order, so please be nice to me" - but you won't be able to tame me, because I care for nothing less than God and have no need for these cultural trinkets on the way!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 13 January 2016 2:49:44 PM
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Hi Joe. I agree with you, I just don't believe the Christian church and its so called teachings have a monopoly on the outcome of how each individual thinks and acts. There is no doubt we are mostly, in the main, influenced by it here in Australia, but as we grow and develop many other influences teach us many other things. Religion, in my view, is a straw man, I just find it odd that people can follow it so blindly without understanding its origins.

Runner, if you would like to learn where your religion comes from, please watch the following linked movie, you only need to watch part one (I) which starts at about minute 3.00 and goes for about ten minutes. I dare you to. Let me know your thoughts after, perhaps you can explain you rigid faith following the revelations this important movie contains!
http://youtu.be/pTbIu8Zeqp0

Cheers Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Wednesday, 13 January 2016 2:59:53 PM
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Loudmouth(Joe) in the case of Humans it was almost certainly ethical behavior first rationalisation later ( Ie invention of religion).

We are a herd animal and therefore have evolved patterns of behavior to make the herd successful. Most of our behavior is governed by these and we often justify our actions afterwards.
The so called golden rule is something that is part of our make up.

Hey Peter, aren't you happy you have Runner on your side!
Posted by Cobber the hound, Wednesday, 13 January 2016 3:09:45 PM
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.

Dear Peter,

.

You wrote :

« My criticism of the rationalists, the humanists and the secularists is their desire for a society in which the sacred is no more »
.

I note that you did not include atheists in your list !

The OED definition of “secularist” is :

« A person who advocates separation of the state from religious institutions »

This definition by no means excludes people of religious faith, including yourself, from being secularists.

The term “secularism” was coined by a British co-operative newspaper editor, George Holyoake in 1851, to describe his views on promoting a social order separate from religion, without actively dismissing or criticizing religious belief (cf. secularism in Wikipedia).

No doubt, you too are a secularist, Peter, just like everybody else in Australia - apart from the odd exception, of course. I honestly can’t imagine that, as a deacon of the Anglican Church, you are seriously advocating that Australia should become a theocracy such as Iran or the Vatican City or, perhaps, even Saudi Arabia.

But please correct me if you are !
.

You also wrote :

« Do away with the sacred and you will do away with the centre of art in all its manifestations. … It [art]… has capitulated to the secularist notion that the world is superficially understandable »

Online Etymology dictionary definition of “sacred” :

- from Old Latin "saceres", from PIE root *sak- "to sanctify”

Online Etymology dictionary definition of “sanctify” :

- from sanctus "holy", transferred sense of "to render worthy of respect" is from c. 1600

A great deal of visual art “worthy of respect” has been created by renowned atheists such as Francis Bacon, Delacroix, Matisse, Picasso, Monet, etc. ...

So-called “sacred” art (revered and respected, entitled to veneration) is not just limited to religious art.

There are some things in life that we hold “sacred” that have nothing to do with religion.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Thursday, 14 January 2016 2:18:51 AM
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