Disagree! Handing back the purloined palestinian land is the best place to start as is the end of endless new settlements that only operate to keep the israeli arab from controlling the outcome of national elections, by sheer weight of voting numbers!

And only prevented by new settlements and new jewish arrivals?

And bound to continue as long as Netanyahu remains in power?

Honestly,I believe that man would make a deal with the devil, to stay in power, and as long as he does, there will be no agreement, no end to the dispossession; the real cause of the resistance, and no end to new Jewish settlements, on land which they have no God given superior right to, than those they summarily dispossess.
Rhrosty.

Ah David of the Propaganda Dept springs to life as they discover that fewer and fewer are falling for the same old Israeli rubbish,how many Settler Terrorists have been brought or if the IDF like you and the Israeli Courts seem to forget them or sentence them to probation or just let em walk.
Good luck putting lipstick on the Israeli occupation forces/Settlers/Very biased Legal system, I see the anniversary of Sykes-Pocot and Balfour declaration is coming up,do you think the English & French will celebrate the massive theft of land,water that occurred and is still going on, or did the mythical Bible say it was OK.
You and the murderous IDF and Settlers will be the only ones as the rest will be to ashamed

"500000 Jews will not voluntarily vacate their homes nor abandon their livelihoods in the West Bank and East Jerusalem to satisfy these racist and totally unacceptable PLO territorial demands – a major stumbling block to successfully concluding any negotiated agreement."

Nor should they be told to vacate their homes: they should be asked politely and offered financial compensation if they are willing to leave peacefully, but otherwise they should be allowed to stay where they are as Israel withdraws and leaves them to their own devices.

The racist (and insincere) territorial demands of the PLO are not even relevant - Israel should withdraw for its own good, nothing to do with those stupid so-called Palestinians. It should withdraw even if they never existed.

Nor is there any need for a negotiated agreement - Israel should just leave that cursed place, it needs permission from no-one!

---

Dear Rhrosty,

Your assumption that Netanyahu is in power indicates that you know little about Israel. Binyamin Netanyahu has always been a hostage to his wife, Sarah, who demanded him to become and remain prime-minister. He shivers like a leaf in the wind in her presence and indeed would make a deal with the devil to please her. He doesn't personally care about politics or Israel, not even about the settlements: if it was up to him then he would still be living in America. Sarah, in turn, needs Binyamin to be Israel's PM for the perks, to repair their shaky finances and to prevent the police from investigating some of her earlier offences.

I don't know much about this 'war' between the Israelis and Palestinians, so I read up on it. I was shocked to see how many people have died over the years, and especially those deaths of children.

What surprised me most though was the huge numbers of Palestinian deaths compared to the Israeli deaths. Mostly it was more than 10 times that of Israel up until 2011, in the list I read on Wikipedia.
From reading this article by Mr. Singer, one would think it was the other way around! Israel seems to do more than it's fair share of violence, as far as I can see.

David,

Neither the PLO nor Hamas give a crap for the people they no longer represent nor have they any desire to relinquish power.

Dear Yuyutsu, so much intensely intimate knowledge? How come? Do you have a bug in Netanyahu's bedroom?

Even if what you say is true, it's no excuse and or, just another form of the dismal failed Nuremberg defence, of, I was only following orders, and therefore worthless as is a "puppet man" controlled by a woman!

If what you say is true, then it is time for this excuse for a man grew a set of testicals and a mind of his own, so he can own his own behavior and not do what seems to be a way of life in the Middle East; and hide behind woman's petticoats while perpetrating the most obscene atrocities.
Best wishes for the festive season.
Rhrosty.

This "sorry" story began when Israel came into existence, as result of a long line of prior "sorry" stories.

That so many Palestinians were "persuaded" to depart created a newer "sorry" story.

The day to day living conditions for many Palestinians, after decades as "refugees", since "persuaded" to flee, each year creates newer "sorry" stories.

To "persuade" each victim from this historic line of "sorry" stories of believed wrongs, whether claims against Israeli, Arab, and others only maintains the suffering.

To resolve such long history of wrongs almost impossible.

Possible is to resolve where most prepared to accept as a settlement which sets aside further claims.

Challenge remains to isolate those determined for revenge so maintain suffering, rather than accept compensation.

To resolve depends on reasonable compensation of believed wrongs.

Unreasonable compensation claims by "authorities" a serious barrier to reasonable satisfaction.

Compensation retained by "authorities" unlikely to help.

Only ESSENTIAL is ongoing discussion towards agreement to settle claims.

.

Yuyutsu,
"Nor should they be told to vacate their homes: they should be asked politely and offered financial compensation if they are willing to leave peacefully, but otherwise they should be allowed to stay where they are as Israel withdraws and leaves them to their own devices."

Do you know the reasons Israel was allowed to join the UN?
They are supposed to give Palestinians free right of return as well as compensate any other Palestinian who loses their home.

What they deserve, is to reap what they sow.
They deserve remote controlled bulldozers bulldozing their homes without notice, and their crops and wells poisoned, and their children deliberately murdered without cause, just as Israel does to them.

Fairs fair.

Dear Critic,

<<Do you know the reasons Israel was allowed to join the UN?>>

You call this a privilege? it's only a liability!

<<They are supposed to give Palestinians free right of return as well as compensate any other Palestinian who loses their home.>>

Those out of the so-called "Palestinians" who are truly refugees should indeed be compensated and those who do not wish ill for Israel should indeed be allowed to return. This though has nothing to do with the stupid UN.

This whole issue of refugees is a mixed bag. You should understand that 1948 was chaotic and Israel had no central policy regarding the Arab population, thus it was left to the army and each captain in the Israeli army made their own policy regarding the Arabs in his area: some allowed them to stay, some even encouraged and pleaded with them to stay while others expelled them. Many of the so-called "refugees" left because Arab militias told them: "leave your home with us for a couple of weeks so you won't get hurt while we clear out the Jews, then you will return and have their homes too". Many indeed fled, never to return, because they knew that those militias would rape their women, not because of Israel.

<<They deserve remote controlled bulldozers bulldozing their homes without notice>>

Assuming you refer to the settlers, I think they do, but Israel should act wisely as it does not deserve a civil war with their supporters. You are welcome to send those bulldozers yourself, yet as far as Israel is concerned, this would be an internal Palestinian affair between radical Jews and radical Muslims and Israel should not intervene in it outside its own borders.

Hey Yuyutsu,
What I was saying is that the Palestinians should be the ones to have remote controlled bulldozers.
And since Israels response would be a bombing campaign against women and children I guess we should politely ask Putin if he will send them the S-400's... a purely defensive weapon of course.
http://youtu.be/qMO0F19Gmpk

Here's what I really think.
My honest opinion is that Israel went about it the wrong way FROM DAY 1.
BY DAY 2, they had effectively pissed the Palestinians off by their underhanded actions and rightly gave them a legitimate reason to fight back.

We're still going around in circles nearly 70yrs later.
I could say more, but I really don't think I have to.

Dear Critic,

<<My honest opinion is that Israel went about it the wrong way FROM DAY 1.>>

What is wrong is the concept of "nation". Israel is guilty of that, but so is Australia and many others and so are those among the Palestinians who want to make that same error themselves. Only s/he who is unaffected by this vice may throw stones from their armchair at those that are.

Within that framework, there were all manner and all shades of rights and wrongs committed by both sides in 1948. Same in Australia, it's human nature.

<<BY DAY 2, they had effectively pissed the Palestinians off>>

Actually, within that framework of nationalism, Israel had no other choice in 1967 but to fight back and actually, those who now call themselves "Palestinians" were happy at the time with Israel's occupation: during the first few years they had more safety and prosperity than ever before. They were all free to enter and work in Israel and Israelis provided them with great tourism. I am not saying it was perfect then - not at all, but overall better for them than ever. I was there, saw them with mine own eyes and at the time "pissed" was the last trait one could ever describe them with.

Things did change around 1975-1976 when Jewish settlements began.

Israel's mistake was not in fighting and conquering those territories, but in keeping them and settling there long after the military necessity subsided.

Well I read that back in 1948 they were poisoning the Palestinian wells in order to drive them off the land and stop them returning to their villages.
This morning I read that Israel are continuing to poison Palestinian crops in order to drive them off the land.
http://www.imemc.org/article/74453

So what exactly has changed in nearly 70 years?

AC,

No wonder you spout such drivel when you read such rubbish.

I may say some things that others disagree with but I almost never say something without having a link to reference it, and I'm pretty sure most people here should know that by now.

Heres a better quality link to Israels poisoning of Palestinian crops.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-crimes-israeli-planes-spray-crop-killing-chemicals-on-gaza-farms/5498127

Here's the link to the story in regards to poisoning wells in 1948.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html

You only attack me because I bring up truths you don't like, not that I'm necessarily wrong...
Then usually the pro-Israel person will argue the merits of whatever being presented saying "You can't prove that, It's all lies",
Then they instead attack the person who said it... screaming "Hiterite; Holocaust denier; and Anti-Semite" in an attempt to use some form of political correctness to bully a person into not speaking their mind or voicing criticisms of Israel...

Its like a cracked record mate.. A broken violin..
If you think that's working for you go right ahead.
I think its all getting a bit old already.

AC,

Seriously, what a pile of crap.

Posting unsubstantiated polemics from pro Palestinian blogs has no credibility. If that is your sole source of information no wonder you write such drivel.

Get a life.

The reality is complex, full of mistakes and unintended tragedies. The truth is somewhere in between where no side is right. The following link to an Israeli site indicates that the poisoning indeed occurred, but was unintentional: http://972mag.com/idf-admits-spraying-herbicides-inside-the-gaza-strip/115290/

SM,
How predictable..
I said what you were going to do in advance and you still couldn't help yourself; went and did it anyway, LOL.

From my experience, its the Pro-Israel side that's more likely to act intolerantly and engage in hate speech against others who are just as entitled to voice their opinions as anyone else.
That is, in the countries where the Israel lobby hasn't already outlawed free speech.

No, Israeli's would never engage in discrimination against others would they?
They just accuse everyone else of it, and most of the time without cause, and especially not against Arab Jews right?
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.695633

And No Israel would never ever do anything to harm the Palestinians or inflame tensions with them either would they?
They'd never deliberately target women children and hospitals? - No.

The fact that Israel wont let UN human rights inspectors into Gaza and one just gave up and resigned after 2 years waiting for a visa doesn't say anything at all does it?
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/mideast/2016/01/05/un-envoy-resigns-in-israel-access-row.html
No its all lies and propaganda to smear the good name of Israel by racists...

Whatever you need to tell yourself so you can keep believing your own garbage hey.

Yuyutsu,
"The reality is complex, full of mistakes and unintended tragedies. The truth is somewhere in between where no side is right."

Now we're getting closer to the truth.
But while you say no side is right, I think that clearly one side was wrong, first.

Unintentional? Come on.
420 acres of farming land sprayed numerous times by the IDF and they state it is to "enable security operations" some of which is along the Palestinian side of the border fence and you are willing to believe it may be an accident?
Really you can't be that gullible.
Even the link you provided pretty much stated they did it deliberately.

Y,

What I don't get about these pro Palestinian fanatics is that they try desperately to pretend that the predicament in Gaza has nothing to do with the murderous Hamas tyranny in place, that continuously subjugates the people there and routinely murders anyone that dissents or is gay, female etc.

Just yesterday Hamas fired rockets at Israel in breach of the ceasefire and were "surprised" when Israel retaliated.

These bigots have no intention of improving the lot of the Palestinians, as their sole intent is to harm Israel. Until I hear one of them admit that Hamas has to take responsibility and actually come to the peace table, the fighting will continue indefinitely.

Dear Critic,

You write about the "Pro-Israel side" - well I am on that side, I am pro Israel myself, only that I believe that a strong Israel is a moral one, so I care that Israel sticks to the highest moral standards. Specifically, this means that force may only be used when it is necessary in self-defence and not for any other ambitions.

I am not privy to the specific security requirements on that border and I am not privy to the intentions of those who decided on the spraying, but unless another evidence comes up, I must give them the benefit of the doubt that there was no intention to destroy crops. I find it believable that terrorists could be hiding in the bushes along the fence or quickly emerge out of tunnels there and attack, so that clearing those bushes may well have been a security need. I would be very disappointed with Israel if that was not the case.

---

Dear Shadow Minister,

I fully agree, but the Palestinians are a basket-case beyond hope so I am not even inspired to try and fix their manners.

Hey Yuyutsu,
Yeah I know what side you're on, and I can appreciate that you care about Israel being a moral nation and that it sticks to the highest moral standards.

I too would expect them to have a buffer zone along the fence, and though I oppose the occupation and what it stands for even I would agree that killing crops along a buffer zone along the fence would make good sense from a security point of view, and I also agree that it would be foolish not to do so.

What I honestly don't get about the typical Pro-Israel supporters is how they call Palestinians terrorists and place no value at all on the kind of life it would be for someone who was Palestinian and lived through 4 generations of your family and people under occupation and being persecuted simply for living on a certain patch of land Israel decided it wanted to resettle and re-establish its nation on.

No one seems to ever acknowledge that they have a right to resist whilst under occupation.

Thankfully I'm not Palestinian but if I was, I wonder if I too would be filled with hatred and resentment for what Israel has done.

These young Palestinians you call terrorists - are they not just regular young people that know nothing more than generations of oppression for their own people whilst everyone else lives better lives?
Running around stabbing people knowing full well they are most likely going to be killed, but are at their wits end and don't care?
That they cannot even marry or start a family without a job and have little hope for a decent future?
That all they would ever hear from their own people are stories of persecution and suffering?
That they weren't born terrorists, the conditions and mentality they live under itself helped them become terrorists?
And then, is occupation itself not a form of terror?

And tell me Pro-Israel side, does anyone on this planet NOT have a right to stand up to and resist oppression by others?

Yuyutsu,

There are citizens from both Israel and Palestine, and other countries, that in my view (house individual people) or "basket cases" that are beyond hope.

This is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean that I side, or I consider all people are the same. Personally, I would like do more, but unfortunately, I am not skilled in the physical act of basket weaving.

So I believe a newer form of "basket weaving" is needed. Many individuals, have created a "basket case" to house negative experiences, and this has become a habitual pattern to continue to pile more negative experiences into such a basket.

Such baskets are then used for hatred, violence, what some describe as low standards and limited respect for basic human rights or free speech.

What is not understood, is when some people are constantly in a place of re-living negative experiences from others, it can become difficult to change, until we (as individuals) are willing lay an old basket (to its end) and be willing to weave one (a new basket) in an emotional, spiritual or in an individual context.

Recognising that happiness is a learned behaviour, it is vital that giving back to communities and sending positive messages (that flow from that) will leave a legacy that will live on far longer than a lot of individuals alive today - and this (in my view) is a vital step to take on.

Whilst this is a challenge, the United Nations, yourself, community organisations, government and people (worldwide) can contribute positively in this context. Future generations will see the benefits.

So encourage as many as possible to get basket weaving!

Dear Critic,

Surely one should be sorry for the Palestinians, but what could one practically do about it?

I wish that Palestinians would actually resist the occupation, but they rarely ever did. Well we know that they made a lot of commotion, we know that they tried to terrorise the Israelis and kill as many they could, both within and outside Israel, but all they targeted was Israel instead of its occupation and effectively their impulsive actions only prolonged and deepened the occupation.

Had they been peaceful instead, had they used diplomacy instead, had they done just 1% of what Gandhi did, had they even accepted Israeli offers for 97% withdrawal (then continued to strive to get the remaining 3%), then Israel would long be out of there. So sad!

Had the Palestinians of Eastern Jerusalem took the offer and became Israeli citizens, they could have turned the tide and voted for ending the occupation. Sadly they didn't.

Instead, besides useless violence they used the most treacherous weapon that harms themselves far more than their enemies: the womb! As a result, the ones in Gaza are now trapped and will never have a space to breath fresh air. Even if they all miraculously reformed and turned into angels, they have done themselves in becoming so crowded that nobody will ever be able to help them.

Does one have a right to be stupid and hit their own foot with a hammer on the pretext of trying to drive a nail?

There were a few Palestinians who did act wisely between 1949 and 1967, individual refugee families who just crossed the border at night or as tourists and remained in Israel. So long as they did so quietly, maintained a low profile and were not involved in crime, they were secretly allowed to stay in Israel and are now Israeli citizens. This is what I call wise resistance, the others are either fools or they simply, while verbally talking against it and shedding false tears, prefer the occupation and use it for other ends.

(continued...)

(...continued)

Yes, an occupation that lasts even one minute beyond what is militarily necessary, is wrong. Yes, allowing civilians into a military occupied zone is wrong, let alone allowing them to settle there. Any wrong instils fear and thus can technically be termed "terrorism", but that would devalue the meaning of that word, commonly used today to describe the random murder of innocent civilians while they go about their day.

---

Dear Nathan,

Thank you for your nice thoughts.

Unfortunately, by now even if everyone was thinking positively, one couldn't ignore the sheer numbers of people. The people of Gaza gambled on their own lives where their only and unrealistic chance of survival was by conquering Israel, killing its population and taking its place. Obviously they lost and tragically now there is physically no longer enough space for everyone to live.

AC,

Since the 1940s, the palestinian attacks have largely been targeted at civilians to create terror. That makes them terrorists, and Hamas is recognised worldwide as such.

Israelis target military personnel and equipment, generally in response to attacks from Hamas.

There may be some truth to some of the things you say Yuyutsu, though I think more recently Israel itself acts in a manner that purposely scuppers any peace deal anytime the is an opportunity for it to happen.

Shadow Minister, I still think all people have the right to resist and oppose living under oppression, and I do genuinely feel sorry for any innocent Jewish person that has someones else's anger taken out on them, but I feel even more sorry for the Palestinians that they are in this position that they need to lash out at all.

AC,

All people have the right to peaceful resistance. Israel has the right to respond to violent acts against Jewish civilians.

No not peaceful resistance. Measured Resistance.
In the security industry you have the right to defend yourself with equal opposite force.
Where does it say that if you bulldoze my home and deliberately kill my children for no reason at all that I am permitted to protest but I must do so peacefully?
Your argument for 'peaceful resistance' only has merit if the general consensus is that the people in question are supposed to live under oppression, under the lash, and like animals.
Your argument spews inequality and discrimination and is not in touch with reality.