Hi Grateful,

One of the problems with an 'appeal to authority' is that it means nothing to anybody for whom that 'authority' is an idiot.

So what do YOU think, Grateful ? What have YOU made out of what you have read, experienced, seen, discussed - what makes sense to YOU ?

What we need is discussion, of ideas, not this silly quoting of some assumed 'authority'. And from hundreds of years ago, into the bargain: what on earth would her know about the modern world ? A bit like Nostradamus that some simple-minded Christians still believe in.

The logic of a supernatural being, with all sorts of powers, is that hypothetically effort must mean nothing to him or her. Snap the fingers and - hey presto ! the universe is created. So why should anybody think that the finger-snapper is entitled to any sort of praise for what comes so easily ? A believer needs only to accept and move on, no praising, praying, falling on one's knees, etc. If it came so easy, then thanks, mate, but so what ?

And another problem with the notion of a god or goddess having been around forever, a problem that believers throw at evolutionists and Big Bang theorists all the time, but which can be equally applied to their assumptions too - if everything needs a creator, who created her ? And in turn, who created HER ? And so on, gods and goddesses, all the way back for infinity. An infinite number of gods and goddesses, in fact. Does that mean that all those eternal beings, all the way back to infinity, are still there ? Is there a hierarchy of gods and goddesses, ranked by seniority ?

[TBC]

[continued]

Here's a simple question: would you believe in a god (or goddess) if there was no Paradise ? Nothing after a fair stretch of life on earth ? We live our lives, contribute as best we can, then that's it. No, I don't like the idea of dying, and forever, but that's how, in my view, it is. For all of us. The world doesn't dance to our wishes.

Would you be all that prayful if there was no paradise ? Wouldn't you still thank your god or goddess every single day, just for the chance to be alive on this beautiful earth ? I would, if I was a believer, but since I'm not, and never will be - instead I thank the people around me and the 'magic' of the earth itself, Mother Nature if you like, for beautiful days, like today, for wonderful friends, for decent health, for the abilities to read and think for myself. You should try it, Grateful, it can be amazing :)

No, my friend, there is no Heaven and there is no Hell. What you see around you is all there is, and what we make of it. Like me, you will live a certain number of years and then - pfft ! I've got twenty years if I'm very lucky. I want to do what I can in that time to make the world a better place. Then the worms can get me.

Does it take courage to face up to the fact that life is finite ? I don't know, that's how it is. When my darling wife was dying, she showed absolutely no fear. A Christian friend asked if he could say a prayer for her, and she just shrugged and said 'If you want to', so she humoured him and let him do it, because it meant so much to him. But then, without fear, she faded away, knowing that in a few hours there would be nothing, forever. I hope that I have as much real courage when I go, because I know it's forever.

[TBC]

Here is a simple question;
When Mohammad was asked if cousins could marry, the question was
referred back to Allah via Gabriel, and the answer came back, yes they can marry.

If Allah is so all knowing why did he burden millions of moslems over
the last 1400 years with millions of mentally & physically handicapped children ?

The real mystery is why did tribes of camel & horse breeders go along
with this nonsense ?
They must have surely known it was stupid and nonsense.

[continued]

I think that is courage. Not some scumbags machine-gunning a theatre crowd or students in classrooms, or blowing up a market-place. Frankly, I don't think that anyone like those dog-turds who believes in some afterlife – what ? as a 'reward' for murdering innocent people ? - has any courage.

So what do YOU think, Grateful ? YOU are important, your views matter, at least they should matter to YOU, and if they are solid, they will stand up to scrutiny in discussion with others. Your quoting of some other 'authority' counts for nothing. Sorry :)

Random verses for today, from 'The Cattle':

[6.100] And they make the jinn associates with Allah, while He created them, and they falsely attribute to Him sons and daughters without knowledge; glory be to Him, and highly exalted is He above what they ascribe (to Him).

[6.101] Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.

[6.102] That is Allah, your Lord, there is no god but He; the Creator of all things, therefore serve Him, and He has charge of all things.

[6.103] Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware.

Etc. Strange: if the Koran was the unchangeable word of Allah passed down to the illiterate trader Muhammad, why is so much of it endless praise for Allah ? i.e. so in his own words, he praises himself ?

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Bazz,

In many early pastoral and agricultural societies, land was held by the entire clan, differentiated into parts that were held by the extended family, and then parcelled out again - never to be sold, by the way (well, who to? since everybody held their land in this way) - amongst nuclear families within the extended family, THEN to male individuals within the family. So intermarriage between clan members, i.e. cousins, was a way of keeping the land within the group.

[There is some fascinating detail about this sort of land tenure in a work by C. K. Meek (1948) on 'Land Law and Custom in the Colonies', bits of which are on my web-site: www.firstsources.info on the last 'Page'.]

It would have meant that the clan was very much intra-married, closed, tight, a little world unto itself, utterly at war with every other clan. Oh well, that was us thousands of years ago too.

Of course, they knew nothing of genetics and the dangers of such marriage practices. Any poor half-wits or deformed kids would have been blamed on bad luck or the commission of some offence (probably by a woman) against some god or other. Most would have been left on the side of a hill for the jackals.

If there WAS a god, I'd thank her every day for being alive AFTER the Enlightenment got going. In comparison, what ghastly times before that, really.

Cheers,

Joe

Joe, did you see SBS tonight ? It was about cousin marriages !
They had a number of cousin maried there. One couple were doctors
and he wanted his son to marry his cousin.
A genetist pointed out the increased danger when the practise is wide
spread in a population as the incidents increase significantly.

It is no wonder that Arabs have won so few Nobel prizes.
I knew why they did it, ie to keep the land in the family/tribe but
what a burden to put on the children and the mothers that have to look
after the handicapped children.

Something no one brought up was who pays for the increased social
and medical services that the extra handicapped children need ?