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The Forum > Article Comments > Christianity as mother of western liberalism > Comments

Christianity as mother of western liberalism : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 6/10/2015

Siedentop gives us an accessible journey through the transformations of the self from the preclassical Western family, through ancient Greece and Rome and the rise of the church in Europe to the sixteenth century.

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As always Runner you never let reality get in the why of your world view. Just a quick check of immigration figures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

That people do move to Muslim countries in large numbers.

They only thin you are correct on is my knowledge of Christianity it is indeed superficial just as my knowledge of Islam is. However that is because both all equally silly. I can't help noticing though you didn't actual take up the challenged and name something, because even with my basic understanding of the two religions I know they are pretty much alike.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 8:37:18 AM
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Whatever positive contributions Christian-ISM as an ideology may or may not have had to the development of the modern world it is now irreducibly trapped in its own mind-forged-manacles (as William Blake described and prophesised).
These two references describe the situation:
http://www.dabase.org/up-1-2.htm
http://www.dabase.org/up-1-6.htm
These two references describe in very sobering stark terms what the much-vaunted death-haunted Western mind and culture is really all about:
the universal scape goat "game" now being dramatized all over the planet
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/Aletheon/ontranscendingtheinsubordinatemind.html
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/Aletheon/there_is_a_way_EDIT.html
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 11:58:46 AM
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Cobber
You changed your q :
", can you name a Christian value detailed in the bible that doesn't have a parallel in the Koran?" to "Christianity and Islam".
There are 2 Bible /Koran parallels : 1. Non-idolatry .2. swords.
You say you don't know but you do know these faiths. Hope you're not a bus or truck mechanic or electrician.
It's your theory , go ahead. Tell us your explanation to your question, please.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 1:25:36 PM
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My reading of history leads me to the conclusion that Christianity was a roadblock to the progress of western civilisation. The classical world had accomplished much in mathematics, engineering, philosophy and natural science.

The Greeks had developed axiomatic mathematical systems as in Euclid’s geometry. The Egyptians had developed trigonometry. Eratosthenes about 2,300 years ago measured the circumference of the earth to better than 99% accuracy. Plato and other philosophers provided the foundations of philosophy. We are still living on the intellectual capital provided by Greek drama, philosophy and legend. The Romans were great engineers and administrators. Some of their aqueducts and buildings still stand.

What went wrong?

In the fourth century Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, and the Dark Ages descended on Europe. IMHO one was the cause of the other.

There were many pagan sects, and as Gibbon wrote “...the religious harmony of the ancient world, and the facility with which the most different and even hostile nations embraced, or at least respected, each other’s superstitions. The Christian superstition did not exhibit the tolerance that the different pagan religions had. In my post of Tuesday, 6 October 2015 3:49:46 PM on this thread I mentioned how the Theodosian degrees discriminated against the pagan religions. The atmosphere was not conducive to a reasonable exchange of ideas. One is constrained by the possibility of being accused of heresy. Christianity incorporated many of the ideas of the pagan religions such as virgin birth, resurrection and afterlife. E. C. Carpenter in “Pagan & Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning” describes the process. People could accept Christianity since it incorporated many familiar superstitions. The rulers welcomed its support for their rule.

The intolerance of Christianity towards different ideas has been exemplified by the murder by a Christian mob of the pagan Hypatia (mathematician, teacher, philosopher) in 415 CE, the burnings at the stake of Servetus in Protestant Geneva in 1553 CE and of Bruno in Catholic Rome in 1600 CE.

continued
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 3:45:26 PM
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continued

The Renaissance from the 14th to the 17th century started as a cultural movement in Italy in the Late Medieval period and later spread to the rest of Europe. Its intellectual basis was humanism, derived from the rediscovery of classical Greek philosophy, such as that of Protagoras, who said, that "Man is the measure of all things." This partially freed Europe from the rigid grip of Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

“The Enlightenment, known in French as the ‘’Siècle des Lumières’’ (Century of Enlightenment), and in German as the ‘’Aufklärung’’, was a philosophical movement which dominated the world of ideas in Europe in the 18th century. The central doctrines of the Lumieres were individual liberty and religious tolerance, in opposition to the principle of absolute monarchy in France and the fixed dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

“Deism gained prominence among intellectuals during the Age of Enlightenment—especially in Britain, France, Germany and the United States—who, raised as Christians, believed in one god but became disenchanted with organized religion and notions such as the Trinity, Biblical inerrancy and the supernatural interpretation of events such as miracles. Included in those influenced by its ideas were leaders of the American and French Revolutions.”

The American Declaration of Independence and the French Rights of Man were documents embodying the ideals in this period. Rights were for all regardless of their ethnicity and religious beliefs.

The United States was the first nation founded incorporating separation of religion and state.

Unfortunately there was a step backward in the nineteenth century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

“It was embodied most strongly in the visual arts, music, and literature, but had a major impact on historiography, education, and the natural sciences. It had a significant and complex effect on politics, and while for much of the Romantic period it was associated with liberalism and radicalism, its long-term effect on the growth of nationalism was perhaps more significant.”

Nations formed during this period were generally on the basis of ethnic nationalism, the union of a people based on a shared ethnicity and religion.

Continued
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 3:49:47 PM
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Continued

The twentieth century saw a further regression. The two prominent western nations formed by ethnic nationalism, Germany and Italy, proceeded into fascism, an intensely tribal nationalism, which regarded those outside the tribe as subhuman.

The nineteenth century philosophy, Marxism, saw its realisation in the Leninist takeover in Russia. Marxism was a quasi-religion employing Christian ideas. The Joachite view of history – Eden – the father’s period of peace - the son’s battle of God against Satan – the millennium a thousand years of peace before or after the Second Coming depending on which brand of Christianity was transformed into primitive communism in an economy of scarcity followed by the class struggle between the evil capitalist and the noble workers ending up in the classless society – advanced communism in an economy of plenty.

We are in the twenty first century. Fascism and Communism have both been defeated. Chinese communism is being transformed into a form of capitalism. The ideas of the Enlightenment are realised in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ contains the UDHR.

Rampant Islam is where Christianity was several centuries ago before its intolerance was tamed by the secular state.

It is my hope that the mass of humanity will be educated in science and critical thinking and will abandon belief in Christianity, Islam and other religions based on belief in a supernatural. I would not want any government to force people to abandon religion. That would be just as tyrannical as to force religion on people. If religion will not be abandoned voluntarily it should not be abandoned.

I can only hope the ideals of the Enlightenment will be realised.
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 7 October 2015 3:56:07 PM
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