All religion is foolish...

The problem you have is you want to attach anything bad these nuts do to their religion, but if a Christian group does some thing bad then it's got nothing to do with their Christian beliefs. Its a double standard tat everyone except the religious sees.

Anything and everything is permissible under most religions, it's all in the interpreting of the text.

there was a time that most if not all Christians thought working on Sundays was a mortal sin punishable by death.

No IS has got nothing and everything to do with Islam, it's their Islam but it isn't the Islam of the chap that lives down the road from me

What absolute crap Cobber.

If a army of thugs waving Christian banners and spouting slogans from the Bible, threatened to kill all non-Christians, took over half a country, I'm sure they would be called extremist Christian terrorists.

The only group threatening world peace happens to be adherents of the Islamic faith. Islam is not the religion of peace politicians are pretending it is, in order to not incite other Muslims.

ISIS has everything to do with Islam! But not all Muslims follow the extreme beliefs practiced by ISIS.

Accept it mate, there is a serious worldwide problem being caused by Islamic extremists and its going to get a whole lot worse, before it gets better (if it ever gets better). It may take 100 years but Islam will be the dominate world religion and population - then see what happens.

Doesn't affect the advancement of Western middle/upper class women's quotas so rates very low among feminist.

"arguing that the practice conforms to the teaching and example of Muhammad and his companions."

Good ole Muhammad. He's such an example to us all, isn't he?

'for Muslims to enslave their captives was "a more humane and proper way of disposing of them"' ... " their descendants produced great scholars, imams, jurists, commentators, statesmen and generals of the army."

Slavery is more humane and proper because you can breed good citizens out of them. Good one.

No wonder the leftists can't bring themselves to criticise it.

"this verse of the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad at a time when Muslims had been 'refraining' from having sex with their married female captives."

Very continent chap.

"Verse 4:24 relieved them of this restraint by giving them permission to have sex with captive women even if the women were already married."

Aaah. Good ole God. He always comes through in the end, doesn't he?

"During the course of the interview Senator Bernardi linked the Islamic State with Muhammad's example, to which the interviewer wrote "Kaboom!", and called the comment a 'hand grenade', 'inflamatory' and 'divisive'."

Good luck with encouraging critical thinking or intellectual honesty from the left wing. It's not exactly their strong point.

"comparative theology"

LOL

Cobber,

"there was a time that most if not all Christians thought working on Sundays was a mortal sin punishable by death."

I'd love to see a reference to that!!

That is actually quite surprising.

>>No wonder the leftists can't bring themselves to criticise it.<<

Given that Daesh/IS/whaddyecallit is the closest the world presently has by way of an exemplar of right-wing thinking, it should be the easiest possible target for proponents of an inclusive democracy.

Total control over a populace through the medium of religion was the operating system of Christianity for over sixteen hundred years, and is still today the favoured mechanism of so many of the conservatively-inclined.

The similarities between Christianity and Daesh/IS/whaddyecallit are too obvious to be a coincidence.

The desire of an elite male cabal to control relationships between people, to control female reproduction, to excoriate homosexuality, to subjugate women to second-class status etc. etc. - are all highly familiar. On display in fact, every day, in our present government.

And all in the name of a non-existent being.

Sad.

The naive author believes the Muslim terrorists as if the Koran and Hadith have anything to do with the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Those books were all faked about 150 years after Muhammad's death, some even later, and have nothing to do with religion or with the real historical person of Muhammad, who neither did nor advocated any of those atrocities.

Sad to see people who out of their unrelated hate of what they perceive as "religion" (usually due to their resentment of discipline) jump onto this Islamic bandwagon. Just because someone boasts of being religious doesn't imply that their teachings and behaviours truly have anything to do with religion.

Yuyutsu - "Those books were all faked about 150 years after Muhammad's death, some even later, and have nothing to do with religion or with the real historical person of Muhammad, who neither did nor advocated any of those atrocities."

Could you please provide a link to the source of your information?

Not even most Muslims believe Muhammad wasn't a warrior.

Dear Hippie,

I base my view on the vast research of Robert Spencer. He has written several books on Islam and you can watch many of his talks on Islam in youtube, perhaps starting here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ0uV1GjyXI

Spencer himself believes that Muhammad never existed.
My modified belief, based on spiritual sources, is that indeed "such a Muhammad" as falsely described by the Hadith never existed, yet an actual saint by the name of 'Muhammad' in fact lived around that time (6th-7th century), who was the seed of rumours and came to symbolise the "ideal person".

Following, thousands of legends were invented around camp-fires to describe how the "ideal person, Muhammad" should have been, of which an evil militant cult later selected what suited its purposes (3% of the tales according to Spencer) to create what is today known as "Islam". Spencer notes how some of their selected materials were inconsistent and follows the forensic trail on how later generations attempted to cover up those inconsistencies.

Exodus 31:14: Then go read some history books.

You should use read a few news papers about christian groups operate in Africa.

You also might just caste your mind back to a little issue in Ireland...queue...it wasn't between Catholics and Protestants (which it my point.)

Some of the posters have to stop blaming the left for everything and have a look at the right. Religious fundamentalist are right wing.

Cobber the hound, "Religious fundamentalist are right wing"

Do you honestly believe that?

While all religions have had their times of shameful edicts and actions, Islam is presently the most deserving of criticism and for very obvious reasons.

How anyone can be an apologist for, to support and defend a religion that has an overriding goal of introducing Sharia, religious law, is completely beyond me.

Islam is medieval and absurd, stupidly comical if it wasn't so threatening, limiting, cruel and dangerous. Obviously dangerous because people are scared of criticising Islam, whereas other religions are fair game and rightly so.

'The similarities between Christianity and Daesh/IS/whaddyecallit are too obvious

Good try Pericles. It is secularist who insist on promoting girls as sex objects and then murder the babies when they fall pregnant. You are a little confused as usual. Then again with no moral base to draw upon its no surprise.

I watched enough of the video to glean the message/proposition Spencer is selling. Essentially the Quran is supposedly the direct word of God/Allah as received by the prophet Mohammed. But given the inconsistencies in the Quran as they were revealed by Mohammed it stands to reason Mohammed was making it up as he went along, so to speak, and therefore the Quran cannot be the actual words of Allah.

You say - "My modified belief, based on spiritual sources, is that indeed "such a Muhammad" as falsely described by the Hadith never existed, yet an actual saint by the name of 'Muhammad' in fact lived around that time (6th-7th century), who was the seed of rumours and came to symbolise the "ideal person".

So in other words, you have invented your own Muhammad, based on the work of someone who denies Muhammad ever existed and your spiritual sources, whatever those might be. You want it both ways, the not so perfect Muhammad that is credited with the Quran and who's life is told in the Hajith didn't really exist and therefore Islam is a sham; but you still believe a Great Prophet Muhammad existed, who only espoused the good verses you use to claim Islam is religion of peace.

Sorry Yuyutsu, that doesn't stack up.

This quote actually draws attention to a fundamental problem;

"for Muslims to enslave their captives was "a more humane and proper
way of disposing of them"' ... " their descendants produced great
scholars, imams, jurists, commentators, statesmen and generals of the
army.""

The main reason that Islamic armies kept captives is probably because
their genome is badly damaged and they knew that the captives were
cleverer than themselves and could do advanced studies and work that
they themselves with their lower IQ are unable to develop.

This is the result of their inbreeding custom of marrying cousins.
See NSW Government Hansard and Parliamentary report to House of
Commons by the UK Midlands National Heath Service.
It also might explains why there was a surge in science in Spain
during the occupation by the Moors.

The Australian taxpayer is now carrying the extra burden of dealing
with their children. The birth genetic defect rate is between 13%
and 18% greater than the host population.

It is this genetic problem which I believe is the cause of Islamists
to be unable to compromise in negotiations or have rigid beliefs.
A Danish doctor who has studied the problem believes their average
IQ is somewhere between 80 and 95.

If you have any doubt of this look up the number of Nobel Prize
winners of Arab or other Moslem nations. Compare to any European country.

Dear Hippie,

What Spencer claims is not only that the Koran is not the words of Allah - but not even the words of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

I am not claiming that even the good words in the Koran are Muhammad's. All that was left from Muhammad was probably just vague rumours, then these rumours developed and became a popular theme to tell stories about, all kinds of stories - good and bad. At some stage, an evil militant gang collected those of the stories (a subset of about 3%) that it believed should serve their purposes - and that became what we now know as "Islam".

Yuyutsu, are there any references in Jewish histories to the attacks
on Jewish towns/villages near to Medina or other Islamic cities ?

"If a army of thugs waving Christian banners and spouting slogans from the Bible, threatened to kill all non-Christians, took over half a country, I'm sure they would be called extremist Christian terrorists."

No, they are called the US Army, Australian Army and UK Armies etc

What planet are you from Valley Guy?

Since when do the US, Australian and UK armies wave Christian flags and chant from the Bible. Fine if you want to be anti-West and/or anti-democracy, but at least get your facts half right.

I'm sure you love bending over to serve your ISIS brothers; perhaps they will teach you how to be a real man instead of a brainwashed paranoid stooge. Or are you planning to martyr yourself for ISIS in the near future.

//Not even most Muslims believe Muhammad wasn't a warrior.//

And? Not even most Christians believe Jesus wasn't a god who got up and walked around for a while after having being executed.

It doesn't make them correct. Facts are not the same as beliefs.

//Its a double standard tat everyone except the religious sees.//

In the wake of the Black Saturday bushfires, in which 173 people died, a devout and faithful Christian religious leader known as Pastor Nalliah claimed he had received "prophetic dreams" on 21 October 2008 that these bushfires were a "consequence" of Victoria's decriminalisation of abortion in 2008, prompting criticism from a former Australian Treasurer, Peter Costello, that Nalliah's assertion was "beyond the bounds of decency".

Everybody agreed with Costello, and Nalliah's lunacy is not considered representative of Christian belief.

But if he had been Imam Nalliah instead of Pastor Nalliah, we'd have a whole Greek chorus to tell us that Nalliah's views are in full accordance with Islam, without even having taken a quick straw poll of Muslims to see whether or not they support his opinions. This is akin to having atheists interpreting Christian doctrine without consulting with Christians to get their side of the story: the Christians are going to come off looking bad.

Pastor Nalliah doesn't speak for all Christians, and wacky Imams don't speak for all Muslims. Maybe we should all pay a little more attention to what the believers believe, and not what their teachers teach.

"wacky Imams don't speak for all Muslims"... correct, Tony.

This thread is specifically about the attitudes and actions of the Islamic State. This thread does not point the finger at all Muslims. This thread is about the actions of 'the wacky' Imams/ISIS.

All the wacky violent ISIS fighters are Muslims! Its wacky Muslims who are an ongoing serious threat to many non-Muslim innocent people going about their daily lives. If a suicide bomber detonates him/herself in Paris, London, New York, Sydney etc, you can bet your last dollar it will be preceded by the shout of Allah Akbar, by a wacky member of the Islamic faith.

Tony, don't try to excuse ISIS under the misguided argument, ISIS members are not a reflection of real Muslims. There are real Muslims who are very good, kind loving people and there are real Muslims who will chop off your head and rape your wife. (Yes, there are insane people from all other religious groups but that's not what we are discussing)

"Maybe we should all pay a little more attention to what the believers believe, and not what their teachers teach." (which believers Tony, the ones in this discussion e.g. ISIS believers; or the ones you are trying to use to deflect this discussion away from its core?)

No, we should hold account what the radical believers are doing and trying to teach young Muslims in western countries around the world to do.

Your Christophobic rants Toni shows how ignorant you are. The earth worshippers blamed gw for the bushfires. More than likely they contributed greatly to the deaths by failing to allow adequate clearing of bush. Maybe you could use your brain a little and look at the life of Christ and the life of Mohammed and then make an informed statement. Then again for a secularist you might not of evolved enough to think that clearly.

Glass houses, runner. Glass houses.

People in them should refrain from casting stones, remember?

>>It is secularist who insist on promoting girls as sex objects and then murder the babies when they fall pregnant. You are a little confused as usual. Then again with no moral base to draw upon its no surprise<<

That is no doubt why there has been a long-running, in-depth and still-going investigation into the life-changing, disgusting sexual maltreatment of small children by men of the (Christian) cloth.

Which "moral base" were they drawing upon, do you think?

A question, onthebeach.

>>Cobber the hound, "Religious fundamentalist are right wing" Do you honestly believe that?<<

Where else on the political spectrum could you possibly place them?

'; Which "moral base" were they drawing upon, do you think?'

obviously the one you share Pericles where right and wrong are made up by humans as it suits them.

Runner "'; Which "moral base" were they drawing upon, do you think?'
obviously the one you share Pericles where right and wrong are made up by humans as it suits them."

Would that be humans similar to those who wrote the Bible and the Koran Runner?
No god wrote either of those books....humans did, moral or not.

Certainly ISIS holds the current nasty religion based group of the year award, but other religious groups of all denominations have all had their go in the past.
This mad crowd aren't the first, and sadly won't be the last.

'Certainly ISIS holds the current nasty religion based group of the year award but other religious groups of all denominations have all had their go in the past. '

probably compatible Susie with the feminist doctrines of killing babies or Marxism. Yeah at least we agree that human nature is very corrupt. Usually those in denial are the worse culprits.

Dear Bazz,

<<Yuyutsu, are there any references in Jewish histories to the attacks
on Jewish towns/villages near to Medina or other Islamic cities ?>>

According to Spencer there are many such records of Jewish and other tribes from that period, describing how they were conquered by Arabs - however none of these mention "Muhammad", "Islam" or "Koran" even in a word.

I would describe myself as being of the left and I fully support stopping ISIS and every other organisation involved in human trafficking.

It isn't only ISIS that has been involved in human trafficking, private military contractors like DynCorp have also been involved in questionable activities over many years, and yet still receive multi-billion dollar Pentagon contracts without ever being put in the "penalty box".

Congresswoman McKinney questioned Donald Rumsfeld about this in 2006
"I watched President Bush deliver a moving speech ... in which he mentioned the crisis of the sex trade. The President called for the punishment of those involved in this horrible business. But at the very moment of that speech, DynCorp was exposed for having been involved in the buying and selling of young women and children. While all of this was going on, DynCorp kept the Pentagon contract to administer the smallpox and anthrax vaccines, ... Mr. Secretary, is it [the] policy of the U.S. Government to reward companies that traffic in women and little girls?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px1t1-a9uxk

In 2010 there was another Dyncorp scandal - for which no employee was ever charged.
"Two Afghan policemen and nine other Afghans were arrested as part of investigations into a crime described by Atmar as "purchasing a service from a child", which the cable said was against both sharia law and the civil code. ...an incident of "questionable management oversight" in which foreign DynCorp workers "hired a teenage boy to perform a tribal dance at a company farewell party"."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/02/foreign-contractors-hired-dancing-boys

One easy way we could stop ISIS would be to encourage our closest Islamic allies, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to stop supporting the spread of Wahhabism (fundamentalist Islam) and terrorist organisations.

"There is evidence that... “Qatar’s military and economic largesse has made its way to Jabhat al-Nusra”, an al-Qaida group operating in Syria. ... Germany’s development minister, Gerd Mueller, was slapped down after pointing the finger at Qatar for funding Islamic State (Isis). ... According to a secret memo signed by Hillary Clinton, released by Wikileaks, Qatar has the worst record of counter-terrorism cooperation with the US."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/31/combat-terror-end-support-saudi-arabia-dictatorships-fundamentalism