Is Mise, for me, being locked up in a high security prison with nothing to do and nothing to look forward to for the rest of my life would be much worse than a quick death.

However, if I was wrongly convicted, I'd fight to the death to stay alive, because where there's life there's hope of the conviction being overturned. It wouldn't be much consolation to me if that happened posthumously, after all.

Dear Is Mise,

<<Then what is the ultimate penalty?>>

It differs from one person to another.

Consider what you personally dread the most being inflicted on you - for a few it would be death, but most of us envision one or more inflicted scenarios that would be much worse (obviously I won't openly describe mine, in case it's used against me).

Rhian

You ask if the prospect of life in prison is more of a deterrent than the prospect of execution? Answer. No. In the USA, it is common for prosecutors in capitol cases, where the prosecutor is worried that the offender may get off, to offer life in prison in exchange for a guilty plea. This offer is almost always taken up by the suspect in cases where the offender knows that he may get off, but the weight of evidence is still against him. In capitol cases involving two offenders, it is common to offer life in prison to one offender, in exchange for him being a witness against the dominant offender. This saves much court time and taxpayer money.

Your second question, involves the concept of the innocent being found guilty of a capitol crime. It is true that innocent people have been executed for crimes that they did not commit. This was because execution was the usual punishment for the crime of murder, a hundred years ago. We are a much more humane society now, and those advanced societies with capitol punishment typically impose the death penalty in cases where the sadistic nature and cruelty of the offender is almost beyond belief. In addition, investigative procedures have improved immeasurably in the last one hundred years. The same technology which has found people innocent of crimes is more usually used today to prove offenders guilty. In any case, I suspect you oppose capitol punishment even when the offender is a serial murdering monster and it is beyond any reasonable doubt that he is guilty.

Now I have answered two of your questions, I expect you to answer mine.

If you have no problem with the Australian government using the Australian Armed Forces to bestow the death penalty on our external enemies, why do you oppose the government doing the same selectively with our internal enemies?

Military operations routinely involve killing innocents, regardless of how much care we take not to do so. Do you oppose all military operations in defence of the realm, because we may kill innocents?

LEGO,

Your "proof" that capital punishment serves as more of a deterrent than LWOP is proof of nothing other than the fact that people who have been sprung are willing to bargain and generally see death has the more severe punishment. Deterrence, on the other hand, cannot, by definition, be measured when someone has already been caught because you’re not trying to deter them from anything.

The question is whether a potential offender is more deterred by the prospect of death than they are by the prospect of LWOP. Most of the evidence suggests they're not, and for the reasons I mentioned in the other thread that somehow no longer count because this is a new thread. Whether or not one fears death more than LWOP has little to no influence on the decision to carry out an offence.

Capital punishment supposedly being the usual punishment for murder a hundred years ago is not the reason innocent people have been executed. You're just making this up as you go now. What about the innocents executed over the last 50 years or so?

<<We are a much more humane society now, and those advanced societies with capitol punishment typically impose the death penalty in cases where the sadistic nature and cruelty of the offender is almost beyond belief.>>

Or when a murder was premeditated. Either one.

But this is disingenuous coming from someone who thinks that even drug dealers or traffickers should be executed. Apparently you consider yourself to be less humane than others.There will always be creep. Texas is now executing mentally retarded people.

Improved investigative procedures are still flawed too, and always will be. This is not an argument unless you consider there to be a number of innocents executed that is small enough to actually be acceptable.

As for your inability to distinguish between capital punishment and military combat, killing enemy soldiers is not a "punishment", it's a means of defence. I'm sure if it was safe and we had the resources, then we'd capture and imprison every enemy combatant for life.

Continued…

...Continued

Killing them would probably then horrify the more enlightened and civilised in our societies and only appeal to the more angry and ignorant conservative types. Similarly, people in tribal times would have thought we were mad if we suggested to them that they build a cage for those who deviated from what was considered acceptable behaviour to the tribe and then bring their food to them, because they simply didn't have the resources to do that.

All that being said, it would be more accurate to compare military combat with a police shootout. With capital punishment, the state is killing someone who has already been incapacitated and is no longer a threat. I think anyone who is fine with that has a few screws loose. The fact that you cannot distinguish between enemy combatants and criminals suggests a concerning level of paranoia on your behalf.

By the way, it's 'capital' punishment, not 'capitol'.

Rhian, sorry, mental ilness doesn't wash with me as one of the most over used 'get out of jail free cards' around. If someone is that mentally il, why are they on the streets.

As far as provoked goes, that comes under aggravated asult, different again.

As for compassion, I'll bet Mr Big couldn't give two hoots about the lives he destroys, nor would his fall guys.

I will say though that the Indonesian police have now tarnished this case and it would not surprise me if these two now get off.