What a storm in a teacup:

Men like to see women's breasts because as boys they were not allowed.
Besides being the "forbidden fruit", boys got to compete among themselves over who manages to see that which is forbidden, so it became a matter of prestige/self-esteem and early impressions made it seem as the ultimate achievement.

In societies where the women's feet must not be seen, a similar obsession occurs about their feet and where the whole female body is invisible, seeing any part of it becomes an almost uncontrollable obsession.

As the taboo on nudity lessened in the last generations, so was men's interest and this is the simple reason why "The naked breast is now in retreat". Too late for the baby-boomers though because childhood impressions are difficult to erase.

Yes, women have ongoing and legitimate socio-economic grievances against men, but the two issues are not related.

Craig

If you want to condemn tribalism in forum discussions, then practise what you preach.

So far, I've never seen you refute the tedious smear trope that feminists are absolutists, extremists and troublemakers - indeed, you endorse it. I've never seen you condemn the constant harping on feminists' supposed lack of attractiveness or f*kability. Neither have I ever seen you deflect the relentless derailing tactic of reducing any feminist argument, no matter how reasonably argued, to a personal attack on all men everywhere.

These are all well-worn tribalist tactics to isolate, discredit and silence feminists. But you appear quite happy to engage in some or all of these tactics yourself.

That's your prerogative, but don't reserve the right to pontificate about 'tribal approaches' on gender threads. That's being a tad hypocritical - don't you think?

JKJ

'All you're doing is re-assuming your premise - that there's something bad about ordinary heterosexual behaviour.'

No, that was not my premise at all, so I can't re-assume a premise I never had. In fact, you haven't a clue what my premise was. All you did was rant and rave and bluster and fume about what you DECIDED for yourself that my premise was.

Suse

I'm with you. I'm outta here too.

Just one more comment before leaving the thread ...

Yuyutsu

'Yes, women have ongoing and legitimate socio-economic grievances against men, but the two issues are not related.'

No, women's 'ongoing and legitimate socio-economic grievances' are not, and never have been, against men. Those grievances are against THE PATRIARCHY - which is a socio-political SYSTEM.

But a lot of PEOPLE of both genders insist on ignoring that all-important difference.

Killarney, a little reminder

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16867#296820

I don't have to endorse all the details of the particular dogma that you support for us to find common ground, surely?

Dear Killarney,

<<No, women's 'ongoing and legitimate socio-economic grievances' are not, and never have been, against men. Those grievances are against THE PATRIARCHY - which is a socio-political SYSTEM.>>

Indeed, I am ignorant in these matters, such as the differences between socio-economic and socio-political, so if you care to explain to me what you mean by 'patriarchy'?

Anyway, I am glad that you agree with me that men's psychological woes regarding women's bodies and women's socio-economic-political grievances are two separate issues, so you do not blame the poor men who are so conditioned from boyhood to desire seeing women's breasts that they are willing to pay for it, or those who make business out of it, as the culprits, but rather that "patriarchy", whatever that is (could it include women?).

Killarney
"In fact, you haven't a clue what my premise was."

Well why don't you explain what it is?

I thought your premise is that "we girls still live in a man's world, according to men's rules and men's decisions, must still view the world through the male gaze and spend our lives desperately living up to men's fantasies.

Isn't it?

And that there's something wrong with men looking at women's breasts. Isn't it? Otherwise there'd be no issue, would there?

Would there?

Susie, it's not abuse to point out that your idea that women should be equally attracted to looking at men's breasts is one of the stupidest things that anyone ever uttered. That's not abuse; it's mere description.