Islam started about 600AD or thereabouts, Modern Christianity, in so much as that taught by Jesus Christ & the new testatment started when he came of age roughly around 30-20BC.
What Christianity sorted out about 500 yrs ago in Europe is what Islam is sorting out now, its just that with modern electronic media such as the internet, everyone gets to see it's ugly turmoil today.
That is how I broadly see this fiasco that we see today..

How is Islam to be reconciled with the modern world?

It can't be whilst it keeps Muhammad and without Muhammad it isn't Islam.

Therefore....

Quote: Most Muslims have managed to reconcile their faith with the modern world.

No they haven’t! Most muslims think it is right to kill those who criticize Islam and Mohammed.

Quote: Hopefully the religious extremists will eventually be defeated by the more moderate Moslems .

Not going to happen -- the so-called religious extremists have the Quran and hadith on their side. They always win an argument with the so-called moderates.

Quote: the west needs to be more careful how it gets involved in the affairs of the Islamic world.

The West should not ever get involved in the Islamic world, even for the best of intentions, especially for the worst reasons. Western involvement will not change anything, and it only gives Muslims another excuse to hate us.

Quote: This is going to be a long war.

It is going to be an unending evermore war, and the results are in doubt giving the stupidity of our leaders, who certainly will continue to bring more Muslims to add to our misery.

It beats me how everyone seems to know what most Muslims think.
That's a lot of people!
No one can know what they all think.

Violent people are going to be violent, whatever God they follow.

Susie says it all for me!
Rhrosty.

Isnt it about time that people who presume to make comments on this perplexing unsolvable issue stop promoting the furphy that the Sept 11 attack on the twin towers in New York was an act of islamic terrorism. There is ample evidence that proves that it was an inside false flag operation.
Meanwhile all of what is now promoted as religion all over the world is essentially pop (comic book) religion. Such religion is mis-informed by the conventions of street "wisdom" combined with bits and pieces of inherited tribalistic cultism and/or the allowable entirely exoteric ideas of all the righteous State religions and their cultic idols.

All these street wars of religion against religion, dull idea against dull idea, are nothing but the muscle of individual and collective stupidity, sheeplike ego clashes socking macho horn-heads as if competing for a rut, the separate junk piles of the past all hurled at one another for the sake of angry power and frustration, whizzing between minds that are mucked in self, hardened by fear, defined by the inherited provincial passions of birth, and utterly oblivious to the Truth and the Wide Wise significance of our bleeding worried lives.

The primary purpose of such pop religion is to ensure that each generation is mechanically reproduced in the form of millions of people in each generation, much in the same manner, and for the same basic purpose, as worker bees in a hive.

Afterthought:
As a substitute for actual evidence, fanatical zealotary has very little going for it; except in the minds of absolute morons, or the barking dog mad!
Rhrosty.

‘morning Keith,

The debate we have to have about Islam has not yet reached a meaningful stage. As the public becomes more aware and more fearful through the increased profile of Islam, the debate has taken on a new intensity but it is only driving the quest for even more public knowledge.

As the public makes enquiries outside the MSM, many are beginning to wonder just how things have become so alarming when they did not know how serious a problem this was in the first place?

Most are now realizing that a great deal of information is out there but has not been made public, thus they have been unable to make informed decisions and have not been alarmed however, it now seems to be a much bigger issue than has been presented and more importantly, possibly now too late to respond politically.

There would appear to be three groups in the international community, each has differing perspectives and motivations. The three groups can be identified as Islam, in all its manifestations, the general public who are expressing alarm at the lack of background information and the apparent lack of action to protect citizens. Lastly the Political and Media group that insists that Islam is not a problem.

So when I suggest that the debate so far is not meaningful, what I mean is that all the “old” arguments are still flooding the arena because two of the groups, Islam and the Political/Media groups, are still rhetorically where they have always been and refuse to acknowledge any basis for public concern. Meantime the now better informed public, is increasingly anxious. Not only through increased exposure to Islamic values and motives, but also because we are told there is no need to feel negative about Islam, yet when the public does express their negativity it is the public that is labeled as Islamaphobics, bigots, racist and dangerous rednecks.

Cont’d

Cont’d

The theory seems to be that being negative about Islam might insult the sensitivities of those trying to wipe out our value system, and through the resulting Islamic “backlash”, might encourage them to do it sooner? Thus those appeasing Islam are acknowledging their culpability in enabling this divisive conflict.

The interaction between these groups is shaping up to be a source of ongoing conflict and there is little evidence that anyone is prepared or capable of breaking the nexus.

The Political/Media group continues to deconstruct Islam into component parts in order to trivialize its impact. They use relativism to compare Islam with other religions, historical despotic regimes and the good guys vs. bad guys within Islam itself. Lone wolves, terrorists, mentally ill, simple thugs, social dropkicks, disenfranchised, radicalized and High jacking Islam are very popular.

What this seeks to do is reinforce the mantra that Islam is “really” a religion of peace and most of Islam is “moderate”. The truth might be that moderate Islam comprises only those who might not follow the literal words of their religion (yet), whilst the “extremists” do?

We now have a situation where every act of violence by various Islamic manifestations, will now be worn by the Islamic community, like it or not.

The other group that will wear the consequence is the Political/Media group along with their followers, who insist on the copious application of PC to convince us that their intellectualized correctness was right all along. The tale of King Knut commanding the tide to retreat might not convince the public to retreat as commanded by the Politicians and Media.

PC has survived on “thought terminating clichés and rhetoric”, but for how much longer can PC survive the emerging Islamic reality that PC has sought distort and censor?

My guess is that the PC Group will do more of what is getting it into trouble, rhetoric. Islam will continue to develop its parasitic relationship with the Western world and the public will continue to express its concern and angst, something has to give.

Cont’d

Cont’d

The PC brigade gave us problems with immigration, human rights, gender conflicts, global warming, social engineering, multiculturism and socialized science. Each of which is sold by rhetoric not fact. PC can only offer more of the same as argument, not to make a case but to defend their own “intellectualism”.

So weak is the case made by rhetoric that punitive measures have to be taken against those who prefer critical thinking, the non-believers. Many of the PC issues are backed by the use of pejorative names and threats, all in the name of free speech of course, especially from those who have already capitulated.

“Global Warming deniers would never admit their mistake and as a result they would be executed. Perhaps that would be the only way to stop the rest of them. The death penalty would have been justified in terms of the enormous numbers of saved future lives. -- Professor Richard Parncutt, University of Graz, Austria, 25 October 2012

Really? How different is this to the threat of death in the name of Islam?

Free speech anyone?

Suse,

"It beats me how everyone seems to know what most Muslims think.
That's a lot of people!
No one can know what they all think."

Read the Koran, that'll tell you what they think.

Suseonline, could not agree more, the Muslim people have not caught up with the Western world with their belief system perhaps the Western world has not caught up that there is no such thing as Gods, let's hope sometime in a few centuries that the inhabitants then will look back and say "for goodness sake they used to believe in all sorts of Gods", which created wars, divisions between rich and poor etc, that is why now as you can see we all live in harmony and look after our fellow mankind., instead of hate back then with their Gods and religious beliefs.

I was bought up in the Catholic faith, where great emphasis was put on the fact that missionaries and many others became martyrs for their faith. Yes, died in the name of the Catholic religion. it was considered a good thing. We were taught to admire the martyrs over the centuries. Yes, and I believe martyrdom ensure one went straight to heaven. Not sure what the church means when it blesses those going off to war. There us a history, over two thousand years, of one placing one life on the line for Christ. Yes, from those who faced the lions, to those who faced primitive people during the years of colonisation, bringing the word of god to pagans.

These words by Dr Suter - a self described:

"thought leader and media personality [who describes himself as] "prolific and well-respected"

are at first glance bland, superficial and unsurprising and at mercifully final glance they are still bland, superficial and unsurprising.

Is Mise "Read the Koran, that'll tell you what they think."
Really? ALL of them?

If we thought ALL Christians followed the bible we would have people stoning adulterers left right and centre, if we followed your line of reasoning.

Ojnab, I look forward to the day you are talking about :)

S(n)useonline,

Would you contract with someone who was offering you a agreement with a whole lot of draconian clauses, if s/he assured (off the record) they would NOT enforce them all ... ala "Dont worry we reasonably ...we wont really enforce those provisions ... we are moderates"?

Just wondering?

The bigger picture is that Islamist terrorism is an insignificant issue when compared to the every day violence and criminality of "Western Oriental Gentlemen".
The people are the problem, not the religion,they are dumb, unreasonable, overly sensitive and always on a hair trigger.
Some scenarios in which I've seen them explode:
-You know how sometimes at McDonalds drive through if it's busy they'll ask you to move forward to the parking bay to wait for your order? This sent a Lebanese man over the edge, he went berserk and threatened to kill the little girl on the second window, the tirade went on for several minutes, we left just as the Police arrived.
-At the Lebanese bakery, a Somalian man went completely ballistic because he was told that "Once the pizza is in the oven you can't change your order, if you want a different topping you have to buy another one". Once again, screaming, foot stomping,death threats to the girl serving and the guys from out the back had to come and stand with her her until he left.
-Same bakery, different day, Lebanese man tries to engage one of the workers in conversation in Arabic, the girl says "He's Afghan he doesn't speak Arabic, speak English"...total, effing meltdown on the part of the customer, once again the poor girl is left shaking in fear and a terrible argument in Arabic breaks out between the bakers and the lunatic customer.

I've got tons of these stories, anyone who describes "Western Oriental Gentlemen" as a peace loving group has obviously never come into contact with them.
Forget terrorism,the fact that so many of them are mentally ill, traumatised by their life experiences or just too stupid to navigate day to day life in a first world country without exploding in frustration should be the main topic of conversation.

Is Mise is silly by his saying read Koran a big book, and a silly stupid man for saying such things like that. A lot of stuff he says make nonsence with small silly statements about things. Koran is a big book and hard to understand if you are not Muslim follower. So Is Mise say stupid to even read it, so a very foolish answer. He is not beliver of ISlam beliefs I think?

well said Suseonline...SPQR answer that yourself we have a lot of moderate Christians out there that still "follow" a rather evil book not far removed from the Koran?

The internet is a great tool do a bit of research on some of the Christian right wing groups. Their views are pretty much inline with Islamic ring wingers. The key difference is they do not have board support, in the west. They do and are starting to behave in similar ways again elsewhere often with the backing of friends in the bible belt.

Is Mise is clearly Runners new handle.

Jay Of Melbourne must be another of Runners alter-ego's.

Susie

Didn't you know that Muslims believe in Mohammed and the Koran? Derr.

What did Jesus say when they asked him whether they should stone the adulteress?

'What did Jesus say when they asked him whether they should stone the adulteress?'

yep we know what He said Jardine although I suspect a highly trained secular high priest would say go and do it again for all men are xxx anyway. It is all about me and me.

Cobber,
Even though you don't know what you're talking about you've hit on something interesting.
Yes indeed, elements the "right" are forming alliances with Muslims, though you're wrong about Christians, Christianity is irredeemably Liberal.
The way people like me see the "struggle"for Australia is that it's at least a four way contest between neo liberals, the radical right, Islam and the Chinese colonists, what we hope to do is convince people to pick a side.

Keith Suter's statement that "most Muslims have managed to reconcile their faith with the modern world" competes with French President Francios Holland's statement that the Charlie Hedbo attack "had nothing to do with Islam", for the trophy the most bizarre statement that is contrary to self evident reality.

Keith is putting forward the oft repeated refrain that most Muslims are "moderate" and it is just a few hotheads who are giving these "moderates" a bad name. If Muslim "moderates" exist, Keith, could you please tell us what they believe in? Are "moderate" Muslims tolerant of homosexuality? Do they think that Muslims who want to become Christians or Buddhists should not be murdered? Do they think that the Prophet can be mocked? Do they disprove of Sharia Law? Do the think that raped women are the victims who should not be punished?

Well, if "moderate" Muslims are in the majority, how come all 57 Muslim states in the world reject all of these values? Name one "moderate" Muslim country which approves of these values.

If "moderate" Muslims are the majority in western countries, how is it that the Fatwa on Salmon Rushdie by Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini was not laughed off by the British Muslims? Why did the various representatives of British Muslim associations all state that not only should Rushdie be killed, they even hoped that they themselves could have the honour of murdering him themselves? That even applied to Yusaf Islam, formerly the pop star Cat Stevens, who was once famous for writing pop songs full of peace, love and mung beans.

If France has to mobilise 20,000 soldiers and paramilitaries to stop "French" Muslims from slaughtering "French" Jews, then how can you possibly say that France does not have a problem with the majority of it's Muslims? 80% of the children in French schools with overwhelming Muslim infestation refused today to observe a minutes silence for the victims of the Charlie Hedbo massacre.

But it is crucial for the advocates of multiculturalism to ignore the elephant in the room.

Obviously the world problem with Islam is too big for us to solve. Islam itself will have to work it out and in the interim perhaps millions will die. Their problem!

What we need to do is protect Aus citizens here as much as possible. This means harsh laws relating to terrorist acts and reducing the risk by stopping further muslim immigration and refugee intake. I would encourage any muslim that wants to leave, for whatever reason, to do so with the proviso that it is permanent and he/she drops his/her Aus citizenship.

Muslims have clearly shown for decades that they will not or cannot integrate and they have a completely different social and cultural rules to live by. Multiculturalism certainly failed in this regard.

When one reads about the atrocities committed by some of the Heads of a State in a fake photograph taken supposedly in front of the marches lat week I cringe.

Keith,

>> Should criticism be allowed of a religion or its leaders? This is called "blasphemy". <<

In my New Oxford American Dictionary blasphemy is “the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things”, similarly Wikipedia; neither of them contains “criticism of a religion or its leaders”.

Suse,

All Muslims read the Koran and believe that Muhammad was God's Prophet etc., etc., and if they don't then they are not Muslims. So we have a fair idea of what they think.

misanthrope,

The koran is not a big book and my copy is in Arabic and English so it is effectively two copies in one binding and one could easily read it in one day, say six hours if it were not for the strangeness of the text.
It does not flow easily for the native English reader.

Other than that you are quite right; how did you ever come to the conclusion that I am not a Muslim?
Deductive reasoning?

I do find it interesting that the same people who believe, [have fallen for], the global warming scam also believe, [have fallen for], the scam that Muslims are all sweetness & light.

I wonder, can it be defective genes?

Jardine k jardine "What did Jesus say when they asked him whether they should stone the adulteress?"
i believe the authors of the Bible stated that Jesus wanted to forgive the adulteress.

That doesn't negate all the violent things mentioned in the bible though does it?
Nor did it stop all the violence carried in the name of the Christian God over all these years.
Violent people are violent by nature as far as I am concerned, whether they believe they are doing this in the name of some imagined being or not....

Hahahahahahaha. Good point, Hasbeen! Brilliant!

Susie

You can believe there's no connection between what people believe, and what they do, but you're wrong.

Where in the New Testament does Jesus tell his followers to behead, rape, kill, enslave or persecute anyone?

Jardine, if you think no Christians read, believe or act upon the charming contents of the Old Testament, then you are very naive.

There is no proof at all that Jesus or his followers discounted the contents of the Old Testament at all.
How can you allow for the violence throughout the Bible, and make excuses or reasons for those passages, when you won't with the Quran?

However, I can cherry pick from the bible too.

Matthew: 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Psalm 137:9 " Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones"

Further to the point being claimed that Islamic scriptures contain calls to violence and the suggestion that violence is against the character of the Christian God (or his son who is supposedly the same).

http://biblehub.com/2_kings/2-24.htm Children mock a prophet for his baldness who then curses them and bears come out of the woods and maul/tear to pieces 42 children

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20.htm A number of decrees about punishments for various things including death penalties which thankfully are no longer carried out by followers of that god.

R0bert

JKJ,

"You can believe there's no connection between what people believe, and what they do, but you're wrong."

Tell me the connection between this and the Christian minister who presided over it?

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/video/2015/jan/14/manus-island-hunger-strike-rare-secret-recording-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

Which of Christ's precepts were being upheld by Morrison in his persecution of desperate people.

That's if you're saying that because of what Christ said (to his Jewish brethren) - that excuses the antithetical actions of those who call themselves Christian.

Robert, Suse,
Yes but the Catholic church had inquisitions to rid Christian Europe of that kind of nonsense:
http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-holy-inquisition.html#more
Over the last 900 years Christians have gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid internecine conflict and in the 21st century are bending over backwards to accommodate Muslims, Gays, Liberals and every sect of weirdos and fruit loops going around.
"Moderate" Muslims in the West could easily purge their communities of fanatics, they could simply drag them from their back yard mosques and bookshops and apply the boot to their rear ends, they could also reject the conversion of psychologically unstable people.
This will never happen because there's no such thing as a "moderate", that's a label invented by non Muslim Liberals and Leftists, Al Qaeda and IS sympathisers are no more or less Islamic than any other follower of Mohammed.

Yes! Suseonline it is called selective reading of the Bible, every Christian preacher does it when they give their sermon every Sunday or whenever, you never hear from them the passages you have quoted.

Ojnab,
Look what happened to the Branch Davidians at Waco, the Warren Jeffs/FLDS sect, the Twelve Tribes sect in Bavaria and so on.

There's absolutely zero tolerance of Christian extremism in the West, can you imagine a Christian sect trying to take over a suburb of Brussels or Stockholm the way Muslims have? It is to laugh, they'd be arrested if not gunned down, their children and all their property would be taken away and the ringleaders jailed.
The Russian government is also cracking down on Christian extremism:
http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/russia-doomsday-schismatic-migration-vissarion-christ-exodus-siberia
Christian extremism is stamped out anywhere it's detected, often with military force, the difference is that in this day and age Muslims will shoot back so the "secular" states won't touch them.

Spindoc, you hit the nail on the head with your expos'e.

Given that interpretations of the Quran look set to continue unchanged, and PC shortsightedness will continue ad infinitum, it would be wishful thinking to not expect more of the same.

"Free speech anyone?"

Both Tony Abbott and Julie Bishop recently advocated protection of free speech. It indeed would be a pleasant surprise if they demonstrated real courage by retracting from their present wimpish inaction, and proceeding with abolition of s18C of the racial discrimination Act, thus fulfilling one of their pre-election promises and -- more importantly -- advancing the national interest.

@Poirot,

<<Morrison in his persecution of desperate people>>

Bulls twang!

Those little darlings of yours are desperate only in the sense that they would do anything to con their way into Oz -- and lest we forget, Monis was one such 'DESPERATE' little darling not so long ago ...how many other Monis's are there in their ranks?

Poirot,
Minister Morrison is to be admired for stopping the boats from coming. Remember you lot and labor said it could not be done. No more arrivals of the con artists and shonks. The man deserves to be honoured. I hope to meet him one day and shake his hand.

The gate crashers held in detention are spoilt brats, whinging because the can't get what they want. They only have to tell the government that they want to go back home and it will be arranged. Best we make their old home look far more attractive than here. We do not want them, they are parasites.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence (see http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Bible-Quran-Violence.htm ) , the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran. For more, see
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

‘morning Raycom,

I’m glad somebody gets it. The three forces of Islam, Western PC and the fearful public are stressing our social fabric and something has to give. Islam is belatedly being recognized as a threat to our society and values, PC is desperate to tell us this is not about Islam, all is good and Islam really is a religion of peace. The problem for PC is they can’t actually show us that this is true and nor can Islam.

Our PC society criticizes many journalists and any in the public who express concern. We are Bigots, racists and suffer Islamophobia. We even take some to court and charge them.

Islamic Jihadi’s then say well, if their own society agrees with us and takes them to court they must be bad people even in their own society, so they can then legitimately target them for attacks because even our own society considers them a threat!

When the public begins to realize that like the case with Charlie, it is the left wing progressives amongst us who are setting up our own citizens as targets for terrorists, then something will really snap and for the progressives, it won’t be much fun.

The PC brigade on this thread continue to deconstruct Islam into component parts in order to trivialize its impact. They use relativism to compare Islam with other religions, historical despotic regimes and the good guys vs. bad guys within Islam itself.

Nothing new for PC of course. Its sole purpose is to deflect away from the real causes in our social, immigration, human rights and PC policies bequeathed to us by the progressives.

They even have the audacity to turn up at the funerals and “solidarity” marches to mourn the victims that they have set up!

No guilt or hypocrisy here, much

Onya Spindoc.

The importation of Muslims into Australia has seen....

A very high rate of violent crime among Muslim men, especially in the areas of drug trafficking, firearms offences and the sexual assault of women.

A high incidence of welfare dependency,

Demands for social exclusion and exemptions from the common law.

Demands from "moderate" Muslim organisation for Sharia Law and exemptions for Muslims from voting, as democracy is "against Islam."

Attacks on churches and synagogues.

Terrorism.

The phenomenon of “white flight” from areas of high Muslim infestation where ordinary Australians no longer feel safe.

The refusal of many teachers (especially female teachers) to work in schools with high Muslim student numbers because of their violent and misogynistic behaviour.

The provision of security guards in Sydney's public schools to protect staff and other students from violent Muslim boys.

Private school student numbers soaring as parents in Muslim areas protect their kids by getting them away from public schools full of violent Muslims boys.

The refusal by Muslim drivers to allow blind people with seeing eye dogs or passengers carrying alcohol to enter their cabs.

The fortification of every vital government department with steel gates and security guards (who are usually Muslims anyway).

Passengers on domestic flights having their bags checked for bombs.

Girls in bikinis on Sydney beaches having to put up with mobs of Muslim men wandering around the beaches making offensive remarks to them.

The necessity for armed guards on Jewish schools.

The repeal of Freedom of Speech in Australia because former Attorney general Nicola Roxon was worried about Muslims going crazy and killing someone over something that someone might have said about their violent religion.

And Susioncrack and Poirot have to worry when they go for a night out in Sydney, whether they can get into a taxi with a Muslim driver without getting raped.

‘morning LEGO,

Just to mention a few issues LEGO, and there are many more that could be added to that list.

To put this into further context we need to remember that all this from less than 2% of our community?

I wonder what this will look like when they reach 5% or 10% of our population? Oh, yes, I remember now, we will look just like Europe.

Spin and lego...

I can't imagine how it has come to this in a few short decades -- and it will get worse.

Our leaders opening side with the forces of intolerance.

Our media continually tell us that Muslims are peaceful, just like us, and maybe more.

Our schools and churches bend over backwards to accommodate islamic separatism and divisiveness.

Simple facts mean nothing anymore. Anyone looking at the impact of Muslim immigration in Europe should be saying ... whooooaaa - this is not a good idea. Yet our leaders betray us, bringing more of this people to our shores.

"Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad." We are mad.

The good thing is that Obama has a plan to fight radicalism in Muslim communities: dialogue and more community services. What could go wrong?

"The good thing is that Obama has a plan to fight radicalism in Muslim communities: dialogue and more community services."

ROTFL to the power of 2.

'Psalm 137:9 " Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones'

actually it is the secularist who take this literally Susie and you know it. It should read sad is those who mutilate the unborn.

Kactuz, LEGO,
To look at it another way; who's worse "Western Oriental Gentlemen" who follow conservative interpretations of the Koran or "Western Oriental Gentlemen" who have abandoned the faith of their parents and immersed themselves in the neo liberal free for all?
Because the way I see it The Mongols, Notorious, The Afghan Murderers and all the other "Western Oriental" street gangs are a lot more of a threat to our safety than Hizb ut Tahrir and the like.
Fundamentalist Islam at least sets some boundaries for these low functioning, congenitally violent people, it's routines and rituals are set up to keep people with sub 90 IQ levels calm and putting one foot in front of the other.

Just for interests sake, the attack by Monis in Sydney is now officially recognized as an act of terrorism.

The Federal Government has said so, plenty on Google at
https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=federal+government+declares+monis+a+terrorist%3F

Runner, Jay et al,

Please check out my posts in "Its Islam, not Islamism" at bottom.

It is very clear that Islam is not a religion. It is much more than that. And it gets more scarier as the Muslim population grows anywhere in the world. Their aim is Dar es Salaam (complete submission to Islam).

I still can't believe the spineless worms who live among us. Their ignorance and dishonesty is vile. They should all be held for treason. We really are living in a Dark Age. All over their incredibly stupid ideology.

Is Mise, gee! if you believed (but the Government said so), they would be the last gtoup of people I would belive, that goes for anything that spews out of their mouths,

"Is Mise, gee! if you believed (but the Government said so), they would be the last gtoup of people I would belive, that goes for anything that spews out of their mouths,"
Ojnab,

I didn't say that I believed them, I said that it's now Official; two entirely different things.
However in this case I do believe that Joe Hockey said it.
It has to do with insurance pay outs and the Insurers were going to duck out of payments because it was said to be not a terrorist incident.

Joe has come down on the side of the victims.

So it wasn't a terrorist incident really but for insurance purposes it really was.

Sad, but humourous.

Constance,

"I still can't believe the spineless worms who live among us. Their ignorance and dishonesty is vile. They should all be held for treason. We really are living in a Dark Age. All over their incredibly stupid ideology."

Ahh....daily we're showered with your Christian goodwill to your fellow man...it's truly something to behold.

Islam is continuing on as it always has done.
Just have a read of this link;

http://tinyurl.com/18r

In this context makes the excuser's argument the Christians and Hitler
were just as bad look absolutely pathetic.
How long before France looks like Northern Nigeria with its own Boko Haram ?
Especially have a look at India's history with Islam, puts in context
the India Pakistan troubles.

Runner, Jay et al,

Please check out my posts in "Its Islam, not Islamism" at bottom.

I have read this before Constance. It just shows that people are willfully ignorant. Then again the denial of the adamic nature displays a greater ignorance. That is why every day some fool acts in shock/horror when an islamist does what they have been doing in Israel and all over the world for 1400 years.

Constance,

"I still can't believe the spineless worms who live among us. Their ignorance and dishonesty is vile. They should all be held for treason. We really are living in a Dark Age. All over their incredibly stupid ideology."

Yes indeed - I am convinced most of those you allude to are driven by a blind hate of Western systems/values and side with Islam out of spite.

Constance,
Like others here, I have read that list before but it is worthy of posting again from time to time. To remind others of what sort of a future we face.

"I still can't believe the spineless worms who live among us. Their ignorance and dishonesty is vile. They should all be held for treason. We really are living in a Dark Age. All over their incredibly stupid ideology."

I took it you were mainly referring to our politicians and I would wholeheartedly agree. They cannot be so blind that they can't see the obvious, they simply ignore it and hope it will just go away.

We really are in desperate need of polys with spine and common sence.

‘morning Keith,

Busy as you and many others like you may be, in sorting out the “Soul of Islam”, does anyone want to discuss the enormity of what they are trying to appease?

The Institute for Economics and Peace reports 24,866 Islamic Terror attacks between 9/11 and the end of 2013. At least 306,381 people were killed or critically injured. This includes 126,165 killed and 180,216 critically injured.

The Global Terrorism Index shows a 61% increase from 2012 to 2013, (11,133 deaths to 17,958 deaths), and that “extreme interpretations of Wahhabi Islam are the key commonality.”

How might things look for 2014? I have reproduced statistics for the months of Jan/July/Nov. 2014.

Research by the BBC and Kings College shows that for the month of November 2014 alone there were 664 Islamic Jihad attacks across 14 countries with 5,042 deaths.

In January, 2014 there were 239 attacks, in 23 countries with 1,413 dead and 2,162 critically injured.

In July 7 to August 8, 2014, statistics show there were 235 attacks, 2,750 deaths and 8,600 injured.

Averaging the figures for these months and multiplying by 12, we arrive at a projected 4,548 attacks and 36,819 deaths. This would be an increase from 2013 to 2014 of over 100%.

The GTI report concludes that “Over the 2012/2013 period, the number of countries that experienced more than 50 deaths rose from 15 to 24. This highlights that not only is the intensity of terrorism increasing, its breadth is increasing as well.”

Before the PC “relativists” get too carried away with “Ah well there are lots of other groups committing terror attacks, it’s not just Islam”.

The National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC) states that of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide (2011), there were only 170 by a category described as “other”, and 77 by “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups.

Interestingly the NCTC records separately the 1,926 terror attacks by “secular/political/anarchists” which were primarily identified as Marxist, Communist, Socialist sympathizers (Progressives).

Now who would have thought that the Leftwing terrorists would out perform the “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups the Progressives so love to blame?

Well Spindoc the figures you have relayed plus those in my last post
makes me wonder what effect will the coming economic crash have on all this ?

That there is a crash coming seems certain, even our present
government thinks so if you read between the lines.
Will the terrorists have access to enough money and have the ability
to move around the world as they have ?

Saudi Arabia with low economic activity meaning low oil consumption
will be in economic straits as they carry a lot of do nothing people
on welfare and when that stops ?
Will the ISIS and its hangers on turn inwards on Arab governments ?

These are critical questions that think tanks need to explore.

I suspect in time, Islamism will go the way of Christianity. In my lifetime, the church's roles in ones life has diminished dramatically. Many never give it a thought.

I still remember as a child, when learning to crochet, being told it was a sin to work on Sundays. Still remember the debate that comment caused in the household *Over Christmas, house was filled with family plus families wheat carters)

Bottom line was, that one only did essential chores on as Sunday. Not a religious household either. along with that, one never ate meat on a Friday. Not even Marmite or Bonox. One always went to church on Sunday.

I believe that extremist Islamic leaders know this. They are trying to stop the tide.

What they want, is for the west to turn on the Islamic world. This gives them more power, among their own people.

We must only condemn terrorists, not those who follow the Islamic faith.

Like Christianity, there many sects, across many cultures and nations.

Flo: "We must only condemn terrorists, not those who follow the Islamic faith."

So by your reckoning, we should not condemn the many terrorists who follow the Islamic faith.

Flo I remember those times quite well that you mention, to Sunday School and church we must go, in the end I much prefer an Atheistic point of view to the Godly one.
Saudi Arabia, America's ally, but indirectly responsible for the 9/11 attack, the details are being held by Obama and not to be released. Having travelled extensively in the 1980's to countries that I now would not visit in the Middle East, something has gone terribly wrong, most people on this post are blaming Islam, but is this the real reason? hatred is the order of the day now, why?. Poverty is on the increase, and a world recession could be looming, people have no hope in life if just existing, only their religion.
One wonders if the Aborigines when they were shot and killed by the English,and forced to give up the Dreamtime for Christianity, perhaps they felt like we do now that very soon we will have to pray to Allah five times a day, nothing changes from then to now, we hated the Japanese in WW2 and vice versa, lives lost, for what? for them now to build our submarines for war purposes to kill others who we do not like. To kill is cheap, it gets rid of the masses

My big picture on this
- Islam in its current form is a threat to many of my values. It still appears to be quite a way from any broad reformation that will change that.
- The mix between culture and religion is a messy one (as is sometimes the mixing of race into the issue). Some of the issues of culture ar so mixed together with riligion that some follow cultural practices utterly convinced that they are part if their faith.
- I don't think the causes of hatred of the west by many in the muslim world can be neatly attrubuted to any single cause. I do think that badly handled western intervention in the middle east over a sustained period has been a gift to those who want conflict.
- I think there are those who want conflict on both sides, who do whatever it takes to keep or create tension where it need not be.
- I don't personally have a high opinion of the muslim prophet, I am though convinced that those who want to make an issue of similar feelings are an ongoing gift to those tying to provoke conflict. I don't want to make the job of muslim extrimist recruiters any easier than it needs to be.
- I think that many of those who move to western countries set out to be extremists or to raise their children as extremists. Thise who want to continually snipe at muslims help the extremists more than they help integration.
- I do think we need to focus on achievable outcomes, I can't see any posibility ofmall muslims being evicted from western countries so any solutions need to be in a different directiin. A direction that is likely to reduce tensions, not inflame them.
- I think that when all is said and done western secular democracy creates a far better life than any theocratic states. We generally have to work at it to drive most raised here to extremism.

R0bert

Well said Robert, thoughtful post.

Hear, hear, R0bert.

‘morning R0bert,

Hear, hear, well said, thoughtful post.

You say this is your “big picture”? You wouldn’t know a big picture if you stepped on it and it hit you in the face.

Big pictures start at the top not at the bottom. Every analytical process on the planet starts, like Kepner Tregoe etc., at the top. Every issue is like a pyramid, the top has the few big issues, the base, as it spreads out contains the content. This starting at the bottom is very convenient for those determined to deconstruct issues rather than analyze them.

Starting at the bottom rather than the top is great if you want to express your “I think” mantra. As I said earlier,

<<The Political/Media group continues to deconstruct Islam into component parts in order to trivialize its impact. They use relativism to compare Islam with other religions, historical despotic regimes and the good guys vs. bad guys within Islam itself.>>

When you can work upwards and away from content and address the issue of 469,000 deaths at the hands of Islam, aided and abetted by Western PC, you will have arrived.

In the meantime please continue with your version of the “big picture” that is alien to those capable of original thought.

If C4 were brains, you wouldn’t create enough “bang” to raise your eyebrows!

So spindoc can you try to articulate just what you disagree with and why? Do you have any objections that can actually be explained is flaming me all you have?

R0bert

Robert,
Fair points but Atlanticism or neo Liberalism or globalism, whatever you want to call it has nothing to offer anyone, Islam offers everything people want and need and then some.
Islam is however an Arab racial supremacist movement and it's Arabic followers do see themselves as superior to others, a master race if you will:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2941401/posts
When idealogues talk about a master race they don't mean it in the sense that Arabs are to be overlords, rather Mohammed is the archetype, he's "Islamic Man" in the same way that "Soviet Man" and "Aryan" man were the archetypes for 20th century leftists.

Musa Cerantonio explains to John Safran that White converts are highly prized by Arab propagandists and that racism is part of the Sunni Arab movements:
http://www.theage.com.au/good-weekend/musa-cerantonio-muslim-convert-and-radical-supporter-of-islamic-state-20150116-121c8s.html

The 'white widow': a Muslim convert 'rebel in search of a cause'?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/27/white-widow-muslim-samantha-ewthwaite

Anti Racists might find some allies in radical Islam but they'd have a fight on their hands trying to "reform" the faith.
Racism In Islaam: Message To The Sunni World :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2qkoISZogo

‘morning R0bert,

<<So spindoc can you try to articulate just what you disagree with and why? Do you have any objections that can actually be explained is flaming me all you have? >>

Certainly R0bert, only too happy to help out. Firstly, you might want to increase your intellectual height so that things don’t keep going “over your head”. You can do this by standing on a chair, your wife’s’ sewing box or the kids toy box.

Then you can “read” the original article that started this thread followed by;

Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 12:30:38 PM
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 12:31:18 PM
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 12:31:18 PM
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 12:32:48 PM
Posted by spindoc, Thursday, 15 January 2015 4:48:36 PM
Posted by spindoc, Friday, 16 January 2015 7:57:22 AM
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 18 January 2015 10:15:21 AM
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 18 January 2015 6:29:07 PM

Then you could read some of the other comments on this thread so that you can avoid the embarrassment of posting the irrelevant and out of context tosh you puke onto threads.

Then we can address the issues so close to your ideological heart. Such things as; How do you justify appeasing an ideology that has slaughtered 460,000 humans since 2001? What is it about Islam that appeals to you? Why do you avoid the big picture issues whilst asserting you have the “big picture” perspective? Why do you “borrow” the opinions of others? When are you going to develop an opinion of your own? Do you agree that appeasement by the left has caused the Islamic slaughter we are now experiencing in Western Democracies? Why are the left of politics “targeting” our own for Islamic terrorists to attack? Does this bother you?

Ah well, so many questions and so few answers. Still, articulating these questions seems to have blown your feeble mind, God knows what trying to find any answers might do to the space between your ears?

Can I “articulate”? Yep!

Can you answer? Nope!

Jay said;
Islam is however an Arab racial supremacist movement and it's Arabic
followers do see themselves as superior to others, a master race if you will:

Not really, not while they continue to marry their cousins.
Why is it do you think that Arab countries are such a mess ?
It is only the income from oil that has enabled the region to make
a veneer of progress. Ultimately they will be dependant on the Jazer
tax but as those being taxed convert or depart they are then
dependant on their own intellectual resources.

Then I see most Arab countries becoming failed states.
Already we see a few examples, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya.
That will be the fate of all Arab states and some other islamic states
such as Indonesia and Malaysia because they are not Arab might not
fail like the Arabs but as the oil income declines may have a very
difficult time.

The problem the west will face is what to do about them ?
Yhe "progressives" (Hell I hate that word) will want to intervene
and "help" them. The best we can do at that time will be to let them
stew in their own juice.
It is possible enough of them will realise the Koran is wrong and
marriage with cousins is wrong. If the practise was widely banned
it would take generations for the effects to be diluted.

Hopefully then they would no longer have such bizarre behaviors.

Baz just in case you have forgotten, a present day Queen whose consort is a close relative,is not of the Koran variety, it takes all sorts of people to make the world go around, even fathers knocking off daughters, strange world isn't it. eh, a hole is a hole regardless of what you believe in

Thats right Ojnab, European Royalty did it for similar reasons as
Arabs do it, ie keep everything in the family.

Of course rural communities know better, that was why English villages
had Fairs, it was a deliberate move to get boys and girls from other
villages to meet up. Some I believe were quite deliberate about the
reason.

Mohammad was asked if it was OK and he asked Gabriel to check and the
message back was that it was OK.
So moslems are exempt from genetics.

An interesting aside to this, because it has been going on for so
long, even if a couple are not closely related their children can be
affected because of the close relationships over many generations in their community.

One of the great pre- and post-9/11 ‘war on Islam’ myths is that so-called Islamic terrorism begins and ends with jihad. The myth goes that young Islamic men are continually being radicalised by exposure to too much recitation of the Q’uran’s violent bits and/or through the influence of some infidel-hating Imam at the local mosque.

If the West is so threatened by Islamic jihad, then it has a funny way of showing it. Since WWII, all the secular (mostly left-leaning) national liberation movements in the Arab/Islamic world – Iran under Mossedeh, Egypt under Nasser, the Ba’athists of Iraq and Syria, the PLO under Arafat, the 1970s Afghan government and the Jamahiriya tribal-democracy in Libya – have all been brutally overthrown (or soon to be) by policies executed by the West’s military and secret services.

The overinflated myth of Islamic jihad very neatly externalises the terrorist evil, while absolving the West from having to look at the state-terrorism so far perpetrated on otherwise secular-oriented Islamic nations by our own Western governments.

‘morning Killarney,

I think you might have to check a few things in your post. The quote “War on Islam” is not true and very mischievous of you. The expression is “War on Terror”.

Isn’t it a bit contradictory to firstly deny as a myth the radicalization of terrorists and then blame that this mythical radicalization on the West? You can’t have it both ways.

I think there are about 56 Islamic nations and I can’t find one of those nice “secular-oriented, left leaning” States?

In the M.E. they all seem to be totalitarian dictatorships of three basic types, Clerical/Religious Dictatorships, Military Dictatorships or Benign Dictatorships (Royal Families).

As for your expression “overinflated myth of Islamic jihad”. The families of the 460,000 that have been slaughtered since 2001 might have a slightly different perspective. You might want to tell them who killed their loved ones if it was not Islamic Jihadi’s’?

If it was indeed Jihadi’s, then by all means make a case that they have a good excuse for their atrocities. As I understand it, you believe it they are justified because of the “brutal” overthrow of brutal dictators by western military “policies”.

This saves many problems of logic for you of course, as you have nicely wiped at least 1,300 years of history from the debate.

I feel so sorry for these nice “ otherwise secular-oriented left leaning” dictators. It’s getting tougher every day to keep one’s seat at the UN.

"I think you might have to check a few things in your post. The quote “War on Islam” is not true and very mischievous of you. The expression is “War on Terror”."

Lol!....that was nicely cooked up by the Georgie Bush administration - around the same time as they were bleating "Why does everybody hate us?"...as they swaggered over to Iraq and bombed the bejesus out of it.

Great points as usual, Killarney.

spindoc,

One wonders why you're so belligerent lately?

This "overreaction" to RObert is a case in point.

"Then you could read some of the other comments on this thread so that you can avoid the embarrassment of posting the irrelevant and out of context tosh you puke onto threads."

You're rather a coarse little flower aren't you

spindoc

‘Isn’t it a bit contradictory to firstly deny as a myth the radicalization of terrorists and then blame that this mythical radicalization on the West? You can’t have it both ways.’

I was not saying that the radicalisation of (Islamic) terrorists is a myth; rather, the belief that the radicalisation is entirely religious-based.

‘I think there are about 56 Islamic nations and I can’t find one of those nice “secular-oriented, left leaning” States?’

Funny that. I don’t suppose it has anything to do with all that Western regime-changing I spoke about.