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The Forum > Article Comments > Charlie Hebdo: freedom of speech, religion and co-existence > Comments

Charlie Hebdo: freedom of speech, religion and co-existence : Comments

By Tristan Ewins, published 13/1/2015

We need to avoid an escalation of rhetoric which would only polarise our society along religious and ethnic grounds. Here,freedom should ideally be balanced with honest self-criticism.

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Great article, Freedom has to free all religions that seek to operate in the political sphere.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 8:06:16 AM
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"Western Christianity has largely made its peace with liberalism." It had done so largely because it no longer has the power to do otherwise.
Posted by Asclepius, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 8:53:11 AM
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Excellent article. Mutual respect and an assumption of good faith is the most fundamental basis of a decent social structure.

If those things exist, then it is possible for good and fruitful discussions about the things we disagree on. If they don't, then we are necessarily reduced to shouting (and shooting) at each other across an unbridgeable gulf of fear and misassumptions.

The world has become a small place; humans are now one great tribe and just as in any tribe there will be times we don't much like what other members of the tribe are doing. The oldies will always cluck their concerns about the decline of standards in the young; the youngsters will mock their elders for being stuck in a world that no longer exists; married women will gossip to each other about the scandalous doings of the single ones and their own heroic efforts to keep their men from straying; married men will keep their thoughts to themselves and smile at their sons and daughters enjoying the flirtatious dance of youth and so it goes on.

Amid those universalities the things that divide us are very tiny superficialities and just as in any tribe there are some who seek to use those tiny differences to acquire power for themselves and one of the best ways to do that is to accentuate fears and insecurities.

We can do better. We MUST do better.
Posted by Craig Minns, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 9:33:51 AM
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The trouble with saying that extreme hate speech and Holocaust denial are exceptions to an absolute right to free speech is that once an exception is made for one of the world's religions but not the others, one and one only is set up as sacrosanct and somehow more deserving than the others.
And to say that this exceptionalism in necessary to prevent the rehabilitation of fascism has been shown to be a fail after the recent events in Ukraine.
Extreme hate speech should be considered an exception to free speech because it is extreme hate speech, not because it is directed at this or that entity.
Posted by halduell, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 10:01:18 AM
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Tristan's ignorance of Christ and His teachings shows he has no hope of understaning when it comes to Islam. He is obviously oblivous to the stink of secular culture and how it has led to this situation. You would think these socialist have enough egg on their face but instead they continue to defend their hopelessly flawed rheteric even when their own gets slaughtered.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 10:10:14 AM
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Another kumbayah article saying we should all hold hands, close our eyes, sing silly feel-good songs, say nice thing about those who hate us and our values -- and all will be well.

Funny that "honest self-criticism" is recommended for us, but not demanded of Muslims. That would be a waste of time because you will never get honest self-criticism from a Muslim.

Mr Ewins, in case you don't know, the teachings of Islam polarise everything along religious (and ethnic) grounds. Islam teaches hate, discrimination and violence against non-Muslims. If you don't know this, you don't know Islam and you are not even paying attention to the news.
Posted by kactuz, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 10:49:28 AM
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I am making no apologies for militant, fundamentalist, terroristic, radical Islam. I am saying that there are liberalising influences. And that engagement could help promote those liberalising influences at home - and prevent a similar attack occurring in Australia. I also note how the Christian ethic of 'turning the other cheek' can reconcile Christianity with liberal tolerance. But the 'Christian' regime in Uganda is a reality. For the record I defend the Christian faith on the Left - and it's a difficult struggle. Tell me - what is the 'alternative' to 'the stink of secular culture' as you put it?
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 11:09:28 AM
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BTW working with radical/militant Islam was considered acceptable under Reagan - who funded and backed the Mujahadeen! Largely its about geo-politics. And for the record I encourage honest and critical self-reflection for EVERYONE.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 11:11:49 AM
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Instill enough fear through violence/violent reprisals and you may still some but not all tongues.

But you will never ever be able to control what people think and or prevent them rail against inherent injustice.

And when there are enough of them, no power on earth will stand in their way.

What do you think gave rise to revolution and democracy; or indeed, the Arab spring!
Not Madame Guillotine or injustice!

Albeit, one of the few effective ways of stilling independent or original thought!

For speech to remain inherently free it must include the right to offend/re-offend.

Albeit, no reasonable man truly secure in his belief system, would necessarily chose to be offended, but return with some clever and humorous repartee.

If a smile could offend in some circumstances, should we outlaw smiles or laughter, just as Bronwin has seemingly tried to do in parliament?

There is something of a pointed barb in derision, which nonetheless, remains a two edged sword!

An unexamined life is hardly worth living, ditto this or that belief system, which for many people is something they contract like a disease, rather than any process of thought or questioning, why is it so!

i.e., who gave you specifically, the right to speak in God's name, and decide his justice.

It's not inheritable, and certainly not by those inherently evil!

Even if it's right, how can it include injustice and the spilling of innocent blood, which is expressly forbidden in all the tenants of Islam!

And the attempted silencing of Charlie Hebdo, was both intensely evil and spilled massive amounts, most of it, innocent blood!

Even so, there will be a small and inherently evil cadre who approve, and even though these people are not actively expressing their hate, we cannot, nonetheless peacefully coexist with them or the minds they convert or brainwash; to make things as inherent evil and against God's law, somehow acceptable?

Acceptable?

Who says?

God?

Ah so, can you ask him to tone it down a bit, the (extreme bass mode) noise is killing me!

Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 11:27:13 AM
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kactuz you need to ave a read of the bible as well them mate. The author's point is valid, all religions will go bad when they have control of the political process. We see this in Africa and the posts of runner.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 12:11:26 PM
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Tristan, we will never find "honest self criticism" in any human being, its not part of the human condition. That's exclusively why we are human and thus imperfect. Degrees of subjectivity a part n' parcel of being human. Even the most cold, detached (as far as anyone can tell) analytical & intellectual of all scientists is polluted with subjectivity.
I question 2% of the Australian population who choose to report to ABS what religion they believe in. Reporting to ABS are those who are brave enough to report it in the first place to government bodies! This fact has significant bearing because of the rapidly changing geopolitical landscape, thanks to that most trendy of electronic medias - internet.
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if this 2% is now doubled, encouraged once again by that organism known as the internet...
Now don't get me wrong, the internet is a marvelous idea, but the whole notion of "Trust" takes on a completely different plane of existence unlike anything else in the history of human civilization, solely because of the internet itself and the information it communicates. Like an old teacher from the 90's said to me, everything you see on the net could and can be BS! tell that to the young folk today and they wont believe you. That is why ISIL is growing in numbers..

To live "harmoniously" in a liberal democracy such as France or even Australia, one HAS to be tolerant and forgiving, both core christian values, weather one likes or even believes, in Christianity or not.
We either tolerate each other or we don't, it really boils down to that simple concept.. and those killers in the Charlie Hebdo incident clearly do not tolerate and forgive. Like I've said on this site before in another article related to this incident, they choose to be judge, jury and executioner in one act of destruction of others lives.
What's the alternative to tolerance and forgiveness? hostility and paranoia everywhere? WWIII even? in which case it will be over very quickly once nukes get launched anyway..
Posted by Rojama, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 12:49:40 PM
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It is really quite simple.
Power always sooner or later corrupts those who get to wield it.
Even more so when power is exercised or justified in the "name of 'God'", especially the Middle Eastern monotheistic power-and-control-seeking cults Christianism, Islamism and Judaism.

The "sacred power" that monotheistic creationist-religions claim to bring, or would extend into the entire human world is, it says, the creator-god of the universe. Whereas in fact, the power that such religions actually exercises, or would everywhere exercise if unimpeded, is that of the humanly-governed political, social, economic, cultural, and altogether, merely exoteric institutionalization of the totally of humankind.

The institutionalizing-power that such exoteric monotheistic religion exercises , or would everywhere exercise if allowed to function at will, is of an inherently intolerant nature, because it is self-possessed by a reductionist, and tribalistic, and exclusively exoteric mentality, that cannot accept any non-"orthodox", extra-tribal or extra-institutional non-monoetheistic, or, othewise, esoteric exceptions to its self-appointed "rule".

Islam of course specializes in this tactic. Many "orthodox" Islamicists even consider Sufism to be a "heresy" - execution being the punishment.
But many/most right-wing "catholics" also subscribe to and practice this tactic too.
Dont be fooled by the smiling face of the new pope. Remember that most/all of the in power "catholic" cardinals were put in place by the two previous right-wing popes who were especially favorable to the secretive totalitarian cult opus dei - and similar back-to-the-past "traditionalist" cults.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 1:15:13 PM
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Cobber,

You are speaking to a preacher's boy. I may have not entered a church in decades, but I have probably forgotten more of the Bible then you know.

Let me remind you that "My kingdom is not of this world" and "give unto Ceasar the things which are Ceasar's and unto god the things that are God's..."

Separation of religion and state is easy in Christianity (in theory), but Islam is as much political as social as religious. For Muslims to fully live the tenets of their religion, Islam must control the political process. Why do you think that Muslims in the UK want (and have gotten) sharia courts? What do you think is the purpose of the islamic State?

Do you know what happens to a non-Muslim under sharia? How can a Muslim believe that the laws of a democratic society, made by men and obviously not perfect, can be better that Allah's perfect law? How can Muslims honesty believe that all people are equal when the Quran makes it very clear that infidels are evil, untrustworthy, sinful people ("lower than animals") while they are righteous paragons of virtue ("the best of people") because of their (blind) faith in Islam? This yet another reason why Muslims have no place in the West.

And yes, you are right -- keep religion away from politics! (even if I doubt that is possible given that both are based on ideals that collide and contrast). But we can always pray, right?
Posted by kactuz, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 1:44:04 PM
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I find this article most offensive. The thought that you can kill someone because they hurt your feelings by saying something against your imaginary friend.
This is Australia and we are are a free country. If anyone cannot handle this then they are free to leave and the sooner the better.
Perhaps the author would be more comfortable somewhere else where the thought of death and injury is used to quiet people who do not agree with him.
Posted by JBowyer, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 2:01:56 PM
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What a mealy mouth bit of pacifist clap trap.

Yes Tristan. you can have all the meaningful communication you like, until with Muslims, that is, they are strong enough.

The only communication you will have then is with their sword, as it beheads you.

Talk about a blind man in a fools paradise.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 2:46:38 PM
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JBowyer - There is not anywhere where I excuse Terrorism or murder. I recommend you read the article again and point to exactly where you think I do that... I recognise that there are Sunni and Shia regimes both of which promote repression and barbarity. But that does not justify intervention. Yes - defend ourselves if attacked; But the West has created the IS problem by supporting a proxy war in Syria. Over 200,000 dead. Syria was targeted as an ally of Iran. Iran only felt so bold as to pursue its nuclear program because of the power vacuum after the Second Gulf War. Some of these regimes are barbaric. That's no excuse for thinking we can change them via the barrel of a gun. If we give up on liberalisation and moderation then we will reap what we sow. Yes violent extremists should be excluded from migration... But when it comes to refugees fleeing the conflicts we have helped create - that is a different thing.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 7:09:57 PM
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Wishful thinking Tristan.
Posted by jamo, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 7:53:51 PM
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I think Tristan you need to re-read your article and read what I told you. My answer still stands.
How dare you say a fellow Australian has to shut up if they do not believe what you believe or their murder is justified.
You idiots think you will have the support of these crazy muslims and they will let you live if you keep whining that we all have to change? Here is an idea go to Nigeria and use your superlative intellect on boko haram, I reckon they would re-adjust your thinking for you.
Posted by JBowyer, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 9:41:17 PM
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Tristan you ask

'Tell me - what is the 'alternative' to 'the stink of secular culture' as you put it? '

The alternative is to work on truth rather than moral relativism and secular dogma. Your depiction of evil done in the name of Christ is deceitful or naive especially as you know Mohammed not only lived an opposite life to Christ but taught the opposite. It is obvious that those killing or doing evil in the name of Christ were 'Christians' in name only while muslims killing in Allah's name are doing his work. Your Christophobic article also ignores the gross atrocities done and being done in the name of no god. Moral relativism allows and encourages it.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 10:17:45 PM
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Here is serious evidence of another Govt false flag attack. More lies and deceptions by our pressitute media.
http://stormcloudsgathering.com/charlie-hebdo-shootings-censored-video
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 13 January 2015 11:01:18 PM
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JBowyer - Again never tried to justify the murders and if you want offensive you're the one whose comments are extreme; offensive to me. And rather than calling for censorship I only called for sensitivity and engagement.

runner: Yes I accept these people are Christian 'in name only'; We don't disagree there.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 7:22:49 AM
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Tristan read again my advice. Go to Nigeria and have a reasoned debate with boko haram and then knock on my door.
You have learned one nasty little trick from the religonists, always claim to be the victim!
Posted by JBowyer, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 7:42:51 AM
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Arjay,

"Here is serious evidence of another Govt false flag attack. More lies and deceptions by our pressitute media."

Thanks for that, the enlargement of the moment of the shooting clarifies a few things.
The puff of dust appears consistent with a bullet passing through the head and impacting the concrete, initially I thought it to be powder smoke.
The video is also lying, especially the references to the 7.62 x 39 round which is, as I said, on the puny side of medium powered; particularly misleading is the shot of a melon exploding under the impact of a high velocity bullet, there is no way that an AK47 round would do that.

The only conspiracy theory that I see is Conspiracy Theorists conspiring to produce a conspiracy theory.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 7:52:34 AM
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Is Mise you agreed with on the post the other day now you change you opinion? The shot is fired in front of the cops head. No gun recoil, no blood, no mark on the pavement. It had to be a dummy bullet. The news reported that this cop was dead. JFK had the whole back of his head blown out from at least 150m.This was less than a metre. AK47 is a very powerful assault weapon. Have a closer view Is Mise and no lies please.
http://stormcloudsgathering.com/charlie-hebdo-shootings-censored-video
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 9:30:19 AM
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Very interesting video Arjay.

He certainly doesn't appear to be shot at all. As you say, there's no impact, no blood, plus there's a puff of smoke about a foot away from his head.

I live on a farm and occasionally kill sheep by point blank shot to the head. The whole body moves violently with the shot, and there's blood straight away, and that's with just a .22 magnum, and the muzzle is closer than in that video.

In my opinion, from what I can see of the zoomed-in slow-motion multiple replays, that guy definitely wasn't shot.

However I can't explain what happened to him, because if that is right, he should be alive. But I thought the media reported him as dead? But if he's not, surely that would have come to light?
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Wednesday, 14 January 2015 9:53:53 PM
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Arjay,

Yes, I've changed my opinion and you changed it for me by putting up the much clearer video and with the still in it.

The angle of the rifle, the head and the spray of dust from the shot are all consistent with the gendarme being shot then and there.

I'll say it again, the AK 47 is NOT a high powered rifle, it is ballisticly speaking on the PUNY side of medium powered, and as I also said the gunmen could have been using reduced loads which would account for the lack of apparent recoil.

Another thing there is no such a thing as a blank bullet, the bullet is the bit that come out the end and does the damage; blank rounds do not have bullets.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 15 January 2015 12:16:08 AM
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The puff of dust is consistent with the gases exiting the barrel, ie muzzle blast, which is a mite lesser in a gas operated self-loader but still very noticeable.

The offender would have been using fully jacketed projectiles which do not expand when passing through a body, including a head. Even a bone of substantial size might only cause the projectile to yaw, slightly deform the blunt end, but no marked deformation of the tip and no expansion.

I found the barrel to be pointing where it was said to have been, at the head. It is entirely possible the bullet channel was not much larger than the bullet width. Hit about where the spine joins the head - the offender seemed to aim for that area as an assassin might do - the result would have been immediate limp paralysis and death very soon after.

Apart from that, it is a bit much to imagine that the many independent people and investigators involved in the aftermath would have conspired together. What for?
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 15 January 2015 1:42:20 AM
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Is Mise, "Another thing there is no such a thing as a blank bullet, the bullet is the bit that come out the end and does the damage; blank rounds do not have bullets"

If I might add to that, blank cartridges could not have operated the action of the AK47. There would have to be a threaded cap on the end of the barrel, replacing any flash eliminator. The cap would have stood out like the proverbial dog's balls. But what would have been the point of it? Because it would have ensured that the firearm exploded, seriously injuring the offender if a live round, ie ball ammunition was used.

If a blank cartridge and the necessary cap was used, there would not have been that tell-tale puff of expanding gases raising the dust of the pavement.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 15 January 2015 1:53:32 AM
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Today was the first day I even paid any real attention to these events in Paris. And to be honest I really haven't looked into it that much. I haven't watched the news on TV for over a week and the news articles I saw online I only glanced over briefly. I haven't even seen the video of the police officer being supposedly shot.

But I'm standing next to Arjay with the false flag attack angle on this one.

While you were are discussing 'Freedom of Speech V's Respect of Religion' I watched one single video and found out it has nothing to do with any of that stuff at all.

It has nothing to do with Islam.
Nothing to do with comical satire.
And nothing to do with Anti-Semitism.

So I'm going to let you all watch the same video I did, and if that's not enough how about a video where Francois Hollande says the Illuminati were behind the Paris attacks and that it has nothing to do with Muslims.

This is an article I found "Francois Hollande says Illuminati behind Paris attacks"
Watch the first video in the article.
http://winteractionables.com/?p=17746
Then watch the interview I first watched... and then WAKE UP!!
http://youtu.be/vBzWC3mvwnU

How many of you people have wasted the last 4 or 5 days thinking about all this stuff in a completely flawed context I wonder...
This whole thing had absolutely nothing at all to do with what you all think it did...
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 15 January 2015 3:11:28 AM
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" I haven't even seen the video of the police officer being supposedly shot."

That says it all.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 15 January 2015 8:38:43 AM
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Dear Tristan.

I would love to co exist with Muslims in a state of "self respect and peaceful co existence". But unfortunately, the Islamic religion does not allow Muslims to do that. Muslims are obliged by the orders of their God and their Prophet to always be hostile to non Muslims and to spread Islam through violence. Tristan, I think that when the people from a hostile ideology point to their scriptural teachings as justification for killing you, I think that you should have the courtesy to take them seriously.

It is true that the Christian religion was once "warped" to justify violence against non Christians, but with Islam it is the other way around. Attacking infidels is not proscribed in the Islamic faith, it is prescribed as an act of religious piety and conformity to written Islamic teachings.

The reason why islam will remain impervious to change is because Mohammad commanded that the Islam of his lifetime was perfect and it could never change. To criticise or try to modernise Islam is blasphemy. And in Islam, Tristan, the penalty for blasphemy is death.

Your position appears to me, to be one of engagement with Islam with both sides indulging in tolerance and self respect. Everything I see about Islam seems to indicate that such a position would never be considered by Muslims because it is against their religion. Islam is a hostile ideology with dreams of world domination similar to International Socialism and National Socialism. These people are our self declared enemies and grovelling to them will never placate them, it will simply encourage them.

Pacifism is a loverly concept, but true pacifists like the Quakers or the Amish can only exist within tolerant societies, where their bizarre attitudes are protected by a the host community, who enforce the law with guns.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 18 January 2015 12:43:12 PM
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Gawd you speak a lot of crap.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 18 January 2015 1:12:17 PM
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Another highly detailed and well reasoned argument from Craig Minns.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 18 January 2015 4:51:46 PM
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I work with the material available, LEGO.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 18 January 2015 5:15:21 PM
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Is Mise,
Plenty of AK47 v's watermelon videos on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ak47+watermelon
http://youtu.be/nI3uVzdkL1I

I told you guys this thing stunk, but you had to make fun of me.

How about Rothschilds Purchased Charlie Hebdo in December...

http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2015/01/24/zionist-hand-revealed-rothschild-family-had-purchased-charlie-hebdo-in-december-2014-video/

This forum is supposed to be for intelligent people but I see little difference to anywhere else. Bigots, Racists and such.

I actually find that when it comes to the ways of the world most of you guys are so indoctrinated with the 'stuff like that doesn't happen' and your 'close-minded thinking' attitudes that you are mostly all actually far less intelligent than you think you are.

One day you might find yourself thinking... We should've listened.
But fine go ahead.. Your ignorance only creates a worse world for your children and grandchildren.
Worst part is mine will have to pay for your ignorance and stupidity as well.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 26 January 2015 2:59:31 PM
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