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The Forum > Article Comments > A failure of moral leadership > Comments

A failure of moral leadership : Comments

By Neil Francis, published 28/11/2014

Victoria's political leaders look the other way on voluntary euthanasia law reform leading up to Saturday's vote.

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I tend to disagree, with the real failure being to improve general well-being; so these extreme measures, or officially sanctioned murder, are just not needed, nor on the horizon!
And that's possible, if we change the focus on quantity, and instead focus on quality/preventive medicine.
Every day we discover something new which adds to the quality of a natural life, with something as simple as abalone blood, being touted as possible prevention for the herpes virus?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 28 November 2014 10:30:14 AM
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I have periods of a week or more, where the pain is pretty unrelenting. Getting to sleep can be a major problem.

Nothing in the way of pills helps at all, & the injection of the only thing that really helps means I am not allowed to drive home. A bit of a catch 22 problem.

Sitting in a kitchen chair is usually good, & driving 2 of my cars is also good, but driving other cars, or riding as a passenger is really bad. It took a week for the pain to subside after 3 hours, [1.5 each way with a 2 hours stop in between], in my daughters new car.

Being a bit of a coward, I am not that good at handling pain. I think I am lined up for a violent death somewhat before really necessary, when I near the point where I will not be able to do it for myself. I do wonder about which option would be less traumatic for the family. I won't be shooting myself in that kitchen chair for example.

For me the availability of assisted euthanasia would be a godsend.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 28 November 2014 11:25:32 AM
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People like Rhosty need to spend some time looking after a terminally loved one before they voice any such opinions on the matter.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 28 November 2014 12:57:27 PM
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HASBEEN...

Mate, I had no idea that you were afflicted by this unbearable pain ? Is it age related or a result of trauma(s) ? None of my bloody business for sure ? This euthanasia debate really troubles me ? Particularly when I witness 'qualified medical practitioners' spend all their time attempting to find better, more covert methodologies, in order to enable people to more effectively kill themselves.

Lets extend euthanasia 'benefits' to those with chronic depression ? Or youths who feel absolutely bereft of ever finding employment after several years on unemployment welfare. What about 'State Sanctioned Euthanasia' for old people ? Those unable to care for themselves, relying on very expensive 'high end' care ? A Court could be convened, in order to issue a Writ allowing the State to effectively put the elderly person to sleep ?

I suppose if an individual is deemed terminal, really terminal and the Medico's have abandoned all hope for any sort of recovery, well I'm still not entirely comfortable with it, despite the many academic arguments to the contrary ? Interestingly, when a medical Doctor first qualifies, apart from the normal Hippocratic oath, there's another tenet they must observe in their professional activity ?

'...First, do no harm...' ?

Surely, with the vast suite of analgesia they have available, they can render a person pain free, even in the worst case of advanced terminal cancer ?
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 28 November 2014 2:11:25 PM
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Dear Rhrosty,

You used the term "officially sanctioned murder", but first, murder, at least in the biblical sense from which these Western ideas and laws are derived, only refers to the killing against one's will; and second, failing to forbid/punish-for some act does not amount to sanctioning it.

The famous injunction in the ten commandments, is "thou shalt not murder": "Lo Tirtsach" in the original Hebrew, using the root-verb R.TS.CH. Other killings, either by accident, in war, or by a court-of-law, use the root-verb H.R.G., but most interestingly is that both assisted suicides (the second having been faked and never actually occured, but that's beside), described in Judges 9:54, and 2-Samuel 1:9-10, use the word "deathen" instead, which is lost in the English translation:

1. "and he quickly called the youth, the carrier of his gear, and told him: unsheath your sword and deathen me, lest others say "a woman killed him"".
2. "and he told me, please stand over me and deathen me, for though I had the stroke yet my spirit remains in me, so I stood over him and deathened him..."

There is nothing immoral about helping another to commit suicide. Yes, even [unassisted] suicide is sinful on different (and less severe) grounds, but in this case the sin is of the person being helped to die rather of the one helping them.

Sin (in which you may not believe) or otherwise, moral or otherwise, it is not government's role to promote morality or sainthood: the only legitimate role of government is to protect and keep the peace of those who willingly want its protection.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 28 November 2014 6:04:06 PM
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It's why they chucked me out of the navy o sung wu, a back injury in a bit of a crash means a couple of discs go out easily, pinching nerves, producing sciatic & other pain. Not really fixable back then, & probably still not.

They told me I would be a cripple at 40. I beat them by 30 years, & it is not all that bad most of the time really. I have one of those back swing machines. Hanging upside down, & doing sit ups always used to cure it for long periods, as it strengthened the right muscles, & opened the discs. Now that inflames the clapped out old knees. It is kind of funny, if you keep your sense of humour. You can at least decide what is going to hurt.

Importantly, the ergonomics of my Triumph TR7 mean I can drive it a thousand kilometres without a problem, & walk a little the next day. I can even drive the Honda S2000 4 or 5 hundred kilometres too, although more than that in it tends to inflame the carpal tunnel syndrome.

Not complaining mate. I've worked this body pretty hard, & it's pretty worn out. It's been a hell of a ride, & I wouldn't change a thing, but I would just like the option of getting out of it, if it becomes too hard to handle.

I know my kids would help if I asked, but I don't want to stuff their lives by having them break the law.

I'd prefer go out quietly, rather than drive one of my cars off a cliff or into a tree, but the do-gooder laws may force that upon me
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 28 November 2014 6:20:24 PM
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Throaty it is people like yourself and the religious right around the world who one hopes will die spewing up faeces from their mouths, let's hope you all enjoy it.
Posted by Ojnab, Friday, 28 November 2014 7:58:28 PM
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HASBEEN...

You have indeed been through the wringer and then some ! Geezz mate, irrespective of how bad it gets count to ten, twenty, a thousand even ! I've got similar problems, but from quite different causations. Once you're gone, there's no TR7 nor Honda ? Who'd care for that beautiful old stallion of yours ?

Tell me to mind my own flamin' business HASBEEN. I'll share with you a little fact on suicide I learnt in the coppers - people who take their own life, it's those who remain thereafter who are the victims ?

This year, 2014 has been a bastard of a year for me ? My dear 'first wife', took her own life on March 11, about 0600hrs, of this year. Despite attending police, the Qld Coroner, I found out very few of the specific particulars touching on her suicide. Words like chronic pain, loneliness, a sense of abandonment were chief amongst the complex reasons for her actions ? I'm still tearing myself apart believing our divorce was a major contributory factor ? Though I remarried, she didn't ? Look I'll not continue on any further with this, as it still hurts like hell mate, it really does.

Anybody contemplating ending their own life, think of the real victims - those who you leave behind, with all those myriad of unanswered questions.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 28 November 2014 8:58:04 PM
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That would be hard to take old mate, but you can't blame yourself for others actions. You may worry you had some part of the cause, but it probably had nothing to do with you.

I'm no where near pulling the pin. As I said, my troubles are not great, & I have a great deal of enjoyment in my life. I expect to have many good years yet. I would just like to know that if/when it does get really bad, I have a way out that does not cause any extra difficulty to me, or my family.

That drive with my daughter that screwed my back for a few days was actually to a surprise the kids had arranged for me.

It was 20 laps of Lakeside race track in an aging open wheeler race car. How good is that? I last drove round Lakeside in 1968 in the BT23 Formula 1 Brabham Repco.

It is not something I would ever have organised for myself, but that the kids had organised it for me was really terrific.

Thankfully I felt no need to break any lap records, so I did not bend the car. I had forgotten how much stress the centrifugal force achieved by an open wheeler puts on the body, which may have upset the back a bit too.

Actually trundling around quite carefully I was trying to remember what it was like to set lap records in a similar thing. It is so long ago, it is hard to relate to it now, it is in fact hard to believe I ever did it.

How fresh are your memories? Or is it for you too, like you are looking into someone else's life.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 28 November 2014 10:06:06 PM
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Has, I've had my back broken in five places, followed by multiple major spinal surgery.
So I hear and empathize with everything you're are saying.
Not so long ago we discovered some marine sourced narcotics, that are said to be a thousand times more efficacious then morphine, without the usual side affects, namely premature death!
I don't know what the problem is, aside from the fact they're said to be highly addictive?
Simply put, hardly a problem for the terminally ill, or the older folk who can live with permanent addiction, but not endless 24/7 chronic pain!
There is a relatively new procedure you might try, given some of the symptoms you describe, could be coming from a collapsed vertebrae, [not uncommon in older folk; and as indicated by some rides/positions being less painful than others?
And there's nothing worse for a professional driver, than the passenger seat and or passenger side brakes that just don't work, even when you floorboard them!
And hardly conducive to relieving back pain?
And perhaps relatively easily fixed and no worse than a lumber puncture, where some cement is pumped into the collapsed vertebrae, and when the thing is pumped back up; the cement hardened, and vertebrae, [usually at the sacral/lumber junction,] at its proper load carrying angle, far less stress on the entire back; and more or less permanent relief in minutes.
Other than that and again in a day clinic, you could try pawpaw injections, which are claimed to dissolve some of the crumbs of hardened disc material trapped in the nerve exits, which cause huge referred pain, down the sciatic pathway.
Incidentally, the inverse therapy works better if you do calorie consuming crunches, while hanging upside down; the only contraindication, being high blood pressure!
Work into it over three or four months.
Check it out, even if nothing is gained, you'll be no worse off.
And don't be put off by what other people believe, even your professionally qualified kids!
It's your body and you know best what works for you!
Cheers, Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 29 November 2014 10:36:45 AM
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Been there done that Dave!
As long as the patient is comfortable, and there remains some quality of life, there's no reason to prematurely end it!
Yes caring for someone 24/7 is a slog, but particularly if you can damage yourself by being forced to pick them up when they fall and need to be placed in the coma position!
Even so, and knowing what I know now, I'd do it all again than see someone I cared for, put down like a dog.
And in too many cases, wanting out because they were old, lonely and unwanted; or just felt useless/a burden.
Look, before rushing to premature judgement, suggest you get and view as a DVD, Still life, if only to understand all the reasons we cannot allow this to become par for the course.
Even as we turn a blind eye to it in the death rooms of hospitals, as sick patients require more and more morphine to quell the pain!
Yes I understand that very ill people can sometimes suffer projectile vomiting.
Happened to me, and when home alone.
Not pretty, but I dragged myself around got over the problem and got well, thanks to my knowledge. Only to be felled by a heatwave and multiple PE's!
And survived them and the unrelenting unending unbearable pain, thanks to untiring professional care!
And when I say untiring, I don't mean that nurses don't get tired, but all to often leave their work stations trembling with extreme fatigue.
You have a nice day now, Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 29 November 2014 11:13:57 AM
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It never ceases to amaze me how many people do not like VE but never mention the word war, obviously killing is ok with the latter but someone like myself wishing to have my life ended will not condone what I want, that is what I want not what you want, so get out of my life.
Posted by Ojnab, Saturday, 29 November 2014 2:33:25 PM
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Hi there HASBEEN...

My friend, I have no illusions as to who should shoulder the Lion's share of the blame, apropos my ex Wife's death...mea culpa. Still my accounting for all her hurt, loneliness and sense of abandonment , is down to moi ! And I'm receiving my just punishment here and now !

Yes Mate, concentrate on establishing the correct line into those tricky corners, whether a 'turn in' or 'apex', expert braking technique is vital, you'd know all about that ol' man ? All important decisions that need to be made, in split seconds. All helps to redirect you thoughts and mind, away for the levels of your pain HASBEEN ?

I've never raced in my life, but I did the NSWPOL pursuit course in the 1975/76 Falcon 5.8 V8's, and it was great. But, though being deemed competent, I wasn't much of a high-speed driver though ! I tend to 'moozy' along at more of a steady pace, rather than being a quickie. To each his own I suppose. Stay well old mate !

Hi there RHROSTY...

Gezz, sounds like you've had a bad time of it also with your back ? I sincerely trust you have your pain levels under some semblance of adequate control ? There's nothing like unrelenting chronic pain to deter one's thinking and concentration ?

Also I noticed you spoke quite derisively about Morphine Sulphate in all it's forms ? I must confess I've been on the stuff twice daily now, with the same dose for about eight years now; specifically -> -> am 10 mls. of Ordine 5 & Kapanol 50mgs. And exactly the same dosage of both meds in the pm ? Other than being highly dependent, I've not noticed any other side effects, other than a little afternoon lassitude ? Still I'm 75 years of age, so it's to be expected I guess ? I noticed you mentioned some quite bad side-effects ? Would you care to share them with me please ?

Many thanks RHROSTY.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 29 November 2014 2:37:10 PM
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ojnab

It's one of those weird paradoxes that, despite some exceptions, those who are all for war and military solutions to conflicts (and often the death penalty) also tend to be all against euthanasia, rational suicide and abortion.

The fundamental difference seems to be that the former grants power over life and death to those who control society. The latter grants power over life and death to individuals. To these people, it's assumed that those in power can always make the right choices about who lives and who dies, but individuals are inherently clueless and can never be trusted to make the right choices, especially about ending their own lives on their own terms.

So is it all about the right to life and/or quality of life? Or is it all about good old fashioned authoritarian control?

Rhrosty et al

Ask yourselves which gender is it that comprises the overwhelming majority of those nurses and carers who have to slog it out 24/7, making the final agonising weeks/months/years of a person's life 'comfortable'?

While it's mostly a small minority group of wealthy male, middle-aged leaders who dictate our moral code on life and death (despite opinion polls showing overwhelming mass majority support for euthanasia and abortion), it's low-paid women who end up shouldering the hard-slog burden of 'caring'.
Posted by Killarney, Saturday, 29 November 2014 9:53:19 PM
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Switzerland has an excellent policy, allowing assisted-suicide for whatever reason and by any assistant(s) (not necessarily doctors), so long as the assistant(s) are not selfishly motivated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Switzerland

A legal question:

Is it currently an offence in Australia to knowingly assist someone to leave for Switzerland for this purpose? For example by the travel-agent issuing the ticket, the driver who takes the person to the airport, perhaps even the airline itself and/or its employees who are aware of the purpose of the trip?

(and what about the same, but when a healthy person decides to permanently migrate to Switzerland, so that whenever their time is near they could have this facility?)
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 29 November 2014 11:09:49 PM
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Unfortunately Rhosty, some forms of terminal cancer and other terminal illnesses, involve not only intense pain but also constant nausea, vomiting, haemorhaging, breathlessness, and incontinence of urine and faeces......all of which can be so bad as to not be relieved by any medicine we currently have on hand.

As good as our palliative care teams are in this country, even the most experienced of these professionals can tell you which of these fatal diseases can't have their symptoms controlled, and wish they could legally use euthanasia for.

Yes, you can use strong anaesthetic drugs to knock them out, but is that 'living' ?

Suicide and voluntary euthanasia are completely separate issues.
Someone who kills themselves alone commits suicide and causes horrible angst for their relatives.
If voluntary euthanasia was legal, the sick person doesn't die alone, and the relatives have time to say goodbye etc.
Not the same thing at all...
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 30 November 2014 12:45:07 AM
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O Sung, Suse, eternally hostile, always extremely unreasonable, man hating, invariably judgmental Killarney; as a soldier, my only motive was saving/protecting lives/liberty!
As a medic my motive was saving lives, as a paramedic, my motivation was saving lives.
It is part of my nature/DNA.

Yes, most but not all the carers are women, many of who cast very admiring glaces, when they saw me at mum's bedside during those rare occasions she needed to be hospitalized, and they saw it was a mere male running the usual laundry service.

I have nothing but undying admiration for nurses, who almost invariably, give well beyond normal caring duty!
Simply put, there aren't enough superlatives to adequately describe my unending admiration.

If anyone cares to read my previous posts, they'll discover the problems I have with morphine; which as pain relief, pales into insignificance beside the heroin it's made from.

One well reported case saw an elderly Scot, well into her sixties and suffering unbearable unending pain, was given legally sanctioned heroin.
Instead of the few months predicted, she lived for five more years; out of hospital and doing what gave her quality of life; which by the way, included playing golf again.

And if I had my druthers, medicinal marijuana, would also be part of the suite of pain relief.

Morphine, if adequately administered to control pain and suffering, will eventually result in an induced coma and eventual peaceful death.
Controlled doses, will and does relieve chronic pain, without harming the cognitive abilities.
Heroin even more so.

However, we just don't need to keep someone, whose quality of life is Shiite, alive with this or that medicine, when all that need be done, is to make them comfortable as is possible.
With some clinicians withholding all other life support, including normal nutrition/hydration. (no food means no feces)
Y'all have a very nice day now. y'hear.
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 30 November 2014 9:35:27 AM
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Rhostry people who create wars are mentally unstable and tend to be looking after their own interests, Bush as an example, Abbott a so called Christian but enjoys the trappings of killing innocent people, isn't this euthanasia at its worst, but some person like yourself do not want me to have a say in how I end my life, I am just one person,not thousands who had no say in their ending when a bomb drops. The majority of people want VE so please allow them to do so as they wish, you make your own decisions for your end of life decisions.
Posted by Ojnab, Sunday, 30 November 2014 11:56:48 AM
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OJNAB...

You seem very defensive whenever anyone chooses to speak out against euthanasia, with a retort similar to, 'get out of my life' and such ? I was always under the impression that this Forum was a place for everyone to share their views, rather than 'attacking' any those who chose to disagree with you, a hitherto, very bad practice of mine, sadly ? I've been to a war, and despite being a retired copper of many years service, I positively DON'T agree with capital punishment ! That said, I still don't support the notion of State sanctioned euthanasia ? I've always believed it's the thin edge of the wedge, once euthanasia has been mandated by governments ?

Believe me my friend I've seen enough of death to last me ten life-times, it's for this reason I believe in that well used, if extremely 'corny' phrase 'while there's life there's hope...' ? So pardon me OJNAB, if I happen to disagree with you on this subject my friend.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 30 November 2014 2:26:19 PM
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I see where Ojnab is coming from.

All those who don't want legal voluntary euthanasia are very welcome to cling to life for as long as possible, under any circumstances.
Surely the rest of us should also have the choice not to?
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 1 December 2014 1:08:48 AM
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Suseonline, correct in your post, there seems to be this element from some writers that they also may have to request VE if it became law, this is not the case, it is your decision, and yours alone to have your say in your end of life choices, my life is my life and my death should be as I dictate to use VE if needed, not other people making that decision for me, which is how the law stands at present.
Posted by Ojnab, Monday, 1 December 2014 9:55:36 AM
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SUSEONLINE & OJNAB...

I have no issue with either of you concerning ownership of your life, no issue whatsoever. From a 'personal' perspective, I'm philosophically against it. It's the broader picture that worries me ? Not now, not in 2015 - 2030 even, but maybe in half a century on, I'm quite sure certain governments will see a clear corridor to advance an exciting economic/health policy in order to reduce the colossal health overheads which will only get bigger and bigger.

As an example might be, perhaps they may seek a mandate to introduce legislation somewhere along the lines of say...an individual over 75 years, who smoke, and are overweight, but need immediate (but expensive) life-saving heart surgery, but are automatically rejected, purely on economic grounds ? Or those who're confined to Mental Institutions, who appear prima facie untreatable, and have reached the age 60 ? A panel of Doctors may decide to humanely 'put them to sleep' in order more beds may be made available for younger, more treatable patients ?

Never happen you say, but are you sure ? I've seen some truly awful inhumanity done to other humans, all in the name of science, even perhaps an economic rationale ? I would cite that, of Chelmsford Private Hospital and their scientific but anachronistic 'sleep treatment' ! At best, some patients were made more unwell, and at worse, some committed suicide. With politicians, I'd put nothing past them, nothing at all !
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 1 December 2014 2:00:57 PM
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Yes o sung wu, I see the danger. I want the right to help me out of here, if I get beyond helping myself, but not someone with the right to turn me off.

I also see the danger of costs destroying the society.

If they gave me a new heart & lungs I could probably go on for quite a while, but uselessly. I would need new knees, & a new back to be of any use.

Then again my balance is going, I find cleaning the leaves from the gutters a bit hairy these days, & driving will probably start to slip soon. I guess I'd need a bit of head work on that, Oh & some new eyes & ears, to be back to a really productive life.

Most of us oldies can be kept going way past our usefulness, but at quite considerable cost to our youth.

We will definitely have to limit free access to life stretching medical procedures some time. I wonder if we are smart enough to do it nicely?
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 1 December 2014 2:34:43 PM
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Hi there HASBEEN...

I think I'm rapidly losing this argument, big time ? As I stated in my earlier thread, I believe everybody has the explicit ownership of their own lives. Nobody else. And I do accept (reluctantly) there's a case that a reasoned person, has the moral right to determine when their own life is beyond repair, beyond usefulness, or too unbearable to preserve even. It's just when you allow governments a power, hell knows what they'll do with that power ?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 1 December 2014 4:15:19 PM
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"With the right to turn me off " That would definately be wrong Hasbeen, it must be at my request to turn me off. I do feel we are fast approaching where we old people are a burden on Governments and taxpayers, old people taking up bed space at hospitals, old people past 75 years, Doctors look at you and are probably thinking what sort of treatment to keep these old people going, is it worth the expense, remember at 80 years we are told we have had a good innings, now isn't it time for you to jump off the planet, as you mention perhaps the time will come when we will become a disposable commodity, time to go, no more treatment for you, for goodness sake you are past when you should be dead, I sometimes have that feeling now, a burden on society.
Posted by Ojnab, Monday, 1 December 2014 4:19:00 PM
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Oh come on guys!
There is a whole aged care industry out there that need the oldies alive to keep them in a job!
I think that as long as someone is able to continue to effectively communicate with others, has a good sense of humour, and has any pain they have controlled, then they should continue to live on happily.

It is the poor severely demented elderly I feel most sorry for, and to be honest, I wouldn't say no if any euthanasia laws were a little less strict for them.
First they lose their memories, then their minds, and finally their bodies.

Be thankful you are all bright enough to communicate with others on sites like these....
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 1 December 2014 8:42:10 PM
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