A very good article, once again demonstrating the imperative of freedom of speech. We need to know what these enemies of civilisation are thinking. The proposal that ISIL is 'un-Islamic' is ridiculous when examining the writings in the Koran and Hadith's, and a cursory glance at history.

Arguments based on cultural relativism vis a vis Islam, Judaism and Christianity is particularly lazy thinking on the part of the Islamism apologists. Whilst I get 'fed up' with interviewers like Alberici, Bolt and others interrupting the person they are interviewing (how Emma would cringe at my lumping Andrew and her together) I think that her persistence was valuable in that it gave a very clear view of Wassims' position.

Ban speech which incites violence by all means, but let ALL other speech be freely aired, even that of the 'useful idiots'

There is a fair bit of latter day revisionism here John, including your take on the "interview"!
Looking back, it was not the interviewer talking over anyone, but the interviewed, who simply motor mouthed his way through the entire interview, without once adequately addressing as much as one question!
Just who is the true apologist here?
Had it been down to me, he would have lasted around thirty seconds, before the kill button was used.
There's something intensely revealing about people, who's jaws still flap, but from which no sounds emanate.
For mine, this extreme embarrassment to humanity, should not ever be accorded a public platform to preach his hate messages from.
Yes, Islam was born of conflict, so also Christianity, and Judaism!
The Jews were persecuted by the Romans, with who they waged a guerrilla war.
Esoteric Christians were little better than heretical Jews, and were treated that way, until Christians eventually conquered Rome; in a largely bloodless coup!
And then also went on to murder and kill in God's name!
Jewish philosophy is founded on largely disproved myth (exodus from Egypt, and a promised land) and tablets of stone carved out of rock, for a people who could largely neither read nor write; by an all knowing all seeing God!
The Qoran is one of the most revised books, in any religion, only out revised by the Bible, which now bears little if any resemblance, to the oldest known version; and is, almost indisputably, born of repeated after the event, plagiarism, and extreme embellishment; to make the story fit the so called Messianic prophecy!
For mine, the only way out, is to listen to your own heart, and be guided almost exclusively, by your own moral compass, rather than the foaming mouth of a patent nut job; regardless of what perversion he or she purports to represent!
Pagans dancing naked in the summer sun, their jelly wobble bits wobbling, would at least be entertaining, and harm nobody!
Rhrosty.

Yes certainly Islamist are in great denial about their prophet just like secularist are in denial about their murderous past and present.

The author, an apologist for materialistic humanism, should indeed be thankful to Islam for giving him a platform to promote his secular anti-religious ideas.

The majority of Muslims do not want Jihad.
The majority of Muslims want to live in peace with their neighbours.
The majority of Muslims want to have a life.

The majority of Muslims benefit from the other, peaceful aspects of Islam, so as they don't want to lose them altogether, they diplomatically bend the words of the Koran, in hope that nobody notices... until the author's elephant enters the china shop to remind them that they don't follow the true Islam...

The end result is that the author supports Wassim Doureihi and his murderous friends against the average moderate Muslim and their leaders like Haset Sali. Perhaps his article will even manage to convince a few Muslim youths to choose the "pure" Islam and join terrorist organisations, perhaps even it will take Indonesia by storm, "reminding" them that their peaceful interpretation of Islam is against the Hadith (which may well be so, so what) and that they must do something about it.

"Aiding and abetting terror" comes to mind.

Dear Runner,

<<Yes certainly Islamist are in great denial about their prophet>>

My personal opinion is that their prophet, the man Muhammad, had nothing to do with the Koran as we know it, that being illiterate he was horribly deceived and manipulated by his evil "disciples" who wrote whatever they liked behind his back, faking both his teachings and his history.

Never mind my personal opinion, suppose they are indeed in great denial, then they must have very good reasons do be in that denial - why then force them out of it?

Yuystu.
Yes and hear hear!
Rhrosty.

"We should not blame people for following their religion," says John Perkins.

Who else should we blame?

Dear David,

<<Who else should we blame?>>

The ones who sell their political agendas as "religion".

What is of course needed is a project to deconstruct the Koran (the so-called "holy" book of Islam-ism) or subject it to the same kind of comprehensive critical scholarship that has been applied to the Bible (the so-called "holy" book of Christian-ism)over the past 100 years, especially in recent decades.
The website Deconstructing Koranology is a good place to start

"We should instead concentrate on demythologising Islam and all religions."

Yes, indeed, however we should also set some priorities, the demented followers of Islam are currently the main threat to liberal democracy.
Any argument with an Islamic propagandist over the meaning of verses in the Quran is a waste of time, except perhaps for theologians. Majority Muslim societies are misogynistic, violent, oppressive and authoritarian, who needs to read the Quran?
The truth that Muslim apologists will never admit when they're trying to schmooze the naive and ignorant Kuffars is that ISIS are in fact imitating their prophet's behaviour-they're true Muslims.

This author wrote a good article that not only includes Islam as having some followers who take their ancient religious book too seriously, but other religions as well.

"Unless and until we can start to consider the benefits of reason, rationality, and secularism, especially in relation to Islam, we will continue in a downward spiral of disharmony and conflict that will ultimately threaten civilisation itself."

One only needs to read about the 10 plagues of Egypt in the Bible that a Christian God violently used against the Egyptions for daring to upset god's 'chosen people' , to realise that all religions are similar.
Wasn't it this same God that supposedly drowned the whole human civilization on earth except for one boat load of humans and animals?
I doubt the Koran could beat that death toll?

We need to weed out the radical violent offenders of any race, culture or creed (or no creed at all) and ensure they don't secure any more followers of these crazy thoughts and violence.
I agree with the author that we may not be able to do that if this government drives them underground with the new laws.

Daffy,
The problem is that Islam holds the Koran to be incontrovertible, it can't be de-constructed because it's the literal word of god and Mohammed is his prophet, nothing can contradict the Koran, not even the Hadith.
The New Testament on the other hand is open to interpretation because it's made up of allegories, parables and anecdotes, Jesus it seems wanted people to think for themselves whereas Mohammed demanded total submission to Allah on pain of death

Dear Jay,

<<Islam holds the Koran to be incontrovertible>>

Yes, if Islam were a person, but in reality there is no entity named "Islam": in reality there are just that many people who consider themselves Muslims - and most of these people turn the blind eye on the aspects of the Koran which they do not like. Some for example turn the blind eye on the prohibition on alcohol, some ignore the Fajr (pre-dawn) prayer, preferring to stay in bed (2/3 of Muslims pray each day, but only 48% say all five prayers), some ignore the injunction to travel to Mecca on Hajj and MOST ignore that Jihad thing.

You may complain that this is inconsistent, irrational or illogical, but how many people do you know - theists, atheists, whatever, who are always rational and logical? They are extremely rare. I know none who completely answers that description, but I know someone who comes close - and as a result he is heavily depressed!

Nothing can contradict the Koran - according to the Koran's own cyclical injunction, same for the bible (Deuteronomy 12:32), but such blind observance to cyclical commands is only attributed to Asimov's "I, the robot", not to real people.

Of course there are those born-terrorists who won't listen to anything because they like chopping heads: for them the Koran is but an excuse. However, the vast majority of people and of Muslims too, don't like chopping heads and will be relieved to find the theological support for this humane quality of theirs.

It is imperative on us to help them if we can. If we can prove that they can continue to love and follow Muhammad without having to follow the Koran, then we can do them a great favour - and ourselves too!

Yuyutsu,
Well if your information is correct then 52% of Muslims are not really Muslim, as the Koran says Allah has sealed their minds to the truth

2.26 Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,
2.27
Who break the covenant of Allah after contracting it and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined and cause corruption on earth. It is those who are the losers.

'I doubt the Koran could beat that death toll?'

no Susie just Mao, Stalin and other secularist. And don't forget the abortionist who specialise in baby killing. I suggest you think before displaying your Chritophobic nature.

Thank you John, for a most incisive article.

I can't believe that ISIS and Hizb-ut-Tahrir represent Islam, that the butchery of thousands, perhaps millions eventually, of people like me, kafirs, un-believers, people who don't believe even in a Heaven or an afterlife, let alone some bloke called Allah or even some other bloke called Muhammad,is on the agenda of most Muslims.

I'm sure that most Muslims have flicked trough the Koran and noticed the passages where "I" obviously refers to Muhammad himself, and therefore that the Koran can't have been the literal, and totally unchangeable, word of Allah, passed down unchanged to Muhammad.

And surely most Muslims in Australia laugh at some clown who goes on about mannequins, or some other clown who talks about women as 'uncovered meat'.

I have advice for the 'mannequin' bloke - save yourself the trouble of blowing yourself up to gain access to your 72 virgins, I know a shop .......

Seriously, if men have problems controlling themselves, then THEY should take steps to control themselves, don't put it all on women. If you have the problem, you do something about it. Camomile tea helps.

Joe

Yuyutsu

do the majority of Muslims hate the Jews? You make some very good points and I think generally most people of all faith (including the secular faith) want to live peacefully. Unfortunately most Muslims were born into it rather than choosing that path. That means the whole of their lively hood/ family acceptance etc is at stake and often lives if choosing to leave. I have met a number of lovely muslim people but not ones who adhere to the teachings of the Koran's later writings or those who folow the example of Mohammed.

Contra Suseonline’s comment, Islam doesn’t just have “some” followers who “take their religious book too seriously”, it has NO followers who take their “prophet’s” books less than in toto. Those that don’t fully accept its call (really don’t – not merely exercise taqiyya to fool the punters) are not followers. Brushing aside the tactical sugar coating, Mohammed’s seventh century Mein Kampf makes quite clear that faithful adherence to the central message of conquest and subjugation is a defining requirement of a Moslem. Islamic State is an Islamic call to arms made crystal clear as John Perkins and countless other authors have amply demonstrated. That’s why Moslems physically able to fight are flocking in their tens of thousands to join its murder rampage, contemptuously spitting in the faces of the nations that have foolishly given them refuge.

The Moslem jihad can be blunted by air power and by draconic harassment in their enclaves in the West, but will not be decisively defeated while they can skulk among decent human beings. Only a rededication to the secular values of the Age of Reason and human liberty, and a relentless crusade against the theocracy of Islam (or any other for that matter), can make this cult history. A start in Australia would be insistence that a condition of living here is to pledge to promote the right of every citizen to adopt, reject, abandon, follow, peddle, praise, deride, obey, ignore, defy at will any religious authority or symbol or ruling. Penalty for restricting that right: expulsion and permanent exile.

This essay provides a capsule summary of the essentially ungovernable nature of todays human created world, and the unique combination of factors that allowed the up-until-now relatively successful European democracies to flourish or prosper.

And why world-wide terrorism is the new normal, which nobody has a clue as to how to stop (the inexorable pattern-patterning)

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/116/pankaj-mishra.html

To my mind, of all the magazines available at your local newsagent, or at least some of them, Adbusters gives the most accurate (unfortunately bleak) in your face assessment of the state of the world, and where we are very rapidly heading - while, borrowing from Neil Postman Amusing Ourselves To Death with titty-tainment

Yuyutsu,

Why do you think that Muhammad was illiterate?

Is Mise wrote:

>>Why do you think that Muhammad was illiterate?>>

A more pertinent question.

Was there ever such a person?

Did Muhammad actually exist?

I used to think Muhammad's existence was well established. Turns out that's not the case. There is no extra-koranic contemporaneous evidence for Muhammad. The first biographies appear over a 100 years after his supposed death. The earliest complete copies of the koran also date long after he supposedly died.

I don't know the answer but I found the argument for his non-existence presented in "The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History" edited by Karl-Heinz Ohlig convincing.

See:

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Origins-Islam-Research-History/dp/1591026342/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413547889&sr=1-2&keywords=karl+heinz+ohlig

My best guess is that arguing about Muhammad is like arguing about Bugs Bunny. Both are fictitious characters.

You all have to realise that our intelligence agencies use extreme Islam to justify the removal of our rights and bring in more oppressive laws. They financed groups like isil in Syria to fight Assad. as if the usa could not forsee the tide of Isis in Iraq and not have the resources to quash them in the initial stages?

The long term plan is to take Syria and Iran and run energy pipelines to Europe tthrough Syria end putins monopoly supply to Europe. The usa is leaving Saudi Arabia out because their energy stocks are on the wane.

Why are they not removing extreme Islamic groups from Australia? They want them here so more oppressive laws can contain us . These new laws actually protect our police and intelligence bodies if they conduct illegal activity. We individuals or our media cannot report on their activities or groups in which they are associated.

Welcome to police state Australia.

John Perkins article is absolutely spot on and reveals two aspects of the debate about Islam which he did not elaborate on.

The first is, that the mullahs in the west are feeling very uncomfortable defending their own scriptures. The mullahs know that the Koran and the Hadiths instructs Muslim to kill non believers and take over the world, but they can hardly tell the truth to the people of the host country that they intend to take over. Not while they are only 2.2% of the population. They need to keep a lid on their own murderous intentions until their numbers increase significantly and they can indulge in terrorism with more or less impunity.

The second is, that Alberici's leftist class like are starting to figure out hat they are on the wrong side of history. It is alright reflexively defending minorities against your own hated people and culture as a symbol of caste identity. But sooner or later, the educated caste has to stop acting reflexively and examine the issues dispassionately. One suspects that too many educated elites are beginning to figure out themselves that Islam is extremely dangerous. So the leaders of the educated caste is in the same position as the mullahs, they are defending the indefensible and losing credibility with their own disciples because it.

If the Lateline program is anything to go by, the "social progressive" caste may have reached the tipping point as far as Islam is concerned. The psychological motivation of being a trendy lefty is the compulsive need to think that you are morally and intellectually better than the bourgeoisie and the bogans. So simply defending everything the bourgeoisie and the bogans oppose is their default position.

But the trendies are beginning to realise that they have dropped the ball on Islam. It was bad enough defending a faith who's values and attitudes are diametrically opposed to everything that a social progressive is supposed to believe in. But what is a lot worse, is that in any debate with the accursed bogans, the bogans are all over them like a rash.

Quote: the Koran and the Hadiths instructs Muslim to kill non believers and take over the world.

Actually Islam is an equal opportunity killer. Yes, there are passages that focus on attacking, killing and conquering those damn infidels, but there are many others that are very vague and can perfectly justify Muslims killing each other. Take Quran 9:111 - now there is a verse for ISIS and friends - it says that Muslims were put on earth to kill and be killed (not exactly the Sermon on the Mount). In fact, Mohammad and his merry men did kill and were killed. Most people have no idea of the slaughter inflicted on Muslims and Infidels alike by the early Muslims, companions of the prophet. They killed each other by the 10s of thousands. Mohammad even attacked a mosque full of women and children,"because of unbelief" (so much for "no compulsion"! )

There is no peaceful Islam or peaceful Muslim. All Muslims accept the hateful verses in the Quran and/or the evil deeds of their prophet. What we are seeing today is a return to the pure, brutal Islam of Mohammed. A Muslim may be a nice person but how can we trust someone who is devoted to a god that delights in barbaric torture for the silliest of reasons or considers a man who attacked, looted, tortured, raped and enslaved men women and children to be a noble example?

The problem is not Wassim Doureihi. It is our leaders that blindly accept the "Islam is a religion of peace" mentality and bring millions of Muslims to live among us. Has anybody ever seen a PM or president in the West stand up and say "Letting these people come and live amongst us was a terrible idea and will cause problems"? We all will pay for their stupidity and blindness. It will get worse and maybe never better. Blood will flow, but that's OK for our elites because it means more power for them.

I would like to post a link about ISIS and Muslims.
http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/culture/exclusive-qa-with-former-islamic-state-member_26696

Notice the use of the Quran and hadith. Notice the lack of logic and reason. Notice the brutal tortures and pain inflicted.

Does the nice, peaceful Muslim ever ask how the perfect Quran can be used for these things, or why violence comes so easily to Muslims?

Oops... The quran (5:101-102) tells Muslims not to ask questions so not to lose faith. One good thing about Islam is that blind faith, plus simple rituals and routines, are a sure ticket to paradise. None of that silly "confess your sins" and "sin no more" from Christian theology.

Spot-on, LEGO & kactuz,

One of the pillars of Islam is that one must believe in an after-life. As an atheist, I've always found this incredibly self-serving, selfish and despicable amongst Christians - ergo amongst Muslims also: that one believes BECAUSE one believes he/she will go to Heaven and live forever.

Give me Schopenhauer any day: he says somewhere that if you could persuade a believer that there wasn't a Heaven, they would become atheist within twenty minutes. After all, what would be in it for them, in that case, to be believers ? What's the fecking point of all that bowing and praying and kissing the Divine @rse if you don't get to live forever ?

Ah, that's it ! Without dangling that carrot, how do authorities get anybody to believe in any sort of God at all, the backbone of so many backward societies ? So the bribe of eternal life has to be touted, to suck people into conformity and quiescence. To hell with the moral principles.

Quite brilliant, actually. Well, it's worked pretty well up until now :)

Joe

ARJAY: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers, and from our fathers' fathers.
FOXY: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
ARJAY: Yeah.
FOXY: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
ARJAY: Yeah. All right, FOXY. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?!
HALDUAL: The aqueduct?
ARJAY: What?
HALDUAL: The aqueduct.
ARJAY: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.
DAVID G: And the sanitation.
FOXY: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, ARJAY. Remember what the city used to be like?
ARJAY: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Americans have done.
PLANTAGENET: And the roads.
ARJAY: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--
YUYUTSU: Irrigation.
DAFFY DUCK: Medicine.
ARJAY: Huh? Heh? Huh...
SUSIEONLINE: Education.
EMPORER JULIAN: Ohh...
ARJAY: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.
HALDUAL: And the wine.
FOXY: Oh, yes. Yeah...
DAVID G: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, ARJAY, if the Americans left. Huh.
POIROT: Public baths.
CONSTANCE: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.
FOXY: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.
EMPORER JULIAN: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.
ARJAY: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Americans ever done for us?
DAVID G: Brought peace.
ARJAY: Oh. Peace? Shut up!

Yeah, LEGO, who said that us reactionaries and Islamophobes don't have a sense of humour ?

To counter it, perhaps some of the apologists could do one about Islam:

'What have the Muslims ever done for us ?'

Architecture (authoritarians LOVE architecture), copying out of ancient Greek manuscripts, transfer from India of a number system, transfer from Aramaic and Syriac etc. of an alphabet.

Ummm, ...... mixing of populations by the progressive mechanism of slavery over a thousand years ?

Ummm, ........ the oudh ?

Ummm, ........ give me time ! give me time !

No, that's it, I'm done.

Joe

Congratulations, Lego. Your comment above was very clever and it came as a surprise. I didn't think you had it in you!

Just one small point. Having me say near the end that the Yanks brought peace to the world is rather foolish. Anyone who knows me or anything at all about World History knows that Americans have brought nothing to the world except endless war and killing and misery.

And, eventually, the hideous scenario they created in Hiroshima and Nagasaki will be repeated all over the world including in the United States!

Live by the sword; die by the sword!

Lego, that skit and the "death comes to visit" are perhaps the two best moments of humour in human history....

What have the Romans ever done for us"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Death comes for a visit - the salmon mousse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzejK4-qZ2E

soon be time for all you white feminist to die your hair.
http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/10/17/religion-of-peace-says-they-will-make-it-legal-to-rape-white-women-when-they-take-over-europe/

Dear LEGO and Kactuz,

The source of "What have the Romans ever done for us" is in the Talmud (rather than youtube!):
http://cojs.org/cojswiki/index.php/Babylonian_Talmud_Shabbat_33b:_Rabbi_Simeon_bar_Yohai_and_the_Cave

No more Hiroshima's and Nagasaki's eh, David G?

How come it never occurs to you to say "No more Pearl Harbour's?

Thank you Joe and Kactuz.

Exactly LEGO!
We didn't start WW11, by invading either Hitler's Germany or Nipponese Japan; with both the aforementioned, having a history of huge, again completely overlooked by apologist Dave, atrocity!
Had we but had the testicular fortitude to invade Nazi Germany, in 1933, instead of endlessly pleading for peace in our time!
We could have prevented a much wider and infinitely more serious WW11!
And I dare say, both subsequent Italian and Japanese involvement; and in so doing; literally saved/spared tens of millions of lives; and indeed, never been pushed to actually use nuclear weapons, as the lessor of two monstrously inherent evils!
And Dave is quite revealing, in his, par for the course commentary, or should that read, hidden but real agenda, or whim and caprice, KILL/NUKE THEM ALL, apparent death (wish) list?
Rhrosty.

What the world needs now are a series of Pearl Harbors which gets rid of the 1,000+ military bases which the Peace-Loving Yanks have spread all over the World.

That might slow down their Imperial Ambitions and Killing Frenzy a bit!

Hi David,

'Killing Frenzy' ? Compared to ISIS ?

'Imperial Ambitions' ? Compared to ISIS' ?

The Yanks dropped two A-bombs, seventy years ago. You're calling for what ? A thousand Pearl Harbours ? ASAP ? Carried out by ISIS ?

Hmmmmm ....... what's wrong with this picture ?

Oops, I was about to make a crack about school-children and under-grads - I keep forgetting that you are of a mature age :)

Cheers,

Joe

One thing we can thank the US for is the Lee rifles, without which you would probably be using a Japanese typewriter.

One like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_typewriter#mediaviewer/File:JapaneseTtypewriter.jpg

Yuyu,

Thanks for the link to the talmud. I never had the will or reason to read the talmuds (either of them). Too much folk wisdom, much of which is silly or irrelevant, even if a few gems here and there, just like the hadith (which has some funny stories) -- the main difference is that the hadith are focused on one man while the talmud is much broader in scope.

Did you like the salmon mousse video? Doesn't that capture perfectly the upper class british snobbishnish?

What Australia needs is a few more US bases on Australian soil to defend our country, David G. Australian defence spending as a proportion of GDP is now LOWER than what we spend during the Great Depression. You want to play the moral superior who criticises your own people over everything? Do something constructive and criticise your own people over our miserable defence commitment.

Australia's main defence philosophy has been to fight to the last American.

Could you please tell me where this US Empire is? I remember half the map of the world being coloured red for the British Empire when I was a kid. But I just don't remember any bits coloured to denote the US Empire.

Oh, and most of those red bits on the map that have maintained their British inherited traditions like secular democracy and Common Law are now the most desirable countries to live in. How you can see nothing but negatives in your own culture, and think that every dysfunctional culture in the world is a victim of the secular democracies, is beyond me. But I suppose your philosophy does absolve you of any responsibility to think very hard.

Lego more us basis ? It would be a little more palatable if Bush and Obama had not trashed the US constitution.We now live in an oligarchy in which large corporations control our Govts.

Tony Abbott looks lik a goose with his shirt lifting comments.Russia has done everything in their power to avert a war with the USA. Who has the track record on aggression ? The USA wins by a mile.

Hey Arjay. If you hate American bases so much, why don't you go and live in a country which hates the USA and has no US bases?

Syria has no US bases. Lebanon has no US bases. Egypt has no US bases. Rwanda has no US bases. Nigeria has no US bases. Zimbabwe has no US bases. Take your pick and don't come back.