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The Forum > Article Comments > Facing the Palestinian faces > Comments

Facing the Palestinian faces : Comments

By Joseph Wakim, published 1/8/2014

This noose needs to be loosened if the Palestinian voices are to be heard. The deprivation of these basic human rights of a besieged people is a protracted war crime.

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The people are not hiding among terrorists: Just the very opposite!
If the extreme minority madness that is Hamas had not existed; Gaza would be a very different place today!
And indeed, patiently waiting for Arab Israelis, to outnumber Jews at the ballot box!
And only a decade or so away!
In the interim, the millions sent as foreign aid, could have been spent on schools, doctors and hospitals, and the general quality of life inside that tiny, hugely overpopulated enclave. And not sent back as missiles, mortars and and suicide bombers!
I mean, who in their right mind would conduct murderous military hostilities from such a place; or indeed, use as a base from which to fire rockets with explosive warheads!
Given some of those very warheads, could be still viable and deadly, wherever they then fall, after being intercepted by the so called iron dome!
And only insane extremists, could live with themselves, given these still viable armaments, could fall on schools, hospitals or playgrounds inside Gaza!
The very first casualty of war is the truth, and the second, the complete loss of the personal moral compass!
Then this article, seems to be a prime, propagandized, pernicious example, of that first and second casualty!
It's time to call a spade a spade, and for all Palestinians to hold Hamas entirely responsible, for all the continuing casualties inside Gaza!
It's Hamas that needs to look in all those now homeless hopeless faces, and consider what they and they alone have wrought, in their mad desire to eliminate Israel, and indeed, create enough international and or local sympathy, in order to get others to do this dirty blood-lust work for them!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 1 August 2014 10:54:03 AM
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Hi Joseph,

Ever since Gaza was invaded and occupied by the Moslem Brotherhood by proxy, Hamas, the Palestinians in Gaza have lost their freedom under occupation. They now suffer Stockholm Syndrome and are utterly lost.

Hamas has no objectives to support any socio-economic development or sovereignty for Palestinians. Their objective is soley to wipe out Israel and Gaza has become their base of operations. Much international aid from the US, the EU and the UN is mostly redirected to the operational needs of Hamas rather then benefit Gaza residents.

The wording associated with Israel’s assault is significant, the words “demilitarization” of Gaza tell you all you need to know. I suspect that regardless of what any outside nations declare, Israel will pursue this objective.

They know that every previous attempt has been thwarted by the UN in particular who have previously imposed cease fires before Israel could finish that task, which makes the UN culpable for repetitive Hamas military build ups and attacks on Israel.

If the UN again prevents Israel from stopping short of their main objective we will see more loss of life because of the UN and not Israel.

The US has clearly telegraphed their disengagement in the ME. Now it’s up to the ME to solve the ME’s problems, let them get on with it
Posted by spindoc, Friday, 1 August 2014 11:15:37 AM
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The author's juxtaposition of violence in the Middle East with cities in Australia is irresponsible.
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 1 August 2014 11:46:15 AM
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And this was a multicultural affairs commissioner, being paid by Oz taxpayers.

God help us in our stupidity.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 1 August 2014 12:22:16 PM
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Here is a face: St. sergeant Matan Gotlib was killed two days ago by a bomb that was placed in a tunnel under an UNWRA clinic: Palestinian children asked for help - and as an active boy-scout he always wanted to help everyone, so he went in with his unit to help - it was a trap, he and another two were killed, nine others were wounded.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 1 August 2014 12:44:47 PM
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It seems to me that the interview with Henry Siegman titled Gaza "A Slaughter of Innocents" on Democracy Now provides a necessary antidote to all of the sound-bite "certainties" that mis-inform all of those who pretend that the Palestinians have no human faces, or that they are the only villains in this dreadful situation.

Henry is eminently qualified, and well informed via first hand experience. Especially his informed comments on the deliberately murderous intentions and actions of the more extreme Zionists, both past and present. The present one's having a significantly powerful voice and influence in/on the Israeli Government
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 1 August 2014 2:01:51 PM
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If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel - Benjamin Netanyahu
Posted by G'dayBruce, Friday, 1 August 2014 3:08:04 PM
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If Hamas and other Arabs love their children as much as they hate the Jews peace would be overnight. Despicable that they use them as human shieldsw and indoctrinate such hatred into them.
Posted by runner, Friday, 1 August 2014 3:28:23 PM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

I understand your myopia, it has far more legitimacy than the likes of spindoc, runner, ans SPQR. Yours is driven by fears for your family while theirs is far more vile and base – an utter hatred of Muslims.

But please try and refrain from falsehoods.

You wrote;

“St. sergeant Matan Gotlib was killed two days ago by a bomb that was placed in a tunnel under an UNWRA clinic”

No it wasn't. From your own link;

“the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, the military unit that implements government policies in the Palestinian areas, later said that the clinic in Abu Daka, outside Khan Younis, was last registered as a sensitive location three years ago, “and it hasn’t been since.” The spokesperson said the site had not been registered then as belonging to UNRWA...”

Now I need to get this right, are you asking us to shed a tear for a specialist soldier of an invading army, highly trained in killing Palestinians, part of a brutal war machine that is decimating a mainly civilian population, whose prime minister sneeringly describes the corpses of children as “telegenic” and all the while 85% of Israelis support the slaughter?

You ask too much.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 1 August 2014 5:45:16 PM
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'I understand your myopia, it has far more legitimacy than the likes of spindoc, runner, ans SPQR. Yours is driven by fears for your family while theirs is far more vile and base – an utter hatred of Muslims. '

Your accusations are the vilest of the vilest Steele. Any deceit to cover your godless mantras. If I hated all muslims I would not send them money to educate their kids. Your brand of politics certainly supersedes any principle. You fit well with the likes of Hanson Young.
Posted by runner, Friday, 1 August 2014 5:57:19 PM
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Dear runner,

Whoa.

Tone it down, please.

Whose prejudices and dogmas are showing now?
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 August 2014 6:16:47 PM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

Well said!
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 August 2014 6:18:22 PM
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'Whose prejudices and dogmas are showing now? '

actually yours Foxy!
Posted by runner, Friday, 1 August 2014 6:23:26 PM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

How can we compare 40 dead Israeli soldiers
and one Israeli civilian to 1,700 Palestinian
dead four hundred of them children and over
8,000 injured? Who is the better equipped,
trained, armed with stronger weaponry to
achieve these sort of results?

The Israeli excuse was to destroy the tunnels
from Gaza to Israel. If the tunnels come up in
Israel - logically thinking one would destroy the
tunnel exits in Israel - not the entrances in
Gaza. Obviously someone in the government has a
different agenda. Why does on have to go all
the way into Gaza to destroy the tunnels, when
they are accessible on the Israeli side?

Makes no sense. The Israelis are now talking about
military occupation of Gaza - which means they intend
to steal the land from the Palestinians. Their past
history has demonstrated what they agenda has been
since 1947.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 August 2014 6:29:41 PM
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Dear runner,

Once again - your bias makes a mockery
of rational discourse in this place.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 August 2014 6:31:07 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Well said. Being an outsider, I think Gaza for its geographic position could only be stable and peaceful as a “Protectorate”: either of Israel or of the “Palestine mainland”, presently known as the West Bank. The Palestinians living in Gaza (with the exception of the militant extremists who indeed “deny Israel the right to exist”, whatever that means ) would prefer the second, and so would probably a majority of outsiders to the problem. Unfortunately, the second alternative is unviable because of the steadily spreading net of Israeli settlements.

The Israelis prefer the first alternative, because they do not trust the second alternative would give them enough security and guarantee living standards they have become used to, hence the settlements.
Posted by George, Friday, 1 August 2014 8:07:14 PM
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Well, foxy. The Israelis ARE worried about what's happening under the ground, but it ain't tunnels.

Under the Gaza coastline is, as recorded by a major British Gas survey, $1 trillion (yes, spelt with a ‘T’) worth of natural gas.

Now, poor old Israel spent decades rounding up Palestinians and herding them into the Gaza strip, only to find that it’s worth a trillion bucks! Darn!

On top of the indignity of the chosen people getting their country back after 2,000 years of biblical exile, only to find they picked the only part of the Middle East that DIDN’T have oil, this was too much!

And then, if that wasn’t enough, in April Hamas and Fatah formed a Unity Government, which meant that, instead of British Gas negotiating with Tel Aviv, they would have to start negotiating with Hamas and Fatah.

Gasp! What to do?

Well, thankfully. Three Israeli teenagers came to Israel’s rescue by graciously being abducted and murdered by … ahem … ‘Hamas’, so that Israel could avenge this triple-murder most foul by bombing the crap out of Gaza, and showing British Gas who really owns the Gaza strip.

Of course, a recording of the teenagers’ distress call to the police had heaps of dialogue that showed their kidnappers were Hebrew-speaking Israelis, but who cares?

And now, Israel’s dropping all kinds of hints that it will now be retaking direct control the Gaza strip because this whole ‘leaving Gaza’ thing hasn’t worked out.

Yeah, right.
Posted by Killarney, Friday, 1 August 2014 10:02:40 PM
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Thank God Hamas has real friends like Killarney, (birds of a feather!) Given they're rapidly losing all others.
An Egyptian brokered cease fire of three days lasted less than three hours!
With Hamas militants, exiting tunnels, with suicide vests exploding, and automatic weapons blazing. At least they finally found the courage to fight their declared enemy as men, rather than craven cowards cowering behind helpless women and children! A few more attacks like that and the problem of Hamas will solve itself!
If it was all about gas, there is a peace process and international law.
Which would effectively deny any Israeli access to someone else's gas.
Albeit, if its okay for Putin to purloin Ukraine's oil and gas, in the Crimea, and supported by all those posting here, who also support other terrorist organisations!
Then that's hardly surprising! What's good for the goose (Putin) is good for the gander (Israel)!
If it was about gas and a trillion with a T dollars Killarney, only the very worst kind of hate-filled, completely irrational, bloodthirsty murders, would put it at risk; not to mention the lives of their loved ones, in a vain attempt to somehow, foment enough unrest to bring a war to Israel.
Not only will Egypt, Turkey and Qatar no longer go to bat for Hamas, they will also see the very futility of sending further humanitarian aid, given to date, it seems to be coming back cleverly disguised as rockets, suicide vests, mortar bombs and bullets?
I mean, seriously, how can you deal with a group that is patently prepared to sacrifice their own women and children! To the last one standing!!
Only possible, given hate has forced every ounce of love from the thoroughly evil hearts of mass murdering Satan's servants!
All humanitarian aid should cease forthwith, and rightly so, with Gaza having its very own Trillion with a T, treasure chest on its very doorstep!
Well done Killarney!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 2 August 2014 9:52:09 AM
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Gaza is Egyptian territory returned as part of a peace deal as was Sinai. The Egyptians are trying to do their bit by closing off the tunnel entires from Egypt which is primarily depriving Gazans of KFC. Now you may ask why Egypt, if it is the legitimate authority in Gaza doesn't take charge? My response is why would you! There is no siege of Gaza, this is another lie unless you count the denial of military supplies. Because all the medical supplies and concrete pass through the border posts above ground with Israeli permission. If the amount of Cement which has gone into Gaza in the last year was used to build schools, hospitals and homes as it was suppose to, or even bomb shelters. Rather than tunnels and weapons factories the death toll would be far less.
Posted by Jon R, Saturday, 2 August 2014 10:14:04 AM
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Ah Killarney, there is a slight problem with your scenario, Gaza is not a country. Any gas found off the coast is Egypt's. Also given the advances in oblique drilling and the size of the Gaza enclave it is anybodies who can reach it. In other words stop clutching at straws to explain Israel's response to rocket attacks from Gaza. What do you think would happen to Tasmania if it started launching rockets at Victoria, or the ACT (much more likely) at NSW? Would the huge coal reserves under the Nations capital be a justification for a response from NSW? (Yes I know there aren't, but I am trying to make a point.)
Posted by Jon R, Saturday, 2 August 2014 10:28:29 AM
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morning Steelie,

Many thanks for the rap and the comparison with Foxy’s myopia. Just wondering if you were going to get down and dirty with the content of my post?

Not like you to miss the opportunity for a bit of fact checking is it?

Hello?
Posted by spindoc, Saturday, 2 August 2014 11:32:43 AM
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Dear spindoc,

Indeed I do care about the facts which is why when I come across a post so completely devoid of factual material that I generally choose not to engage in addressing it because by its very nature it condemns itself completely.

But since you have asked me to review your piece I condescend to do so but in the interest of brevity may I ask for some clarification from you.

Your opening contention was;

“Ever since Gaza was invaded and occupied by the Moslem Brotherhood by proxy, Hamas”

In 2006 Hamas won 76 of the 132 seats in the Palestinian parliament in an election whose results were regarded as legitimate by the rest of the world including the US. Given your statement was egregiously incorrect and without a scintilla of substance I would like you to tell me which part of the rest of your post you consider the highlight of factual reasoning and I will attempt to address it with due diligence, something I note is completely missing from your interaction with others who disagree with you on this forum.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 2 August 2014 11:51:34 AM
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Oops Steelie,

Would that be the 2006 elections in the West Bank? Just before Hamas were defeated in military conflict with the PA. Which was just before Hamas then occupied Gaza?

Just giving you the opportunity to check those pesky facts Steelie.
Posted by spindoc, Saturday, 2 August 2014 12:19:08 PM
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Try this for size, Wakim. You wanna stop the war?

Tell the "Palestinians" to stop shooting rockets and mortar bombs over the border at the Israelis, and the Israelis will stop shooting back.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 2 August 2014 1:08:37 PM
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Rhrosty

'If it was all about gas, there is a peace process and international law.'

Well to that, Bomber, old man, I feel like keying HA-HA-HA ad infinitum until the word count runs out and then resume again with another post or two. However, I don't want to wear out my H and A keys.

International law and Israel bear absolutely no relationship whatsoever to each other. I doubt very much if there has ever been a country in the entire history of the world that ever shown more contempt for international law than Israel - and only because it is allowed to keep on getting away with it.

And as for what you refer to as a 'peace process', there is no peace process between Israel and the Palestinians. It never existed and it never will. There is, of course, a few jaunts that a bunch of pro-Israel politicians from a bunch of pro-Israel countries make every few years to some location or other in which they do a lot of talking and boozing and posing and handshaking in order to pass a bunch of resolutions and accords and agreements that favour Israel and officially declare any group of two or more Palestinians in a room together a terrorist organisation.

No, Bomber, no Palestinian will ever even see a cent of that trillion dollars worth of gas, especially now that Israel is likely to militarily occupy Gaza again - with total impunity under international law of course.

And for goodness sake, ease up on all that rubbish about Hamas hiding under women's skirts and kiddies' beds. As an ex-soldier, you of all people must know that macho men are not into that sort of thing. It's a typical macho projection by macho men onto other macho men to give themselves a justification for killing each other.
Posted by Killarney, Saturday, 2 August 2014 6:35:18 PM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

<<Now I need to get this right, are you asking us to shed a tear for a specialist soldier of an invading army, highly trained in killing Palestinians, part of a brutal war machine that is decimating a mainly civilian population, whose prime minister sneeringly describes the corpses of children as “telegenic” and all the while 85% of Israelis support the slaughter?>>

I am asking you to shed a tear for all the Palestinian children who will not be saved next time due to this incidence.

Matan Gotlib (21) may have been trained in different ways and participated in many other missions, but he had no orders from Netanyahu to assist Palestinian children - his last mission was his private initiative because he was an active boy scout, to help Palestinian children in distress.

As a result, future Israeli military orders would likely be tightened to prevent soldiers from helping or believing Palestinian children. Palestinian children would again be the victims of being used as a trap by Hamas. Shed a tear for them!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 2 August 2014 11:34:22 PM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

You wrote;

“As a result, future Israeli military orders would likely be tightened to prevent soldiers from helping or believing Palestinian children. Palestinian children would again be the victims of being used as a trap by Hamas. Shed a tear for them!”

And I am still trying to accept the fact that you felt this was a reasonable thing to say.

My god, it is the Israeli military's wholesale slaughter of children that has most of the world shedding tears. The bombing of UN school after school, of houses containing mostly children to get at a single Hamas official, of tank shells blasting hospitals where children lie in agony suffering life altering wounds and disfigurements. So you would have us believe the IDF will be even less wary of killing more Palestinian children because of the death of this soldier?

I'm sorry Yuyutsu but you are being offensive.

And where is the source saying this soldier was helping Palestinian children. I have read nothing of it. This is the closest article I have found.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/2-IDF-soldiers-killed-in-booby-trapped-tunnel-in-Gaza-369455

The language is of course so over the top. Every Hamas fighter is referred to as a terrorist;

“Battles between Hamas and the IDF continued, and the army killed dozens of terrorists who attempted to hamper its work to discover and destroy tunnels. The army destroyed five tunnel shafts on Wednesday. During the day, a Givati infantry unit destroyed a tunnel shaft, and another unit uncovered several additional shafts across the Strip. Paratroopers detected two terrorists emerging from a shaft they found, and opened fire at them, killing the gunmen. Givati soldiers, working with the combat engineers, detected 10 terrorists who attacked them with an antitank missile, causing light wounds among two soldiers.”

These are fighters resisting an invasion of their land by an army which is slaughtering a great number of civilians. Booby trapping a tunnel has far more military and moral legitimacy than bombing a UN refuge at a school, or a hospital, or a playground, or three boys playing on a beach.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 3 August 2014 3:12:50 AM
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When Israel bombed and destroyed Saddam Hussein's Osirak nuclear facility producing weapons grade plutonium, Killarney, it definitely broke international law.

It also did more for nuclear disarmament in 5 minitues than all the UN peace resolutions in the last 60 years.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 3 August 2014 8:32:37 AM
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Yuyutsu,

Steele is just a spruiker. He has no real concern for causalities or human rights he just uses such things to push his favourite causes.
Posted by SPQR, Sunday, 3 August 2014 9:02:51 AM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

<<And where is the source saying this soldier was helping Palestinian children. I have read nothing of it.>>

It's in Hebrew, so I'm afraid you will need to translate it:

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/602/921.html

Below is the output of the google translator (first two paragraphs), which you can verify for yourself. Unrelated web-pages tell of his extensive involvement in the boy-scouts:

The incident in Khan Younis: "The soldiers helped the children - and they blew up the building"
Sergeant's brother who was killed when a device providing Gottlieb placed under UNRWA's clinic revealed details of the investigation of the incident: "Palestinian children asked for help - and the place was entered giving mined. Did not say that we are not humane"

Soldiers helped the children of Palestinians - and were killed, "Palestinian children asked him for help - and where he entered was mined. Always wanted to help, everyone - even those on the other side. Did not tell us then we are not humane - that just then blew up the house and took him" said this morning (Thursday) Omar's brother, Sergeant Gottlieb providing, of Rishon Lezion was killed in Khan Younis in the incident yesterday.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 3 August 2014 9:45:39 AM
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Dear Yuyutsu,

I'm afraid I remain deeply suspicious about anything that comes from the IDF and this stinks to high heaven of an attempted human interest story around the son of a prominent Israel figure.

Here is part of a headline of another link to the story. “Israel confirmed that they were killed by a bomb placed in a tunnel built under the clinic of the UN refugee agency”
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/602/756.html?hp=1&cat=875

We have already established that the site was not a 'clinic of the UN refugee agency' unless of course you want us to take the word of the IDF over the UN. We now know the tunnel entrance was booby trapped not the building per se. Now you are wanting us to believe that Palestinian children revealed the tunnel's location to the IDF squad by calling for help at that location? Why on earth would they do that? Hamas has obviously put a lot of time and effort into these structures and regard them as military assets. It beggars belief that they would want their location compromised.

Sorry mate but not swallowing it one bit.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 3 August 2014 11:01:18 AM
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@Steele,

<<I'm afraid I remain deeply suspicious about anything that comes from the IDF...>>

HOW BLOODY PREDICTABLE!

Yuyutsu don't you know "the Palestinians" would neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever do anything naughty!
Posted by SPQR, Sunday, 3 August 2014 1:18:15 PM
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steelee

mate yutu and Leggo are proven cowards and liars. Neither will reveal themselves as they are fearful our anti discrimination and vilification laws would see them convicted of offences.

SPQR is another who has gone very close in these. Regards.

Keith Kennelly
Posted by imajulianutter, Sunday, 3 August 2014 4:28:23 PM
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Dear Imajulianutter,

<<mate yutu and Leggo are proven cowards and liars. Neither will reveal themselves>>

On a recent thread, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16554#289319 you threatened to convert me by force.
Later in that thread you complained that:

"Israel might be a democracy but it is not at all in any way the same as the Christian based western liberal democracies."

Now you expect me (and other infidels) to just give you my personal details so you can bomb my house or poison my food or take some other "Christian based western liberal" action along those lines.

(... or perhaps just impose some special heavy tax on non-Christians who refuse to convert, just like the new tax introduced by your friends in Mosul?)

Anyone who is not a Christian (or even not the right type of Christian, perhaps an Eastern or Coptic Christian) - BEWARE a proselytising crusader at large!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 3 August 2014 7:33:15 PM
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To Julianutter

Your seem to be suggesting that I should give you my name and address so that you can have me prosecuted under 18C? That is why I am not going to give you my name and address. I know that it won't stop the sundry Anti Discrimination Boards coming after me if they want to. But I don't think that even those crazy commissars want the publicity. Even they are smart enough to know that censoring a debate site by prosecuting contributors would make too many of their left liberal supporters feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.Freedom of political speech on any social issue is supposed to be a left liberal sacred cow. They got too much bad press from the Bolt affair to begin another show trial of another political dissident.

But I love the way you think that force is the best way to shut us up. Got a bit of the commissar in you too, eh, Julianutter? Are you that stupid that you really do think that the best way to stop criticism of your beloved state supported ideology is to arrest and "re educate" your opponents in some gulag somewhere? I suppose that you are just frustrated because Rhosty, SPQR, Shockie and I can run rings around you in fair debate. It wasn't supposed to be like that, was it? You as a card carrying member of the intelligent elite should have been able to completely trash the arguments of us cretinous racists. But since you can't, then showing us the instruments of torture should do the trick instead.

You better have a look at yourself in the mirror mate. If you really think that you are a liberal, you just turned into the sort of person that real liberal people would instinctively fight against. You have become a person who puts the threat of force over reasoned argument and critical analysis. Stop deluding yourself that you are a liberal. You are a leftist totalitarian. Realise what you have now become and do a bit of introspection.
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 4 August 2014 7:36:13 AM
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Killarney:
<<<there is no peace process between Palestine and Israel. There never was and never will be one>>>>
With your very own words Killarney, (Hamas Fellow traveler) you have condemned Gaza to more of the same, or a Nazi style pogrom.
Personally, I think we should all just get entirely out of the way!
And indeed, stop buying any middle east oil, or handing over any foreign aid; given this money is just the very money being converted to rockets and baby killing bombs!
If there can never ever be peace Killarney, what then is the only ever available option?
Endless genocide and reprisal Killings; with a capital K Killarney?
Each more horrific and bloodthirsty than that which proceeded it!?
More homeless widows weeping over buried babies!?
What a wish list Killer Killarney, and may you live long enough to see it completely realized, and in full measure!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Monday, 4 August 2014 11:20:48 AM
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Cowards writ large in both your posts.

Neither of you are liberal at all. Your posts also show that.

Keith Kennelly.
Posted by imajulianutter, Monday, 4 August 2014 10:53:29 PM
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[Deleted. Abuse.]
Posted by imajulianutter, Monday, 4 August 2014 11:00:27 PM
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