Thank Christ these people seek "martyrdom" near Israel, in Syria and Iraq and not in Australia.

I much prefer the essay by Noura Erakat titled Five Israeli Talking (propagands) Points on Gaza Debunked.
Plus Johann Hari's interview with Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza featured on The Independent (26th July) - an interview which provides some necessary insights as to how the zionists have in one way or another, and even deliberately, created a situation which systematically dehumanizes the Palestinians, and traps them like traumatized rats in a cage, from which there is no escape.

I have NO sympathy for the Palestinians, they could stop the violence overnight, by simply stopping their rockets. The "innocent" civilians choose not to, they allow their people to keep launching them from schools and hospitals etc, and then choose to stay in areas they know will be bombed, therefore they are de-facto combatants, and any suffering is purely voluntary.

This sums it up succinctly, and inarguabley...

"If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel" - Benjamin Netanyahu

If the Israelis announced a midnight truce, every night, how soon do you think Hamas rockets might be flying into Israel, every night ?

But at least Gaza Palestinians might get a bit more sleep, until Israel responded, every night, as it would have the right to do.

Stop the rockets, and let's see what happens.

Joe

Here are quotes from the Wikipedia page dealing with the investigation into the last time the Israeli government massacred and brutalised the Gazan population United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict;

Quote

The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability".

The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate.

The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.

End quote.

Nothing has changed.

Hi Steele,

I hope that if Israel announced a cease-fire, that would be it - Hamas would stop firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel. In other words, if Israel stopped, Hamas would stop. 'Peace'. Sleep. Rebuilding.

Do you really think that will ever happen ?

Joe

Dear Joe,

I support both peoples being allowed to live behind secure borders with the right to defend themselves against invasion and occupation.

Let's look at the conflict through the lens of the other side.

After the tragedy of the deaths of the three Israeli boys hitchhiking in the occupied territories the Israeli government propagated the lie that they thought the victims were still alive then proceeded to kill, wound and kidnap those they considered aligned to Hamas living in the West Bank. They demolished homes, charities and businesses all the while attacking targets within Gaza with missile strikes and artillery rounds. These were not actions around supposed rocket fire from Hamas because there wasn't any to speak of before the killings. What do you expect Hamas to do? Sit there and take a brutal crack down and slaughters of their citizens by the occupiers?

Indeed what do you think was an appropriate response to the targeting of the four young boys playing on the beach in Gaza, or the 5 Israeli missiles that hit the hospital, or the Israeli mortar shell that targeted a play ground? Do you think they should say 'okay you have beaten us and we will comply with your demands'?

Time and time again the Israelis have been found guilty of collective punishment of the Palestinian people, are not the rockets the only means of Hamas doing the same?

You see the script is similar for either side and we might despair at the warped logic from them both but the inescapable fact is that only one of them is exacting a monstrous toll in civilian lives that should be an affront to any civilized person.

Cont...

Cont...

Do I think there is hope for the peace you described? Not with the current Israeli government, they will not allow it as it would mean complying with UN resolutions to withdraw from the occupied territories. As Bill Clinton said;

“ You know, you can't re-create the conditions that existed when I put together a proposal that Israel accepted and that Arafat didn't accept. But I do think it's worth remembering that at some point after the late Prime Minister Sharon became Prime Minister, at some point after that, Arafat said he would accept it and we needed to fill in the blanks. Then, after that, when Mr Abbas became the president of the Palestinians he said that he would accept it. By then the internal politics of Israel had changed quite a bit.”

IMFA Bulletin for 29 Jul 2014

"4 IDF soldiers killed in mortar attack in Eshkol region. Hamas claims responsibility. 5 soldiers killed thwarting infiltration from Gaza through a tunnel. Shifa Hospital in Gaza site struck by failed rocket attacks launched by Gaza terrorists."

You've seen all those ISIL terrorist recruitment videos helpfully (to the terrorist cause) played again and again by ABC and SBS.

Well here's "Targeting Hamas' terrorism against Israeli civilians" at http://youtu.be/Bunxinu6eNQ

Oh how my heart bleeds for those poor besieged overlords having to put up with armed resistance from the submen. Stubborn armed resistance. Unending armed resistance. For as long as the overlords encroach on their homeland.

Makes one think of the angst of their Nazi predecessors: if only the Resistance would see reason and accept the Reich’s right to occupy their land and daily bully their people. All they had to do was see reason and the punishment battalions and Einsatzgruppen would return to barracks.

Not that the Zionists need the Nazis as the source of their self-image. After all, they had the Bible for reference, with the grand plan already laid out for example at Deuteronomy 20 – read it at http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/20-17.htm to get the drift.

Thankfully, humanity doesn’t work like that and hopefully it never will. All we need to do is pick a side.

@ Daffy Duck
If you believe anything that comes from Gideon Levy , you must believe the tooth fairy

Dear Julian,

<<All we need to do is pick a side.>>

If I were living in Gaza, then I would clearly pick the Israeli side (that is unless I were a fanatic Muslim).

When Israel ruled Gaza, ordinary Gazans had more freedom and prosperity than ever, including under Egyptian rule. There was a time, before the intifadas, when they worked and travelled in Israel without restrictions, not even roadblocks. Israelis too built factories in Gaza and went there shopping. Now when Hamas came to power, dissenters were thrown off roofs or shot at (minor dissenters were only shot at the knees). Beforehand, Gazans could do what they like and enjoyed the beach and a Western lifestyle - but now they are faced with modesty-patrols which cover the women and do not allow unmarried men and women to meet.

Can you also imagine what happens to a Gazan family which refuses to dedicate a room in their home for missile-storage as requested?

Now pick for yourself. Do you favour the Gazan people, or their oppressors?

@ SteeleRedux
I’d quit while I was ahead if I were you.

You are making yourself look more stupid by the moment.

In regards to the Goldstone Report “Nothing has changed”

Really?

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ngos_vs_goldstone_ngo_monitor_analysis

The whole thing was a ‘put up job’, people were paid by NGOs to give false testimony.

You don’t seriously believe the Israeli government knew the three boys were dead and didn’t say anything surely?

Are you for real “supposed rocket fire from Hamas because there wasn't any to speak of before the killings”?

What planet do you live on?

From January until the start of the offensive Hamas had fired in excess 500 rockets into Israel. They also killed 59 Gazans with those rockets falling short.!

Israel did not “demolish homes, charities and businesses or attack Gaza with anything.”

Where you are getting this rubbish from?

When the bodies of the boys were found Hamas increased the rocket fire. Israel warned them a few times and then retaliated.

Israel quickly found and arrested the youths who killed the Arab boy. The PA refused to help find the murderers of the 3 boys and in true Arab style in Gaza, when the deaths were announced, they celebrated as per their norm, handing out sweets and candies.

The deaths of the boys on the beach was thanks to Hamas.
Eyewitness report from a journalist
http://myrightword.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/gaza-beach-shelling-eyewitnesses.html

Again the missile that hit the hospital was the fault of Hamas. I cannot locate the link

The school, again Hamas
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183413#.U9ewELGc6M1

Hamas have killed 169 children who were used in the making of their tunnels.?
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180400/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels#ElA0UqhtFS1LfSs2.01

Hamas threatening journalists for telling the truth.
http://www.examiner.com/article/journalists-receive-death-threats-after-reporting-hamas-uses-human-shields

Time to take the blinkers off.

OH and BTW Arafat never agreed to anything. In fact he said in an interview with Christiane Amanpour that if he accepted a peace deal it would be tantamount to betraying his people. All the while he stole money given to them as international aid.

#plantaganet

Given that up to 150 Australian Jihadists are known to be fighting in Syria and Iraq - one only hopes your fears do not become a horrible reality in Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-23/australian-jihadists-prompt-government-to-consider-new-security/5542738

#steeleredux

You seem to be unable to comprehend that the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israeli population centers is absolutely forbidden under international law no matter what the circumstances or the perceived provocation. Nor is fighting from within Gazan population centers or storing weapons in those population centers permitted in international law - and the evidence seems to be mounting that these two cardinal breaches of the laws of warfare are also being committed.

You seem to also overlook the fact that Israel has the inherent right to self defence under article 51 of the UN Charter. Even the European Union agrees.
http://www.eu-un.europa.eu/articles/en/article_15300_en.htm

#Emperor Julian

Apparently you have picked the side that declares:

"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

When are you converting to avoid having your head cut off?

#Yuyutsu

Your excellent summation overlooks the plight of Christian Gazans and what has happened to that community since Hamas assumed control.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/04/gaza-christians-safety.html#

"The failure of many Gazans to leave their homes"

What like they did in 1948 singer?

"Respect for life has become the real victim."

Says the side with 1000+ peoples blood on their hands.

Just how stupid do you zionists think we are?

It is israel killing children and civilians not the Palestinians.
It is israel blowing up peoples houses and community infrastructure not the Palestinians.
It is israel stealing peoples land and committing ethnic cleansing not the Palestinians.

Israel is a murderous rogue state driven by religious fanaticism and racist hatred. Worse than South Africa ever was.
SANCTIONS NOW!

Good ol' Mikk ...feed him something and he'll go on repeating it forever without thought

<<It is israel killing children and civilians not the Palestinians>>

That might be news to all those Israelis blasted by HAMAS or Safalis bombs or rockets.

Hi Mikk,

Then stop firing off the rockets in the general direction of Israel (mostly). End of.

Joe

"That might be news to all those Israelis blasted by HAMAS or Safalis bombs or rockets."

israelis frightened by hamas rockets does not stand up against palestinians blown to bits by israeli bombs.
The murderous response from the zionists that kills palestinians in their thousands is the real crime here and all of you apologist, arab hating shills will never convince the world otherwise.

FIGHT WAR NOT WARS!

Hi Mikk.,

'Fight war, not wars !"

Gosh, how noble, how lofty.

So how to stop the indiscriminate firing off of rockets, a couple of thousand at last count. No, they didn't hit much, but that's not for want of trying. The intent, after all, of every one is to hit a Jew.

"END TERRORISM, NEGOTIATE ON THE BASIS OF COMMON HUMANITY."

Wow, upper-case looks so commanding.

Joe

Dear Mikk,

<<The murderous response from the zionists>>

The response you refer to is by the state of Israel.
Some of those are Zionists, other not, but as far as Hamas is concerned, if they had their way they would kill every Israeli - they won't ask any questions to find who is a Zionist and who isn't.

<<arab hating shills will never convince the world otherwise.>>

As above, some Israelis hate Arabs, others don't.

Nevertheless, if Hamas had its way, it would not ask indivdual Israelis whether they hate them or not - they will just throw them in the Mediterranean sea first.

You are right that neither Arab-hating nor Arab-loving Israelis will ever convince the world of anything, but this way, doing what they do they are at least alive - not convincing, but alive, rather than convincing and dead.

Re Zoinism --here's an enlightening little snippet:

"Later that February, AQI (Al-Qaeda in Iraq) chief Abu-Umar al-Baghdadi declared Israel to be a religious state in which there is no difference between Judaism and Zionism. Both were ‘the core and origin of corruption’ Israel was ‘a malignant germ that has been planted in the body of the ummah that must be extracted” ’ [ Osama Bin Laden , Michael Scheuer , p158]

#mikk

You quote me and then comment in the following terms:

"Respect for life has become the real victim."

Says the side with 1000+ peoples blood on their hands.

Just how stupid do you zionists think we are?

It is israel killing children and civilians not the Palestinians.
It is israel blowing up peoples houses and community infrastructure not the Palestinians.
It is israel stealing peoples land and committing ethnic cleansing not the Palestinians."

That is a pretty inane summation of what has occurred.

Here are some facts:

1. 8 July - Operation Protective Edge commenced

2. 16 July - Ceasefire brokered by Egypt was accepted by Israel and rejected by Hamas. There was no justifiable reason for Hamas rejecting the offer to cease fire. The first objective was always to end the military confrontation and see where talks went from there. At this stage there were 135 reported Gazan deaths and 1139 casualties.

3. 17 July - Israeli ground forces entered Gaza

4. 30 July - 1139 Gazans reported dead and 6200 casualties

The Hamas decision to reject the 16 July ceasefire has seen 1004 additional deaths and 5183 additional casualties that could have been avoided had Hamas not spit the dummy and rejected the ceasefire.

Hamas's continuing refusal to accept a ceasefire is going to ensure a lot more Gazan deaths and casualties until the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israeli population centres ceases.

Does Hamas show any respect for human life of the 1.8 million Gazans it rules over - whose lives remain in danger in Gaza as Hamas terrorists keep themselves secreted safely away in underground tunnels without caring how many Gazans die and are wounded as Hamas carries out its vile campaign targeting Israeli civilians indiscriminately?

Taking sides. Yuyutsu and David Singer et al.: There are more sides than two. Think historically – to the war when Australians were virtually unanimous on one side between the European Resistance and the vermin who were occupying their homelands by force and violence. This had to mean taking sides with sundry Communists, enemies of the people, NKVD butchers, etc. etc. But between the Resistance and the Krauts it was a no-brainer – resist to get the occupiers’ pig snouts out of their country. Would the Resistance concede the Germans’ right to exist? Of course. But not their vile Reich. Would they listen to enemies of their own people (indeed of the whole world) pretending sympathy and urging them to lay down their arms and accept submen status in return for the overlords’ permission to live? No way.

The basic facts of history have repeated themselves in Palestine. They repeated themselves in South Africa. They have repeated themselves wherever overlords have ruled over a people by force and violence without justice in the people’s own homeland. Taking sides between the overlords and those they treat as submen is always a clear choice. Where Yuyutsu and David Singer et al. currently stand, the side they choose between overlords and submen, defines them.

There is no reason that an Israel under Palestinian rule would be any better than such peaceful, tranquil and non-sectarian countries as Lebanon, Syria and Iraq

FFS sake singer do you even read what you write?

"4. 30 July - 1139 Gazans reported dead and 6200 casualties"

Yeah murdered by israeli bombs, missiles and guns. I repeat ISRAELI BOMBS, MISSILES AND GUNS! Not hamas, not fatah, not the gazan people ISRAEL. It was israeli soldiers who pulled the triggers. Israeli generals who chose the targets. Israeli leaders who authorised the murders.

You cant escape the facts singer. The facts that it is israel killing civilians, children and women not hamas, not the palestinians, not the palestinian authority. Israel does not have to do this to defend themselves. They choose to murder civilians and they dont care when they do.
The facts are israel is the country with the F-16s, the apache gunships, the drones and missiles and bombs. Not to mention their weapons of mass destruction. The palestinians have firecrackers in comparison. Firecrackers that are no real threat to israel. As the lack of casualties proves. Another "fact".

Boys on a beach, a bunch of friends watching the world cup. Whole families. All non combatants. All murdered by israel. Targeting and destroying schools, hospitals, churches, power stations. All civilian infrastructure. All war crimes. All no possible threat to israel and all vital to the civilians of gaza.
The facts prove this is a gross overreaction by israel, again, that is aimed at and uncaring of the civilians of Gaza and thus a crime against humanity and a violation of the laws of war and civilisation.
Squirm your way out of those "facts" singer.

israel does not want peace. They want all palestinians dead or exiled. They want all the land west of the Jordan river and they are committing genocide, ethnic cleansing and murder to get it.
They must be stopped.

Dear Julian,

Yes, I do have an open account with Zionism, the Jewish settlers, the occupation, the Likud government, etc.

But not today. While the war is going on, this account is suspended. While Hamas is trying to send armed men in tunnels to kill my family, we are all united in this unholy alliance to destroy, or at least to incapacitate, Hamas. For now.

Yes, it feels uncomfortable to see my name listed alongside David Singer, but my family is even more uncomfortable when they cannot sleep a night through because they need to jump out of bed and run for shelter several times a night.

My ideal alliance is between all those people in the region who wouldn't mess up with my family. Those Arabs who do not identify with Hamas and the like, who only want to be left alone and live in peace, those I would like to help. I would like to give them everything I can - their own state if they wish, Israeli citizenship otherwise, open and unlimited access by land sea and air, financial support to help them recover, etc.

But Alas, they are too afraid to come out, they are hostages of Hamas, they dare not open their mouth. Whatever I would currently give them is ruthlessly confiscated by Hamas. Had the world allowed Israel to finish Hamas completely, then those innocent civilians could come out of hiding and be freed.

Being used as human shields, suppose 10% of them need be killed while Hamas is uprooted. In their place I would take the chance: 10% risk of dying alongside 90% of living in freedom - if I were a Gazan, I would take this deal and silently pray for Israel's success!

Once ordinary good Arabs are free of their oppressive brethren, then we could fight the Jewish occupation together.

"Jewish Occupation" yes eretz Israel is the home of the Jews and has been for over 3,500 years.

We are not going anywhere. Prior to the advent of Hamas Jews and Arab lived happily side by side in Gaza

mikk:

“Israel is a murderous rogue state driven by religious fanaticism and racist hatred”

You’re funny. For a moment there I assumed you are being sarcastic. Why didn’t you proceed to describe the progressive nature and legendary tolerance of the benevolent Hamas regime where everyone is welcome to practice their religion?

You also seem to forget (or ignore) the fact that Hamas are deliberately placing civilians in harm’s way. Before you protest and leap to their defence, this is not my theory. This is what Hamas leaders are actually saying to their people. There is plenty of evidence on the Internet if you only care to look.

thanks David. A breath of fresh air for the truth to be told. Pity that most are fed ABC/Al Jazeera as their propaganda source.

Dear SF,

You are a strident advocate for the crimes of Israel, and have a deep propensity to take any criticism of it as being anti-Semitic.

Your posting record makes shameful reading and is peppered with the libel of 'anti-Semite' against all and sundry.

24/05/2013 9:43:33 AM @ Asclepius Before coming out with, dare I say it, an antisemitic remark such as you have.....
21/02/2013 11:05:25 PM Marilyn, you have repeatedly proved your antisemitic credentials, so enough already. I ha.....
14/02/2013 7:58:21 PM Marilyn Shepherd once again your vile antisemitism is showing. Your comments are an insult.....
13/02/2013 8:24:36 PM To imajulianutter: I think you had better re-think your foul antisemitic attitude. You ar.....
21/01/2013 9:01:38 PM Arjay: Watch out mate, your antisemitism is showing badly with every one of your posts. .....
29/12/2012 11:28:02 AM David G, your post has to be one of the most racist/antisemitic ones I have seen on a reas.....
15/12/2012 7:32:15 PM Well said Danielle, they won't believe because they are antisemites. SAY WHAT? ANTI-SEMIT.....

The fact that you are prepared to use this very loaded term with so little restraint and with so little appreciation of how much it devalues the word indicates to me just how little you respect its legacy and those who were victims of its practice.

As such I feel putting any work into answering any of your rot to be a complete waste of time.

You are shameful.

Good day to you madam.

If the boy next door keeps throwing stones at my windows then is it surprising that he gets a kick in the arse?

'You are a strident advocate for the crimes of Israel' Only the gullible or deceivers could believe that rot. I suppose Hamas who clubs their own people trying to leave are the angels. You really have no idea SteeleRedux and its obvious you want to stay that way.

Dear David Singer,

You quoted this in your article;

“The [Hamas] Ministry of the Interior and National Security calls on our honorable people in all parts of the [Gaza] Strip to ignore the warnings [to vacate areas near rocket launching sites before Israel bombs them] that are being disseminated by the Israeli occupation through manifestos and phone messages, as these are part of a psychological war meant to sow confusion on the [Palestinian] home front, in light of the [Israeli] enemy's security failure and its confusion and bewilderment.”

Those bracketed additions were not in the original statement.

Why did you feel the need to embellish it to such an extent? It was a clumsy attempt at propaganda. Admittedly it doesn't compare to the outright lies offered by your military spokespersons but at least they are being exposed by some of the online shows in the US;

http://youtu.be/ktzKMW3su5E?list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

In future try and restrain yourself.

I agree that the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel is against International Law although if the lethality is so limited then I'm not sure it can compare in any direct fashion to the list against Israel;

“The UN Human Rights Council, as well as many non-governmental organizations such as Amnesty International (AI) and Human Rights Watch, have accused the Israeli government of violating international law as regards collective punishment, targeting civilians, proportionality, of prohibiting access to medical assistance,  and of using civilians as human shields.'
Wikipedia

In fact I consider it an outright insult that someone like you would even dare to lecture another about International Law when the country you so enthusiastically support has defied the UN and the Geneva Convention. I remind you again of the Convention's prohibitions on occupying powers;

“Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.”

“The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

#SteeleRedux

I take extreme care to ensure there are no factual errors in my articles and interestingly note yours is the first ever claim
that I have ever received.

I supplied the source for the quote you take exception to in my article. It was clear that the bracketed words were explanatory of the quote and they were not inserted by me but included in the quote by my source.

Did you even check the quote before you made this extraordinary comment:

"Why did you feel the need to embellish it to such an extent? It was a clumsy attempt at propaganda...

... In future try and restrain yourself.

Here is the source once again for you to check containing the bracketed words you wrongfully attribute to me:

http://www.palwatch.org/site/modules/print/preview.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=12019&section=all

Dare I hope to receive an apology from you for wrongfully accusing me of embellishing a quote and making a clumsy attempt at propaganda?

At least we are making some progress with your following comment:

"I agree that the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel is against International Law although if the lethality is so limited then I'm not sure it can compare in any direct fashion to the list against Israel;"

"Lethality" has nothing to do with the commission of the crime of indiscriminately firing rockets into civilian populations.

So far 2500 such crimes have been committed in the last three weeks by Hamas and other terrorist groups embedded in Gaza.

You claim that these admitted war crimes do not compare in any direct fashion to the list against Israel.

Please specify one event constituting a war crime in these same last three weeks that you can point to that has been committed by Israel and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

Allegations will not be good enough - not what "might" be war crimes. Allegations must be proved - not merely mouthed.

I mean clear and demonstrable war crimes - such as those rockets fired indiscriminately into Israeli population centers.

Come on - there is a challenge for you and all the other Israel bashers

#mikk

You obviously cannot distinguish between murder and self defence.

Israel has an inherent right to self defence under article 51 of the UN Charter.

Whilst Hamas and other terrorist groups continue to cowardly secrete themselves, their rockets, rocket launchers and tunnels among Gaza's civilian population, its mosques, schools, hospitals and ambulances - and urge Gazan civilians to stay in their houses despite warnings by Israel to leave - the number of Gazan deaths and casualties are certain to increase.

It is horrible to witness and very distressing - especially when you consider much of it it could have been avoided if Hamas had not rejected the ceasefire brokered by Egypt on 16 July which Israel accepted.

#Emperor Julian

My idea of taking sides involves choosing between good and evil - not David against Goliath or resistance against occupation.

Hamas is evil in its intent to eliminate Israel off the face of the map and consign 6.3 million Jews to the fate currently being suffered by Christians in Syria and Iraq by another evil group ISIS.

It is blunt and honest and expresses its intentions openly in the Hamas Charter:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?"

Hamas is also evil in trying to achieve its objectives by conducting a war embedding itself among 1.8 million Gazans without caring how many of them are killed or wounded or rendered homeless.

You are perfectly entitled to choose evil over good. Just be man enough to admit it.

Dear David Singer,

Of course I looked at the source material and I was very careful with my words.

You did not say it was an embellished statement from a dodgy website called Palestinian Media Watch but rather you told us;

“The psychological platform is evidenced by Hamas's Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum calling on its civilian population on 12 July to ignore Israel's warnings and remain in their homes in spite of the danger:”

His statement to the media did not include the bracketed words did they. You had the true source material in front of you but chose to include the bracketed words despite it being clearly obvious they were not part of the original statement. By retaining them you are rightly accused of embellishment. I can understand why a site like PMW might engage in such enhancements but I would prefer articles on OLO were free from them.

Given the video below the one we are discussing does not contain its bracketed material in the direct quote underneath it I suspect first may have been a mistake on their behalf. You sir however are supposedly a trained lawyer. I repeat, yours was not a mistake but a conscious decision to retain material clearly not part of the original quote.

You wrote;

“Hamas is also evil in trying to achieve its objectives by conducting a war embedding itself among 1.8 million Gazans without caring how many of them are killed or wounded or rendered homeless.”

Could just as easily written as;

'Israel is also evil in trying to achieve its objectives by conducting a war using a false premise to kill and wound scores and to kidnap hundreds of Palestinians in the West Bank, to destroy hundreds of homes, businesses and charities, and to strike at the Gaza Strip thus provoking Hamas to strike back with rockets which ultimately put Israel's own citizens in danger and has lead to well over a thousand civilian deaths among a beleaguered, blighted and abused peoples. All prosecuted without caring how many on both sides are killed or wounded or rendered homeless.'

It's worth noticing how many of the comments here could have been made during the war by Hitler's sympathisers in Germany and formally neutral but collaborating countries like Switzerland complaining about the Resistance, and advising victims under enemy occupation to be good chaps and stop resisting the Reich as it only brings hellfire down on them. After all, surrender would have shortened the war (while of course extending slavery and dispossession longer and ever more widely)

Different times, but exactly the same principles apply in parallel circumstances today. And exactly the same kind of people advancing exactly the same advice.

@Emperor J,

Hitler would have made a great HAMAS operative right down to his teetotalism --and some of the Hamas apologists on this thread have done some pretty good renditions of goosestepping!

Dear Julian,

So lets suppose that the Australian aboriginals offered resistance to the fact that you live here. Suppose they called on you to "return to England", notwithstanding the fact that you were born in Australia and never even been in England. Now suppose you refused to return to England (not that England would be so happy to take you either), so they started shooting rockets on your home, digging under it and trying to kill you in any way they could, surely you wouldn't complain about that resistance...?

The power-balance between Palestinians and Israelis is about the same as between aboriginals and Australia, so do you think that they have any chance to throw the Israelis out, or just kill them off, ever?

Suppose even that the Palestinians are right - would that convince you to move to England, or assuming that England would not accept you, would it convince you to move to a refugee-camp in Somalia instead?

The anti-Nazi resistance was intelligent and responsible, yet your Palestinian buddies are fools! The way they behave they will NEVER get anything but their own death and the death of their children, with lots of misery in between. They could have got by now almost all they ever wanted: almost, except for throwing the Israelis to the Mediterranean sea - but as they won't settle for any less, they end up with NOTHING!

Meanwhile, I have every reason to complain, because this lame "resistance" has brought the Jewish settlers to power in Israel. Without their futile violence, Israel could have become a normal country long ago and would have returned their 1967 territories too and gave the Palestinians equal rights and respect and what-not. Without their infantile tantrums, Zionism would be long dead and buried by now. It's them who keep it alive!

Any better definition for the word 'IDIOTS'?

David Singer has laid out his case for forcible occupation of other people’s land as “good” vs their resistance as “evil”. To try to justify this obscenely anti-moral stand he has focused on Hamas’s ridiculous claim in favour of one Moslem sect vs other ones, just as the vilest element of the wartime Germans (who have thankfully been largely cauterised out by utter and humiliating defeat) could focus on the evil of the NKVD to hypocritically decry resistance to Germany’s theft of others’ land. He even depicts acceptance that robbery is “good”, and resistance by the robbed “evil”, as being somehow “manly”.

His and others’ support for his racist “country” (and it sure ain’t Australia) is in full keeping with its modelling itself on the thieves’ mythical ancestors – see Deuteronomy 20:17 at http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/20-17.htm

The world has much reason to thank the Gazans for resisting the robbers, as the day the robbed of the world give up resisting robbery will be the end of decent civilisation.

I am usually loathed to make comparisons between what happens in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and what happened under German rule for obvious reasons. I deem it an insult to all those who lost their lives in extermination camps and to the tragedy that befell the Jewish people in Europe during the war.

But the continuing wholesale slaughter of innocents within Gaza has made observing such niceties almost an act of complicity and thus something I now refuse to do.

I was struck by a parallel made by British MP James Galloway between what is happening in Gaza and the Warsaw Uprising of 1943;

“What else is Gaza but a Warsaw Ghetto? When the people, the heroes, of the uprising of the Warsaw Ghetto, who decided they'd rather die on their feet, than live on their knees, desperate for food and water, rose up and tackled their besiegers – those who were keeping them in that Warsaw Ghetto – they were rightly hailed and are remembered in history as freedom fighters, as heroes. Yet the Palestinians, when they rise up out of their Warsaw Ghetto, are called terrorists in your country, and in my country, never mind in the country that is doing the besieging,”

Quoting from Wikipedia;

“Hanna Krall, who interviewed the only surviving uprising commander, Marek Edelman (from the left-wing Jewish Combat Organization, &#379;ydowska Organizacja Bojowa, &#379;OB), stated that the &#379;OB had 220 fighters and each was armed with a handgun, grenades, and Molotov cocktails. His organization had three rifles in each area, as well as two land mines and one submachine gun in the whole Ghetto. The insurgents had little ammunition; more weapons were supplied throughout the uprising, and some were captured from the Germans. Some weapons were handmade by the resistance; sometimes such weapons worked, other times they jammed repeatedly.”

Note the different militia, the hand made weapons, the lack of decent armaments to match the enemy.

Cont..

Further on Nazi comparisons. It is pretty clear that HAMAS have studied Joseph Goebbels very closely!

And I was going to compare Steele with Goebbels too, but on second thoughts Steele is more in the class of Lord Haw Haw : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw

Lord Haw Haw spoke squarely for the robbers
So does SPQR

SteeleRedux has spoken squarely for the robbed, in particular for the breathtaking bravery of those who resisted the well-armed German murderers in the Warsaw Ghetto

That's why SPQR, not SteeleRedux, is comparable to Lord Haw Haw. Indeed SPQR's commenting history is Lord Haw Haw down to a T, bearing in mind that the execution of Lord Haw Haw as a traitor to Britain was mistaken as he had renounced British nationality. He should have been hanged as a German peddling Germany's war aims.

singer wrote

"You obviously cannot distinguish between murder and self defence."

No singer it is you and israel that does not understand the difference between murder and self defence.
Self defense only allows for actions proportionate to the threat. Self defence is only allowed against those that actually pose a threat. So tell me singer what threat did the gaza power station pose to israel? The hospitals and schools you have bombed, what threat were they? What threat were the 1000+ civilians posing to israel?

To quote Is Mise
"If the boy next door keeps throwing stones at my windows then is it surprising that he gets a kick in the arse?"
That would be fair enough.

It would be murderous, illegal and immoral to get a shotgun and go next door and kill the boy and the rest of his family and then burn his house to the ground. But that is what israel does.

That is the difference between murder and self defense singer. Not get primitive home made missiles fired at you, which rarely hit anything and defend yourself by obliterating gaza and so far 1000+ civilians and children. Where is the proportionality there?

Like I said before this has nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing to do with self defense. It is part of israels despicable plan of ethnic cleansing, genocide and crimes against humanity in their quest to reclaim all the land west of the Jordan.

To all you Jew haters out there

View this video

http://youtu.be/aWkjwfkh-qM

If you believe a mosque can be used to store weapons and be an entry point to the vast network of tunnels constructed under this mosque - then there is little point in discussing what Israel is doing in exercising its inherent right of self defence to end the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israeli civilian population centres and the destruction of these tunnels many of which extend into Israel's sovereign territory and were clearly intended to wreak havoc on Israeli civilians.

This video will no doubt be the first of many that will ultimately be released showing the inhumane and barbaric conduct being perpetrated by Hamas in conducting its war of terror against Israel from residential areas and in mosques, schools, hospitals and UN facilities -that is impacting so disastrously on the Gazan civilian population and could have had equally devastating effect on Israel's civilian population.

A miracle really did occur when Hamas rejected the Egyptian brokered ceasefire on 16 July - which resulted in Israel invading Gaza on the ground and discovering the extensive network of tunnels coming out on Israeli soil that had been prepared for an apparently planned raid into Israel on the second holiest day of the Jewish calendar -Jewish New Year - in about seven weeks time.

It certainly was a disastrous decision for Gazan civilians who have seen their death toll rise from 135 to 852 as at 31 July - according to UN statistics.

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/humanitarian_Snapshot_31July2014_oPt_V2.pdf

Islamic treachery of this kind previously occurred in 1973 on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar - Yom Kippur..

The real story of this latest war is yet to be told when the dust finally settles and the extent to which Gazan civilians, their homes, mosques, hospitals and schools have been held hostage to be used by their Hamas captors to prosecute its war against Israel is finally revealed.

Those of you who have rushed to judgement without being in possession of all the facts should hang your heads in shame.

Dear David Singer,

Propagating IDF lies here does you no service, particularly when Jewish media is already dismantling them. The tunnels were not a surprise.

“Anyway, Barnea is already moving on to the latest — um, questionable assertion, namely that Israel was surprised by the tunnels, or the extent of the tunnels, and therefore had to ratchet up its Protective Edge campaign unexpectedly at the last minute. Barnea argues, in the third section of this article, that the government had a very clear picture of the tunnels and their extent a long time ago but decided not to act on them because it had other things on its plate. He’s pretty scathing about the current “gap between rhetoric and reality,” as he puts it. Worth a read.”

“Elsewhere in the Friday supplement, Yediot’s indispensable military analyst Alex Fishman writes that the army began facing the Gaza tunnel problem as early as 2001, and the government’s failure to act on them was the topic of a report by the government comptroller in 2007. … Other sources report that pressure is already building in Israel for a postwar commission of inquiry into the failure to act earlier on the tunnels.”
http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/202855/israels-latest-fib-gaza-tunnels-were-surprise/?#ixzz39HrduTO5

And you can park this rot as well;

“prepared for an apparently planned raid into Israel on the second holiest day of the Jewish calendar -Jewish New Year - in about seven weeks time.”

Please don't expect us to believe that Hamas had been building these tunnels over the last 7 years specifically to attack this Jewish New Year, especially given their moves to reconcile with Fatah which so infuriated the Israeli government. Utterly absurd.

As to weapons being found in a mosque it reminds me of another time when those striving for nationhood employed just such tactics.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb1_1191106989

Will you condemn this as 'inhumane and barbaric conduct' as well?

While I agree with the drift of what SteeleRedux has written I would like to reaffirm that conduct by invaders stealing territory from its native inhabitants by armed violent ethnic cleansing is by definition barbaric whereas actions of a Resistance movement against occupiers is rarely barbaric provided it is directed specifically against the occupiers.

Having just read Robert Harris' description of the relentless persecution of Albert Dreyfus and the cultural background behind it I am reminded, without even having to recall the German/Ukrainian Holocaust, of what the term "Jew hater" really means and can only express contempt for its misuse by the likes of the at most part Australian David Singer who doesn't reckon Australia can be a Jew's true homeland.

(The Dreyfus story also lends some force to Marat's claim that many more aristocratic and clerical heads needed lopping in the French Revolution though it would have been better to spare their lives and dump them on Devil's Island.)

#SteeleRedux

"Propagating IDF lies" is now your mantra .

Is the entry shaft to a tunnel from the basement of the mosque shown in this video a lie?

http://youtu.be/aWkjwfkh-qM

Are the weapons shown stored in the mosque on the video a lie?

Is the admission by UN officials of the concealment of weapons in three UN schools a lie?

Are the tunnel exits leading into Israel from which a number of entries into Israel in the past two weeks took place a lie?

Are these videos of tunnels and booby trapped buildings being destroyed a lie?

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/idf-destroys-tunnels-all-over-gaza?omhide=true&utm_source=MadMimi&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Israel+Breaking+News+Video%3A+IDF+to+continue+in+Gaza+%27For+as+Long+as+Necessary%27&utm_campaign=20140802_m121582404_8%2F2+Israel+Breaking+News+Video%3A+IDF+to+continue+in+Gaza+%27For+as+Long+as+Necessary%27&utm_term=IDFtunnels_png_3F1407006068

Is the detonation of a booby trapped UN health clinic by explosives concealed within its walls a lie?

Those who play with fire are sure to get their fingers badly burnt - if not amputated.

Hamas is an evil organisation. It is your perfect choice to support it.

Hamas's name as an acronym = Hides Among Mosques And Schools - which aptly sums up its cowardly approach to the way it chooses to wage war and put Gaza's civilian population in extreme danger of being killed or wounded

What Netanyahu - and the Defence and Intelligence establishment - knew or did not know will be no doubt the subject of a far ranging Commission in Israel. Those making highly damaging claims like Goldberg and Barnea will have ample opportunity to present their evidence.

I doubt a similar Commission will be held in Gaza to find out why tunnels were built to enable terrorists to wage war against Israel but no air raid shelters were built to protect Gazans when it was known that Israel would inevitably retaliate - or what punitive threats were placed on the population to allow their houses to be used conceal entry and exit points from the tunnels.

Continue to be judge jury and prosecutor if you wish.

The lynch mob is truly well alive and kicking on OLO.

The entire Middle East is a tapestry of many, many ethnic and religious groups, with histories going back many thousands of years. There is nothing out of the ordinary about Jewish people living there, as they have done alongside many other groups.

While I don't support the establishment of new settlements in the West Bank - that seems quite provocative - I also most certainly don't support the extermination of any group, which is what Hamas (and their Iranian supporters: Sunni-Shia, go figure) quite explicitly aim for. Hence the inability of Hamas to ever contemplate a permanent cease-fire.

But what do they expect ? If they keep firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel, then Israel has, as it were, a double right to defend themselves, from the aim of extermination in the long-term AND from rocket attacks in the short-term.

So it goes: Israel announces a cease-fire, Hamas breaks it, Israel resumes bombardment. Israel announces a cease-fire, Hamas breaks it, Israel resumes bombardment. What's wrong with this picture ?

Sooner or later, the representatives of the Palestinians have to recognise the right of Israel to exist. That will require the neutralisation and marginalisation of groups which seek the physical extermination of Jews, and of Israel,, such as Hamas.

Joe

'SteeleRedux

I take extreme care to ensure there are no factual errors in my articles and interestingly note yours is the first ever claim
that I have ever received.'

that is a lie David Singer.

You know full well I have challenged your veracity on more than one occasion.

It is the reason you claim when use when you respond to my posts telling us all you refuse to respond to my posts because I call you a liar.

David you as airy fairy in your beliefs as the openly conflicted Vic.

This is an essay by Canadian Jewish writer Gabor Mate. There have been many exemplary Jewish voices condemning the slaughter in Gaza but none so closely aligned to what I have been trying to say on the various threads and with far more eloquence that I could ever hope to muster. It is worthy of being reproduced here in its entirety.

Quote;

As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?”

It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.

In Israel-Palestine the powerful party has succeeded in painting itself as the victim, while the ones being killed and maimed become the perpetrators. “They don’t care about life,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says, abetted by the Obamas and Harpers of this world, “we do.” Netanyahu, you who with surgical precision slaughter innocents, the young and the old, you who have cruelly blockaded Gaza for years, starving it of necessities, you who deprive Palestinians of more and more of their land, their water, their crops, their trees — you care about life?

There is no understanding Gaza out of context — Hamas rockets or unjustifiable terrorist attacks on civilians — and that context is the longest ongoing ethnic cleansing operation in the recent and present centuries, the ongoing attempt to destroy Palestinian nationhood.

Cont...

Cont...

The Palestinians use tunnels? So did my heroes, the poorly armed fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto. Unlike Israel, Palestinians lack Apache helicopters, guided drones, jet fighters with bombs, laser-guided artillery. Out of impotent defiance, they fire inept rockets, causing terror for innocent Israelis but rarely physical harm. With such a gross imbalance of power, there is no equivalence of culpability.

Israel wants peace? Perhaps, but as the veteran Israeli journalist Gideon Levy has pointed out, it does not want a just peace. Occupation and creeping annexation, an inhumane blockade, the destruction of olive groves, the arbitrary imprisonment of thousands, torture, daily humiliation of civilians, house demolitions: these are not policies compatible with any desire for a just peace. In Tel Aviv Gideon Levy now moves around with a bodyguard, the price of speaking the truth.

I have visited Gaza and the West Bank. I saw multi-generational Palestinian families weeping in hospitals around the bedsides of their wounded, at the graves of their dead. These are not people who do not care about life. They are like us — Canadians, Jews, like anyone: they celebrate life, family, work, education, food, peace, joy. And they are capable of hatred, they can harbour vengeance in the hearts, just like we can.

One could debate details, historical and current, back and forth. Since my days as a young Zionist and, later, as a member of Jews for a Just Peace, I have often done so. I used to believe that if people knew the facts, they would open to the truth. That, too, was naïve. This issue is far too charged with emotion. As the spiritual teacher Eckhart Tolle has pointed out, the accumulated mutual pain in the Middle East is so acute, “a significant part of the population finds itself forced to act it out in an endless cycle of perpetration and retribution.”

“People’s leaders have been misleaders, so they that are led have been confused,” in the words of the prophet Jeremiah. The voices of justice and sanity are not heeded. Netanyahu has his reasons. Harper and Obama have theirs.

Cont...

Cont...

And what shall we do, we ordinary people? I pray we can listen to our hearts. My heart tells me that “never again” is not a tribal slogan, that the murder of my grandparents in Auschwitz does not justify the ongoing dispossession of Palestinians, that justice, truth, peace are not tribal prerogatives. That Israel’s “right to defend itself,” unarguable in principle, does not validate mass killing.

A few days ago I met with one of my dearest friends, a comrade from Zionist days and now professor emeritus at an Israeli university. We spoke of everything but the daily savagery depicted on our TV screens. We both feared the rancour that would arise.

But, I want to say to my friend, can we not be sad together at what that beautiful old dream of Jewish redemption has come to? Can we not grieve the death of innocents? I am sad these days. Can we not at least mourn together?

End quote.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/07/22/beautiful_dream_of_israel_has_become_a_nightmare.html

May your God bless your pen my friend and may it shame those who would celebrate the sword, the missile, the lazer guided bomb, the tank shell, the artillery round, and the phosphorous bomb.

#SteeleRedux

Having concluded your Jew hating rant over three posts - will you now respond to the following:

"Propagating IDF lies" is now your mantra .

Is the entry shaft to a tunnel from the basement of the mosque shown in this video a lie?

http://youtu.be/aWkjwfkh-qM

Are the weapons shown stored in the mosque on the video a lie?

Is the admission by UN officials of the concealment of weapons in three UN schools a lie?

Are the tunnel exits leading into Israel from which a number of entries into Israel in the past two weeks took place a lie?

Are these videos of tunnels and booby trapped buildings being destroyed a lie?

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/idf-destroys-tunnels-all-over-gaza?omhide=true&utm_source=MadMimi&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Israel+Breaking+News+Video%3A+IDF+to+continue+in+Gaza+%27For+as+Long+as+Necessary%27&utm_campaign=20140802_m121582404_8%2F2+Israel+Breaking+News+Video%3A+IDF+to+continue+in+Gaza+%27For+as+Long+as+Necessary%27&utm_term=IDFtunnels_png_3F1407006068

Is the detonation of a booby trapped UN health clinic by explosives concealed within its walls a lie?

Those who play with fire are sure to get their fingers badly burnt - if not amputated.

Hamas is an evil organisation. It is your perfect choice to support it.

Hamas's name as an acronym = Hides Among Mosques And Schools - which aptly sums up its cowardly approach to the way it chooses to wage war and put Gaza's civilian population in extreme danger of being killed or wounded

What Netanyahu - and the Defence and Intelligence establishment - knew or did not know will be no doubt the subject of a far ranging Commission in Israel. Those making highly damaging claims like Goldberg and Barnea will have ample opportunity to present their evidence.

I doubt a similar Commission will be held in Gaza to find out why tunnels were built to enable terrorists to wage war against Israel but no air raid shelters were built to protect Gazans when it was known that Israel would inevitably retaliate - or what punitive threats were placed on the population to allow their houses to be used conceal entry and exit points from the tunnels.

Continue to be judge jury and prosecutor if you wish.

The lynch mob is truly well alive and kicking on OLO.?"

Dear David Singer,

I am going, just for a moment at least, put the slanging match aside and ask that you reflect on what you have just written.

My three posts were not my own words but that of a respected Jewish Canadian writer. I found them to be deeply powerful and so symbolic of the contributions made by other great Jewish writers who have managed to bring clarity and direction to troubled times throughout the ages whether it be in the holy books of Judaic based religions or in the works of the likes of Marx, Spinoza, Maimonides and Kafka.

You saw them as a 'Jew hating rant'.

It is a terribly sad indictment on just how must your soul have been eviscerated by hate for you to have come to that conclusion. Gabor Mate is not unaffected by Jewish nationalism but able to see that “With such a gross imbalance of power, there is no equivalence of culpability.” He does not attempt to defend the indefensible but is true to a sense of justice and humanity that seems to have deserted you so long ago. It is exactly that sense of justice and humanity that I, and I suspect many others, believe owes so much to a uniquely Jewish legacy.

So I will go on challenging your jaundiced pontifications and protestations of victim hood because I feel duty bound to do so since the views of those like Gabor Mate are worth defending and it is my honour to do so. But it is hate filled people like yourself that make in one of the least pleasant tasks I have ever committed myself to doing.

I will address your other matters in another post.

#SteeleRedux

Gabor Mate does not believe in the right of the Jewish people to have their own State.
http://www.connexions.org/CxLibrary/Docs/CX5262-ZionismDividesUs.htm

You endorse Mate's views so I can only assume you are also opposed to a Jewish State. Is that right?

Gabor Mate's views would be applauded by Hamas - which declares in Article 11 of its Charter:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?"

To achieve this absolutist objective - Hamas declares in Article 13 of the Charter:

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."

Hamas is uncompromising, unrelenting and determined to see the elimination of the Jewish State currently home for 6.3 million Jews and 1.2 million Arabs - and Gabor Mate walks along proudly with these evil plotters of Jihad to attain their objective.

"Gross imbalance of power" is a false furphy. "Gross imbalance of death over life" is the issue - Good triumphing over Evil or wholesale slaughter of Jews if Good fails to triumph is the outcome.

Look at what is happening to the ancient Christian communities in Syria and Iraq right now by Jihadists before your very eyes.

You claim Gabor Mate " is not unaffected by Jewish nationalism"

Where do you get that idea from? He wants to have no part of it.

Dear David Singer,

The Hamas declaration could just as easily be written as;

'The Zionist Movement believes that the land of Palestine is now a Jewish state called Israel consecrated for future Jewish generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single country nor all countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization such as the UN nor all of them, be they Eastern or Western, possess the right to do that. Palestine is now the Jewish State of Israel land consecrated for Jewish generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Jewish generations till Judgement Day?'

You tell me the difference.

And this;

“"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."

Which to all intents and purposes could read;

'"There is no solution for the securing as much of the land of Palestine as part of a Jewish state except through occupation, blockade, subjugation, torture, kidnap, and wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Israeli people know better than to consent to having their future grabs, settler rights and fate toyed with. We do not care what the world thinks of our actions'

So Mr Singer who do you walk with? Do you not 'walk along proudly with these evil plotters of expansionists to attain their objective'. Do you not defend them even though their objective to to strive for war not peace, to keep Hamas and Fatah from coming together, to slaughter children with little to no compunction or remorse. The sheer number of dead and maimed speak to a truth, that you Mr Singer walk with mass murderers. Are you not evil?

Very good point, Steeleredux.

So if both sides are equally guilty of wanting a monocultural state, then the issue for me comes down to, which side do I prefer?

I prefer the Jews. The reason is, because the Jews are the smartest and the most persecuted people on the planet. I realise that they need a country of their own to keep themselves safe. And, one of their chief persecutors are the Muslims, who already own 99% of the land in the Middle East.

But despite owning almost all the land, the Muslims are completely dysfunctional. It doesn't matter if they have fertile regions such as the Nile or the Tigris Euphrates river systems. It doesn't matter if the hold most of the world's archaeological treasures, or that most of them are floating on crude oil. Their culture is as bankrupt as their economies.

And here in the West, the jews are noted for their law abiding behaviour which compares very favourably with the appalling behaviour of Muslims. Jews are noted for the financial independence in the west, while Muslims are noted for their financial dependency. Muslims put bombs in airliners, Jews do not. Muslims blow up western trains and buses, Jews do not.

So, my vote goes to the Jews. They have just as much right to ethnically cleans Muslims from Israel as the Muslims have to ethnically cleanse Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and even their own competing factions, from theirs.

I tend to like intelligent people, especially soldiers who fight smart. I think most of the world's problems are caused by people of low intelligence. So, my sympathies go to a very intelligent race like the Jews who's homeland is surrounded by stupid psychotics. Those people could not run a lamington stall at the local school fete without fighting each other and causing trouble.