Daemon
You should tender your resignation from the QCCL forthwith.
You show scant understanding that civil liberties apply to everyone. Especially those civillians suffering at the hands of a power conducting an illegal blockade.

Why are you not carrying out a dialogue with the aggressor in that situation and calling for a fair go for the Gazans?
The thrust of your article is to support further subjucation of the Gazans to the will of the Jewish expansionism. You are in fact supporting a greater Israel and zionist ambitions.

That is utterly at odds with the aim of supporting civil liberties and an uttey disgraceful position for an advocate of human rights.

Where is your credibility when you are required to speak out in defence of indigenous people in Australia?

Publishing this article was ill advised.

This article was published under the authorship of Daemon Singer at the time of my posting.
I apologise to Daemon.

David Singers views are the usual propaganda rubbish and David in his refusal to even acknowlege, let alone criticise, Israeli war crimes shows his support for the killing of innocent kids.

Why is this article's header still showing Daemon Singer as the author, when it is David's work?

Why does the digging of a tunnel from Gaza to Occupied Palestine a big deal to Israelis? In no legal ir practical way did it ever threaten Israel and was never more than a token gesture.

Why is it that only one person in Australia, the one-eyed Mr David Singer, publicly supports the uncontrolled mayhem which Israel regularly inflicts on its neighbours?

If Israel truly desired peace, then it would not treat its neighbours so shabbily that there is no other realistic alternative but that extremist organisations such as the defunct PLO and, now, Fatah, will dominate their politics?

The answers to these questions lies in Israeli hands alone.

I am convinced that the only way for the bloodshed to cease is for both Israel and Palestine (by whatever name) to disappear and for these lands to be controlled be an external, strong, fair, humanitarian force, one where religion plays no part in the decision making and the rule of law prevails. Sadly, I cannot see that day coming.

No it can't; and it simply has to ignore those who essentially say, don't return fire or otherwise try to protect yourself.
If this were Mexico, attacking the US, it Mexico, would be wiped of the map.
However, Israel is not the US, and surrounded on virtually all sides by hostile/semi hostile forces!
Also it ought to offer those Hamas cowards, hiding behind human shields, an exchange; two sandbags for every human, they force to stand between them and those they attack daily, with unguided, indiscriminately killing missiles!
That said, Israel should destroy some of the tunnels and bobytrap the others.
Hamas leaders shouldn't be able to foment this sort of terrorism, and remain virtually free to hop across some border, to save their own skins, while those they incite, remain behind to do all the killing and dying, and for what?
All this can possibly achieve, is to delay any genuine peace accord, or the mythical two state solution, that ends all hostilities?
The problem for Israel and Palestine, these tiny hardcore activists, just want to kill or destroy Israel, and will do what they can to drag others into their conflict; with, look at the numbers the Israelis have killed.
One day some scientist somewhere, will discover a force field or some method of turning these weapons around, and straight back whence they came?
Should that occur, Hamas, would likely blame any and all casualties on Israel!
As they do now, including the human sandbags, (women and children) they force to stay behind!
The usual exits must be blocked off, and the action continued, until all the venomous Hamas snakes heads are lopped off!
And those who remain, will then be free to finally sheet the blame home to where it is deserved; those nutters, who continuously tormented and thoroughly aroused the sleeping Israeli lion!
Rhrosty.

@imajulianutter. Once again we agree! I really don't know why Graeme continues to publish this unvarnished Zionist propaganda. Singer is reputedly a lawyer, yet he shows a profound ignorance of international law. His claims, here and elsewhere, are beyond wrong, they are active disinformation.

Unfortunately, he seems to have adherents in the Australian government, current and past. Their stunning silence on the latest Israeli lawlessness and brutality is an eloquent comment in its own right.

<<"@imajulianutter. Once again we agree!" [says James]>>

Which should be very worrying indeed --please consult a medical professional about this condition.

Look, the author is a great writer.

For the author's Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs database see http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/PressRoom/Pages/default.aspx

Any lingering question as to whether or not Israel is a member-nation of the civilized world has now been resoundingly answered in the negative.

The chief terrorist in Gaza is Netanyahu,the people carrying out the terrorist acts are the IDF and the Israeli security services + the people like Singer and the Zionist organizations that back them.

Spqr that you see unity against the killing if innocent children snd tbe training of children to hate and kill their neighbours as a condition in need of professional help says volumes about your twisted sicko values or a singular sicko lack of them.

Keep up your posts they really are helping expose the Israelis as oppressors with sympathy to hateful zionist beliefs.

Here's is Israel's Daily Butcher's Bill* for the rape of Gaza:

Palestinians murdered: 572*

Israeli civilians murdered: 2

Israeli soldiers killed: 27

Israeli Army's Kill ratio: 20 to 1.

* The UN estimates 78% of Palestinian dead are civilian non-combatants.

For Daily Slaughter data see right-hand side-bar of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Protective_Edg

CORRECTION

The full string for the Slaughter by Israel (SBI) is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Protective_Edge

The other inspiration for Singer's "thoughts" is http://www.worldlikud.org.il/?page_id=36

Oh dear David Singer,

Back with the myopic blather of a fundamentalist again.

You claim; “Israel's decision to take the gloves off came after 1381 rockets had been indiscriminately fired from Gaza into Israeli population centres over a period of ten days”. Yet during that same period Israel had hit nearly twice as many targets within Gaza with terrible cost to civilian lives.

And now you are even posting Youtube links, hardly edifying stuff and they don't call it war porn for nothing. Careful of that keyboard my friend.

The first shows some Gazan resistance fighters coming ashore a couple of thousand meters from Gaza trying to flank the enemy amassed on its border. Oh you don't like that terminology? To you they are terrorist infiltrators but when IDF members kill scores of women and children what are we to call them? Is the IDF the only entity in this conflict given the right to invade?

So what proof do you have that these Gazans were terrorists? You don't. The IDF has been shown to be the least truthful of organisations time and time again. Has any of this been independently verified? No.

What you have served up to us for your pleasure and our viewing was the deaths of twenty odd human beings who were attempting to defend their people against a brutal invading force. You might get off on it but don't expect any civilised person to do the same.

Here is another brave individual, a young American Jew protesting Israel's actions.
http://youtu.be/Rf5zY3j_bnM

And here is another who is horrified at the death and destruction;

“Al Jazeera's Gaza correspondent Wael Al-Dahdouh walked off camera on Sunday while reporting on the dozens of people killed and thousands of Shijaiyah residents forced to flee their homes as Israeli aircraft continued to target the area.”
http://youtu.be/5crro8BaxLg

They put you to shame.

Of course Al Jazera will soon be kicked out. “All the large media networks operate in Israel. Many of them do not broadcast what may be termed Zionist propaganda” Many do.
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/PressRoom/2014/Pages/FM-Liberman-meets-with-Rwandan-FM-Mushikiwabo-in-Jerusalem-21-July-2014.aspx

Zionists and anti-Zionists play football against each other - but the ball are the ordinary Israeli citizens, kicked around by both.

Israelis are attacked with rockets and attack-tunnels, so they must do what they do to protect their families. It's not an ideology - it's a necessity!

Even then, Jews like David Singer who are not personally under fire, use this tragedy as an opportunity to promote their expansionist ideas. At the same time, those who respond against him do so out of irrelevant global agendas, mainly driven by anti-American sentiments, which even if justified have nothing to do with the actual acute situation.

Neither cares for ordinary Israelis that come under fire.

yutusu

I post out of horror. No other agenda.

heck out singer's agenda then judge our behaviours.
I wonder at your agenda. Is it appeasement?

Dear Imajulianutter,

<<I wonder at your agenda. Is it appeasement?>>

My agenda is simple - that my family in Israel be safe.

I'm not interested in politics, I couldn't care less why Israel exists or whether it's right or wrong: the fact is that it's there in the midst of very hostile people, the fact is that my family lives there - and if Israel is not strong enough then my family would be in big trouble.

Quote:
...unity against the killing if innocent children snd tbe training of children to hate and kill their neighbours...."

Isn't that exactly what virtually the entire Muslim world is doing to Israel?
It's OK for them to do that, but not the Israeli's?

Rhrosty

I've always thought you were one of the more reasonable of the OLO posters. I'm pretty shocked and disappointed at your comment here, but that's MY problem, I guess. (I even considered for a moment that your post was being ironic.)

All this human shields business is a propaganda furphy, to justify legitimised terror/psychological warfare against civilians. It was used by the Americans in Vietnam and by the British in Ireland and Malaya and virtually every other country they invaded and colonised. And where is the military arm of Hamas supposed to operate from in the most densely populated area on earth which has been rightly compared to an open-air prison?

Fighting back against a ruthless oppressor/occupier is human nature, even when the odds are stacked against you. If you eliminate Hamas, another force will take its place. You also seem unaware that Hamas also provides massive social and financial support to the people of Gaza, which is the reason the Gazan population democratically elected them. It was the Washington consensus that declared Hamas a terrorist organisation, not the Gazans.

I suggest you stick to posting about tax reform, and leave the Middle East to people who know what they're talking about.

#JohnBennetts

You state:
"Why does the digging of a tunnel from Gaza to Occupied Palestine a big deal to Israelis?"

My comments:

1. It is not one tunnel but a network of tunnels designed to enable Hamas terrorists to enter Israel and kill and massacre civilians. Well designed and reinforced with concrete supposedly sent to Gaza from Israel to build houses - these tunnels will hopefully be destroyed along with the Hamas terrorists who built them to kill as many Jews as they could.

2. If you consider Israel is Occupied Palestine does that mean you believe the Jewish State has no right to exist?

Hamas has that view - which is the core of the conflict.

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day."

No mention of Jews or Christians. Just one religion - Islam - to reign supreme in the land holy to three religions.

How do you see there ever being any peace agreement between Hamas and the State of Israel when Hamas speaks like this and pounds Israel with 2000 rockets during the past two weeks indiscriminately fired into Israeli population centers - indisputably and universally agreed as constituting war crimes?

You propose a solution but in the same breath confess that "Sadly, I cannot see that day coming."

Put up or shut up.

Bruce

'Isn't that exactly what virtually the entire Muslim world is doing to Israel?'

And what are Israel's supporters, i.e. the Washington consensus, doing to the Muslim world? Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Iran, Syria? Even those Muslim countries who side with USNATO for survival have to be very, very careful that they don't put the needs of their populations ahead of USNATO geo-politics, or they'll be bombed into submission as well.

Yuyutsu

Yes, Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place - and your family with it. But its problems pale in comparison to the slow genocide it is inflicting on the Palestinians. I should feel sorry for them (Israelis) - and there was a time I did. That time has long passed.

The rest of the world population, as opposed to its US-NATO puppet governments, are getting sickened beyond belief at how Israel has corrupted both itself and the very meaning of 'self-defence'.

#Rhrosty

Your viewpoint perfectly sums up the following barbaric conduct of the Hamas terrorists:
1. Firing rockets indiscriminately into Israeli civilian centres,
2. Hiding their rockets in mosques,schools hospitals and houses,
3. Urging Gazans to go on the roofs of their houses to act as human shields to prevent the bombing of houses concealing weapons and entrances to tunnels and
4. Stopping people leaving their homes to seek safety after they have been warned by Israel to leave
5. Failing to accept the ceasefire offered a week ago which would have spared hundreds of Gazans from dying or being wounded as the conflict escalated

This is the kind of conduct OLO contributors seem to to be wholeheartedly supporting.

I don't and condemn it in the strongest possible terms.

#James O'Neill

What international law are you referring to?

Point out what you consider to be "active disinformation" published by me.

Yes I do have persons who share similar views in Australian Governments past and present - and also many Governments around the world who understand that the indiscriminate firing of rockets into civilian population centers cannot be tolerated by any State.

Holding a population to scrambling for air raid shelters many times a day is something no Government would or should be prepared to tolerate.

That you, #halduell, #John Ryan and #imajulianutter condone such criminal conduct is a disgrace.

#plantaganet

Can you explain why the Hamas killed and wounded are not separated out in the statistics?

Surely it is easy to identify people armed with guns, rocket launchers anesthetics, knives and explosive belts from ordinary Gazans.

And that wonderful statement - "The UN estimates 78% of Palestinian dead are civilian non-combatants."

Just count the terrorists and give the figures. My suspicion is their numbers are far higher

#SteeleRedux

You state:

"You claim; “Israel's decision to take the gloves off came after 1381 rockets had been indiscriminately fired from Gaza into Israeli population centres over a period of ten days”. Yet during that same period Israel had hit nearly twice as many targets within Gaza with terrible cost to civilian lives."

Guess you have never heard of or read Article 51 of the UN Charter:

"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security."

No country anywhere would tolerate 1381 rockets being fired indiscriminately into its civilian population centers and not act in self defence to put an end to such criminal and inhumane conduct.

Hamas wants the Jews out of former Palestine so a battle to the death it will have to be - if not this time then the next time or the next time.

Is that your wish too?

Two attempts - one by a tunnel and another by sea - to cross into Israeli sovereign territory by "terrorists" (my term) armed to the teeth - captured on video - were thankfully thwarted.

What did these "Gazans" (your term) have in mind for the men women and children if they had managed to get into Kibbutz Sufa?

Perhaps we can agree on a common term - "murderers"

Is that OK with you?

David murdering civilians and stealing their land is not legal by any perversion of the law. Zionists seem to have the same notions of superiority as the Nazis.

david singer

There is no reason to start a pogrom against Gazans.

Killarney,

"All this human shields business is a propaganda furphy"

It's only furphy if you choose to close your eyes to the mounting evidence. There have been countless of interviews and speeches by Hamas members where they specifically call on their civilians to act as human shields. And let's not forget about using a school to shield a stash of rockets. Do I really need to post the links to all this? It's all out there, all you need to do is Google.

"Fighting back against a ruthless oppressor/occupier is human nature"

Did you forget that Israel left Gaza nearly a decade ago? It has not been occupying Gaza since 2005. Do I need to post evidence of that here too?

As you correctly point out, the Gazan population democratically elected Hamas. Germany also elected Hitler in a democratic process in 1933. Hamas proceeded to violently eliminate the opposition following the election. So did the German National Socialists. Gaza might have elected Hamas, but they have no way of replacing them now. There is no way of knowing whether Hamas still have the support of the population. The democratic experiment in Gaza has reached a sad ending. And by the way, Hamas do not provide a "massive...financial support to the people of Gaza". That support comes mainly from those "Washington consensus" countries that you deplore so much. That includes you and me.

Regarding "Israel's supporters" who are allegedly bombing Muslim countries "into submission". There really is no need to bomb these countries into submission, they do an excellent job themselves. Sunnis fighting Shias in Iraq, civil war in Syria, massacres in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and countless other Muslim countries I'm sure I forgot to mention. Undoubtedly you lay the blame for all the ills of the Muslim world squarely on the shoulders of Israel and its supporters.

As for the "genocide it [Israel] is inflicting on the Palestinians", are you aware that the Palestinian population in Gaza increased around 20 times since 1949? Maybe you should look up the meaning of 'genocide' again.

Dear David,

There might well be a few die-hards and the wilfully ignorant that will swallow what you are selling but they are getting fewer in number.

You contended that there had been 1381 rockets fired from Gaza since the 8th of July and that as a consequence Israel had to respond. The problem is that they had been already responding to an apparent abduction of the three Israeli teenagers in occupied Palestine. The authorities knew however they were dealing with a brutal slaying but the government withheld that information because it suited their desire to act against Hamas for its temerity of making peace with Fatah. So the IDF took literally hundreds of prisoners, destroyed of damaged hundreds of homes, businesses and charities, shot dozens of Palestinians, and conducted bombing raid after bombing raid in Gaza and this was just in June.

As you put it 'No country anywhere would tolerate so much bombing, shelling, kidnapping, wounding and killing of its citizens and not act in self defence to put an end to such criminal and inhumane conduct.'

And while these 1381 inaccurate rockets were being fired the IDF hit over 2,500 targets inside Gaza with munitions far more lethal than anything the Gazans could retaliate with.

Yet again the government of Israel used the tragic deaths of its citizens to engage in wholesale slaughter, to give licence to predetermined agendas, to force divisions within the Palestinian people, to consciously step away from peace and to expand its occupation. It is cynical, brutal and evil.

Murderers is indeed a just word for those who would kill civilians including women and children. Who says the target of the resistance fighters who came ashore was anything other than military in nature? What is known for sure is the toll of civilian lives directly attributable to the IDF and murderers is certainly an apt description.

There are no saints in either side of this conflict but one is continuing a brutal occupation it seemingly has no intention of ending. It is here that the first steps must be made.

Avw

I’m not going create a very long post by responding to every point you made, as most of them have been well and truly debunked by many others. However, a few selective points…

‘Did you forget that Israel left Gaza nearly a decade ago? It has not been occupying Gaza since 2005.’

Left what?? Gaza is a totally fenced/guarded/checkpointed/watchtowered/walled ghetto. It has virtually no existence other than that of an open-air prison. Get real.

‘Germany also elected Hitler in a democratic process in 1933.’

No, it didn’t. Do some reading.

‘There really is no need to bomb these countries into submission, they do an excellent job themselves.’

Scratch the surface of any of those conflicts and you will find that ‘job’ to be USNATO standard-issue imperial war by proxy. Pick a country, find the cultural fault lines, then destabilise it, then arm militias, then watch the country tear itself apart with a civil war or coup. This has been going on since Roman times. Even a country like Australia, if subjected to the same process, would descend into civil war or revolution within a set time frame.

Well, I am on the side of Israel, because I really do not like Arabs or Muslims.

I think that Arabs and Muslims are responsible for most of the trouble in the world right now, and anyone who shoots back at them is alright by me. Given that the Arabs and Muslims seem to hate anybody who is not an Arab or a Muslim, (and even hate other Arabs and Muslims), how anyone can defend them is beyond me.

If the Palestinians don't want the Israelis dropping 155mm artillery shells on their cities, all they have to do is to refrain from shooting Grad rockets over the border into Israel. If they won't do that, then as far as I am concerned, the Israelis should make Gaza completely uninhabitable.

Spare me the crap about the women and children. The rule of thumb in war is, that if you target your enemies woman and children, your own might become fair game. My uncle Charlie was in Bomber Command in WW2, flying Lancasters over Germany. How many German women and kids he killed, God only knows.

Message to the Arab Muslims. Leave the Israelis alone. They have just as much right to ethnically cleanse Arabs and Muslims from their land, as you had to ethnically cleanse Jews and Christians from yours.

Killarney,

Most of my points have been debunked? Really? Which ones? You proved a complete lack of knowledge with the few points you did try to address.

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. That is a fact. The increased security measures came gradually after the pull-out in response to the violence (and by the way there is no "wall" around Gaza as you claim). In other words it was the Hamas violence that caused the increased restrictions by the Israelis, not the other way around, no matter how hard you try to make it appear that way. Note also that it is not only Israel that restricts movements across the border from Gaza. You should ask yourself why is Egypt also doing the same and reach some conclusions.

Are you saying that Hitler did not win the majority vote in democratic elections in Germany in 1933? And I’m the one who should be doing some reading?

What imperial war are you suggesting is fought in Iraq, where Sunni extremists (enemies of the "Washington consensus") are fighting Iranian proxies (also enemies of the "Washington consensus")? The only empire I can think that might be fuelling the flames there is Iran who has a direct interest in seeing one side prevailing. Or in Syria, where we have a similar scenario?

Avw

There is no point arguing with the 'Hamas started it' brigade, who are only slightly more tedious than LEGO's 'Muslims are the biggest threat to world peace' brigade.

Don't worry, Av. The Gaza slaughter will continue, because the Netan-Yahoo junta have big and powerful friends and lots of bombs to drop on defenceless people under siege, while pretending they are only dropping all these bombs on defenceless people under siege in order to defend themselves, even though they are neither defenceless nor under siege.

And we can always rely on the US Congress/Senate to pass some idiot resolution to favour Israel, and world leaders to rabbit on about some bicycle of violence, and for Obama (or whatever idiot president of the day is pretending to broker a peace deal in the ME) and that idiot BankyMoon clown will smile and nod on cue.

If it looks as if I'm resorting to ridicule because I don't feel like making rational arguments, it's because I AM. There is just so much disproportionate Israel humbug one can take, before deciding whether to laugh or cry over what is being done to Gaza with the full approval of the world's governments, but not the world's people.

And Hitler was NOT democratically elected. Whether you wish to do any reading about that is a matter of supreme indifference to me.

@ David Singer 9.40pm 22/7/14

You pose two questions to me: (1) Disinformation. This is defined by the OED as "false information which is intended to mislead, especially propaganda issued by a government organisation to a rival power or the media". I would say this is a good description of all your posts. As Plantagenet has pointed out you are not even original, but simply parrot the talking points of Israel's foreign Ministry. In short you are a shill.

(2) What international law. You purport to be a lawyer so the answer should be self-evident. To fully answer the point would take more words than OLO allows, but the following are a short sample of how Israel continually breaches international law:

(a) collective punishment of civilian populations
(b) targeting civilians with lethal strikes
(c ) targeting civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals
(d) occupying land of other nations; eg Lebanon, Syria
(e) occupying Palestinian territory
(f) building Jewish settlements on occupied land
(g) failing in your duties as an occupying power (manifold violations)
(h) defying rulings of the World Court
(i) rendition, torture and detention without trial
(j) assassination of civilians

This is far from an exhaustive list and even if you continue to deny the point others will recognise your denials for what they are.

We all know what you are. The only mystery is why Graeme persists in publishing your rubbish.

#plantaganet and #SteeleRedux

You both continue to ignore the one fundamental act being carried out in this current conflict which is an indisputable and internationally recognised war crime - the indiscriminate firing of rockets into civilian population centers - be they Israeli or Gazan or anywhere else in the world.

It is forbidden - period - no matter what the circumstances or supposed justification for doing so.

You need to come to grips with this international consensus and stop throwing up red herrings to try and justify the perpetration and continuation of this inhumane and outlawed conduct.

Hamas's rejection of the ceasefire brokered by Egypt -and accepted by Israel - would have stopped further rockets being fired into Israel.

The subsequent Israeli land invasion of Gaza to find and destroy those rockets has been expanded to include the network of tunnels being used to infiltrate Israel with possibly disastrous consequences had the terrorists who have come into Israel not been found and presumably killed.

There are now two recorded instances of this happening in the past two weeks.

Israel has the right to take such steps under Article 51 of the UN Charter.

This land invasion has now become a war which seems to have little prospect of being ended until all the terrorist groups operating in Gaza and their tunnels and armaments are destroyed.

There will be regrettably many more Gazan civilian wounded and killed since these terrorists and their tunnels and weapons are purposely stored in and under civilian population centers - another indisputable war crime.

Hamas was entitled to reject the ceasefire - but it is squarely to blame for the consequences that have followed and the suffering of Gaza's civilian population

@David Singer. In your latest response you say "Israel has the right to take such steps under Article 51 of the UN Charter."

Sadly, this is further evidence of your woeful ignorance of international law. Since 1967 Palestinian territory has been designated as occupied territory under international law. Israel is the occupier. A state cannot simultaneously exercise control over a territory and claim that any attacks from that territory are "foreign" a prerequisite for the invocation of Article 51 of the UN Charter.

As a lawyer you should well know the limits that can be exercised by an occupying power. The laws of armed conflict are set out in the Hague Regulations of 1907, the Four Geneva conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols I and II of 1977. The fact that since 1967 the state of Israel denies its obligations does not absolve them Even the Israeli High Court of Justice has rejected the Israeli government's view and has held that the Hague Regulations and the Geneva Conventions that pertain to customary international law are binding on Israel.

Your proposition was specifically rejected by the International Court of Justice in 2004.

Your views and that of the government of Israel are indistinguishable and both are wrong. May I respectfully suggest you refrain from referring to legal concepts of which you manifestly have no understanding.

Hey, Kilarney.
"Bruce

'Isn't that exactly what virtually the entire Muslim world is doing to Israel?'

And what are Israel's supporters, i.e. the Washington consensus, doing to the Muslim world? Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Iran, Syria? Even those Muslim countries who side with USNATO for survival have to be very, very careful that they don't put the needs of their populations ahead of USNATO geo-politics, or they'll be bombed into submission as well."

What has any of that to do with my point that tiny Israel faces unthinking and institutionalised condemnation and attacks from hundreds of millions of surrounding Muslims?
You appear to find a very complicated and propagandised international situation justifies the murder of Israelis, yet deny that those murders, and the constant harassment and vilification is no reason for Israel to be entitled to defend itself?
Hardly what I'd call a balanced outlook.

'There is no point arguing with the 'Hamas started it' brigade, who are only slightly more tedious than LEGO's 'Muslims are the biggest threat to world peace' brigade. '

you are right Killarney it is far more the fault of the idiotic lefist media and secular humanist who are in absolute denial as to what Islam stands for. Thankfully history has already been written and it is very clear who wins in the end. And it ain't the humanist or Islam.

Here is Israel's Daily Butcher's Bill* for the rape of Gaza:

Palestinians killed: 632*

Israeli civilians killed: 2

Israeli soldiers killed: 28

* The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs estimates at least 364 Palestinians were murdered civilian non-combatants.

For daily slaughter data see right-hand side-bar of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Protective_Edge

Zionists, the new National Socialists!

Those Australian citizens that return from serving as 'lone soldiers' for the Israeli government should be treated as those returning from serving with other terrorist organisations.

Despite real frustration with Netanyatu's overkill and the interesting status of Israeli-Australians who might serve in the IDF, expressions of equivalence with terrorist returnees to Australia or would-be home-growns are something else

Little but Israeli propaganda from Australian or US mainstream media but it is left to Jewish journals like Forward to give an informed, decent, truthful perspective.

Quote;

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately placed a gag order on the deaths. Journalists who heard rumors were told the Shin Bet wanted the gag order to aid the search. For public consumption, the official word was that Israel was “acting on the assumption that they’re alive.” It was, simply put, a lie.

Moti Almoz, as army spokesman, was in charge of repeating the lie. True, others backed him up, including Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon. But when the truth came out on July 1, Almoz bore the brunt of public derision. Critics said his credibility was shot. He’d only been spokesman since October, after a long career as a blunt-talking field commander with no media experience. Others felt professional frustration. His was personal.

Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren’t acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas’ Hebron branch — more a crime family than a clandestine organization — had a history of acting without the leaders’ knowledge, sometimes against their interests. Yet Netanyahu repeatedly insisted Hamas was responsible for the crime and would pay for it.

This put him in a ticklish position. His rhetoric raised expectations that after demolishing Hamas in the West Bank he would proceed to Gaza. Hamas in Gaza began preparing for it. The Israeli right — settler leaders, hardliners in his own party — began demanding it.
But Netanyahu had no such intention. The last attack on Gaza, the eight-day Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, targeted Hamas leaders and taught a sobering lesson. Hamas hadn’t fired a single rocket since, and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013. Neither side had any desire to end the détente. Besides, whatever might replace Hamas in Gaza could only be worse.

End quote.
http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all#ixzz38IGHVVHV

#James O'Neill

You continue to fail to point to any piece of "active disinformation" which you say is a good description of everything in my posts.

Put up or shut up.

It seems to be your practice to continue to make allegations without any facts to substantiate your claims when it comes to claimed breaches of international law..

Please specify any particular instance of any action committed by Israel which you claim is in breach of international law and I will be happy to discuss with you.

As you know there are usually different opinions as to what is and what isn't in breach of international law.

One issue on which there is no dispute is the indiscriminate firing of rockets into civilian population centers as has happened 2000 times in the last two weeks with rockets fired from Gaza into Israel.

Do you concede this constitutes 2000 war crimes?

You make the following claim:

"Your proposition was specifically rejected by the International Court of Justice in 2004."

Not sure what proposition you are referring to - but don't you know that advisory opinions of the International Court such as the 2004 decision are non-binding in international law?

To use your phrase:

"May I respectfully suggest you refrain from referring to legal concepts of which you manifestly have no understanding."

#plantaganet

Took the time to go to your figures and find you have been fudging a little.

These are what were actually recorded:

Gaza Health Ministry (22 July): 632 killed and 3,752 wounded[4]
UN OCHA (21 July): 479 killed (364 civilians, 76 militants, 39 unknown)[8]
IDF: 273 militants killed[9][10] and 20 captured[11]

OCHA show 479 killed as against 632 claimed by Gaza Health Ministry (GHM). Why did you conceal this discrepancy?

You then transpose 364 civilians killed from OCHA figures into the GHM figures which means there are 268 terrorists or unknown killed. Why did you conceal what you had done?

This number is very close to that claimed by Israel - 273 terrorists killed.

Giving GHM figures the benefit of the doubt on the numbers killed - 632 - when compared to OCHA figures - 479 - the percentage of terrorists killed is now 42%.

If one uses the OCHA figures - 479 - and the number of terrorists killed as claimed by Israel - 273 - then the percentage of terrorists killed is 57%.

The percentage of terrorists is set to rise as the terrorists are caught in the tunnels or try to escape from there or from houses where they have concealed themselves among civilians or attempt to infiltrate into Israel.

Hopefully civilian casualties will be kept to a minimum as the terrorists are smoked out of their hiding places.

I think the Israelis know how to count terrorists that have been killed. I do not think GHM and OCHA is interested in revealing the disaster that is being visited on Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating out of Gaza.

Please keep posting the figures - all the figures - and not just a selection of your choosing.

Killarney,

Your posts indeed resort to ridicule and fantasy, but above all they contain absolutely no substance. You are unable to respond to any of the flaws I pointed out in your posts. You creatively compose various claims, with no shred of evidence, some of them are just blatantly incorrect. I have no idea how you can repeatedly claim that the National Socialists in Germany were not democratically elected. All history books that I've read agree that they won the largest number of votes in 1933 by a huge margin. This allowed them to eventually dissolve the Reichstag and move to a single-party system. Maybe those special history books that you read claim the opposite, I'm not sure. I suggest you look at the following links before embarrassing yourself any further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_November_1933

You say that you "don't feel like making rational arguments"? Is that why all your arguments are irrational?

Plantagenet, the Israeli government is acting as a terrorist organisation so their participants should be treated with 'equivalence' to other terrorism participants.

David Singer, " indisputably and universally agreed as constituting war crimes" yep, Israel government, guilty

Dear Mr Singer,

Yes I suppose it is just language but let us attempt to put some logic behind it.

That logic would say those who are creating the most amount of terror and mayhem should rightly be afforded the title terrorists. The terror inflicted on the Palestinian people before and during this invasion is horrendous. Late night mass arrests, house demolitions, shootings, ransackings, beatings, deaths in the West Bank and wave after wave of missile, artillery shells, cannon fire into Gaza all designed as a collective punishment for an oppressed, mostly defenceless people.

So let us employ your language and tactics and examine those figures again.

On the terrorist's side;

32 terrorists, 2 civilians (though if they are on militarty age in Israel they would have been trained to kill Palestinians therefore one would have thought are legitimate targets) and 1 foreign worker killed; 150 terrorists and 28 civilians wounded; 1 terrorist missing.

On the side of those resisting occupation and oppression;

A Palestinian health official puts the casualties at 695 killed and 4,220 wounded. Those wounded will include hundreds if not thousands who are maimed for life suffering loss of limbs, loss of sight, gross disfigurement, permanent disabilities.

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights puts the figure at 663 killed (541 civilian and 122 resistance fighters). The PCHR is an independent organisation in Gaza run by award winning lawyer, and human rights activist Raji Sourani, member of International Commission of Jurists and Vice President of the International Federation of Human Rights. Some of the organisations who fund the centre are International commision of Jurists, Sweden Chapter, Ford Foundation USA, NOVIB Holland, Christian Aid UK, Dan Church Aid Denmark, European Commission, and Ireland Aid.

The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) put the figures at 599 killed (443 civilians, 87 resistance fighters, 69 unknown).

Cont..

Cont..

Even the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) (also known as Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center in honor of Meir Amit), which is an Israeli-based independent research group with close ties to the Israel Defense Forces and the American Jewish Congress puts the figures at 610 killed (230 civilians, 172 resistance fighters, 208 unknown). Why did you not include these figures David? What were you hiding?

Not one other source even came close to the figures touted by the terrorist organisation the IDF which has claimed 300 resistance fighters killed and 28 arrested.

David, as an ardent supporter of the terrorism being inflicted on the peoples of Gaza why shouldn't the rest of us condemn you in the strongest of terms and ask that you be investigated by the Australian authorities? Terrorism in all its guises needs to be confronted.

See mate, language cuts both ways.

Now I need you to focus your legal mind and tell me why the Israeli excuses for the horrendous civilian death toll could not be used by the Russian separatists who shot down the Malaysian airliner. 'It is a time of war and if you measure the civilian toll including those aboard the jet against those of the nearly 600 of the Ukrainian army we have killed or captured then those figures would compare most favourably with the toll in Gaza. We will of course endevour to keep the civilian deaths to a minimum but some are unavoidable.'

Good God Steel we agree. And I cannot find fault with your methodology, in fact I admire it.

Well done, mate.

Israeli Daily butcher's bill for the cleansing of Gaza (24 July Aus time):

Palestinians killed: 697*

Israeli and foreign civilians killed: 3

Israeli soldiers killed: 32

* Using the findings of The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA), Occupied Palestinian Territory, Gaza Emergency Situation Report, http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_sitrep_24_07_2014.pdf.pdf .

The UN OCHA estimates that of the 697 Palestinians killed:

- civilians: 518^

- unknowns: 71

- militants: 108

^ This includes 170 children and 86 women.

Dear SteeleRedux,

<<2 civilians (though if they are on militarty age in Israel they would have been trained to kill Palestinians therefore one would have thought are legitimate targets)>>

Well, one of those civilians was killed while delivering food to the soldiers that guarded the Erez border-crossing to Gaza. He was 37 y.o. and father of three. The crossing was active at the time with trucks supplying food, medicine and fuel to Gaza.

The other was a 32 y.o. Beduin Israeli Arab (a Muslim, one would argue a Palestinian). His house was hit by a rocket, which also severely wounded his baby-daughter and also wounded his 5-y.o. son and two women.

Anyway, here is your chance to be constructive - I am all ears to hear your advice to Israel:

What would you do differently had YOUR family been in this situation, had your own family been under attack by rockets and lived with the constant fear of extremely-hateful mass-murderers and kidnappers emerging from tunnels that could open up anywhere and at any time?

Here's something that Redux and co didn't mention:

"The media has obsessively counted every dead body in the conflict between Hamas and Israel. They rarely explain why so many more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed: Hamas does not allow Palestinian civilians into their shelters, while using civilian areas from which to fire their rockets; Israel, on the other hand, devotes its resources to building shelters and Iron Dome protection. Put another way, while Israel uses shelters and Iron Dome to protect its civilians, Hamas uses its civilians to protect its rockets and its terrorists. A widely circulated cartoon makes this point effectively:

Recently, supporters of Hamas have argued that to say that Hamas uses civilians as human shields is a manifestation of racism and an attempt to dehumanize Palestinians. But it is Hamas' own leaders who have long boasted of this tragic reality. Listen to Fathi Hammad, a Hamas member of the Palestinian Legislative Council[QUOTE]:

'For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.'"

Yutusu

I would have not indulged my desire to exterminate non Jewish inhabitants of the region. I would have recognised in the longer term my family is likely to suffer another of those regular progoms Jews have suffered for generations. I would recognise the next progom will be by the populations surrounding Israel that Israel has failed to accommodate and make peace with.

I'd help my family either to reform their religion or move from the region.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I understand you have family and friends in Israel and obviously feel fearful about their safety. I also personally know a Palestinian woman extremely worried about her family in Gaza.

I'm not expect either of you are going to take an even handed view so please do not take any part of this reply as an attempt to assuage your fears, that is not its purpose.

You wrote;

“Anyway, here is your chance to be constructive - I am all ears to hear your advice to Israel”.

Remove all of the illegal settlements from the West Bank and move purposefully and with proper intent to a homeland for the Palestinian people within the 67 borders.

You spoke of “constant fear of extremely-hateful mass-murderers and kidnappers”. The IDF is killing massive numbers of civilians and kidnapping (or 'administrative detention' to use the parlance of the occupiers).

The hate within the political and intellectual ranks of the Israeli establishment is also there to see. I offer the words of a university professor and a politician;

"The only thing that could deter a suicide bomber is knowing that if caught, his sister or his mother would be raped" - Middle East scholar Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israeli-professor-rape-hamas-militiants-mothers-sisters-deter-terrorist-attacks-1457836

Well raping is slightly better than killing them as proposed by Israeli politician Ayelet Shaked on her facebook page;

“They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists. They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists. … [The terrorists] are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”
http://www.facebook.com/shakedayelet

So we have 'extremely-hateful mass-murderers and kidnappers' on both sides.

@Steele,

<<So we have 'extremely-hateful mass-murderers and kidnappers' on both sides>>

How very decent and even handed of your Steele!

Now just to demonstrate your balance how about listing side by side how many lines of criticism you have leveled at the bad guys on the Israeli side vis-à-vis those on the Hamas side --just so we can see how balanced your are,eh?

@ imajulianutter,
<<I'd help my family either to reform their religion or move from the region>>

LOL that's why the bulk of the ME Jews migrated from their former Arab homelands to Israel --so you want them to move again?

Well sp

That was only one of my constructive suggestions.

Either of the other two would be better.

Ima...

<<That was only one of my constructive suggestions.>>

Well don't hold back tell us the rest of them - would really like to hear ALL of your constructive suggestions?

Dear Imajulianutter,

I am sadly aware that there are some Jews in Israel (and America) who desire to exterminate all non-Jews, but my family has nothing to do with them.

My family consider themselves atheists.
Are you suggesting that they should convert to Islam?
Being (unlike myself) very scientific minded, I suspect they will not be able to believe in Allah even if they tried very hard.

Perhaps your advice could be helpful if this allowed them to live in peace - but observing that region, are the Muslims there living in peace, even among themselves?

The other alternative you mentioned, I already suggested to them, offering Australia as refuge, but they refuse: it's their home, they were born there, they have their houses and farms, friends, language, culture, familiarity, schools, jobs, etc. They have no desire to be uprooted and wander the world as refugees, besides some are just too old to travel.

Meanwhile, unless you can offer other constructive suggestions, killing those who wish to kill them is probably the most practical option.

Dear SteeleRedux,

Thank you for the sympathy.

I also wish for those West Bank settlements to vanish, for those cruel acts by Israelis that are unnecessary to cease and for the Palestinians to have their homeland with the 1967 borders. However, other than praying, it's not something which I or my family can do anything about.

As far as I know, none of my family hates Arabs, but being under attack and afraid for their and their children's lives they just have to do what they do, shooting with tears in their eyes.

LEGO

You're not supposed to dislike Arabs, that's racist, and they can't help being Arabs.

Islam, on the other hand, should be fair game for any non-islamic intelligent person, as they are commanded in their holy books, and in their mosques, to put us all to the sword if we don't convert to Islam, or pay them tribute to be allowed to keep our heads. If we fail to back Israel, and the Muslims eventually do succeed in destroying Israel, the Islamic world will be encouraged to come after us next, as evidenced by the growing evidence of Islamic mayhem in Europe.

I thank God that Islam comes in two flavours, and that they hate each other even more than they hate us. Tony Abbott once remarked about the conflict in Syria, that we wouldn't get involved, as it was “baddies verses baddies”. The only way we should get involved is to keep arming both sides in Islam-on-Islam strife, but help the Jews, Christians, Hindus, and others fighting Islam.

We will eventually regret that we have allowed Islam to gain a foothold in the West.

Please keep posting, LEGO. I read articles by Peter Singer in the hope that I will find a response from you, it always “makes my day”.

Yustsu

Your comments are deplorable and you are maintaining a veneer of respectability to try to cover your support of atrocities and hatred.
Palestinians lived in peace until the Jewish dominated Israeli state caused the disruption in the region after the exit of the Turks, British and French.

You are utterly reprehensible in your pretended secularism. You reveal yourself as just another mid eastern demented religious bigoted nutjob and a liar.

When your innocent family suffer another progrom, don't come grizzling.

spqr

I stated the options available. Can't you read or is it a deficiency in comprehension you suffer.

The likely result of the current Israeli outbreak of terrorism is the removal of their illegal blockade of Gaza. A massive victory, in everybody view, for Hamas. How stupid are you blokes? Don't you understand that will ensure Hamas will continue to be representative of the Palestinians. The more violence you perpetrate the greater harm you do to yourselves. Look at how you are now bombing UN facilities as the UN tried to prevent that. That was a simple barbarism. We noticed, even though you people try to cloud it with your lies.

Ima...

<<I stated the options available. Can't you read or is it a deficiency in comprehension you suffer>>

So the civil Ima... didnt last long,eh!

Neither of those two were realistic. They amounted to convert to Islam or move out. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, hoping you had some more realistic proposals.

But reading on and seeing that you propose that if only Gaza was unimpeded (and no doubt heavily subsidized) everything would be just dandy and "the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion"--maybe I gave you far too much credit for for something you severely lack ...realism!

Like Gandhi in a nappy I skip through this increasingly heated thread.

Israeli Daily butcher's bill for the cleansing of Gaza - 25 July Aus time. Today I am using ITIC data^ which actually makes Israel look slightly less murderous.^

Palestinians killed: 674*

Israeli and 1 Thai civilian killed: 3

Israeli soldiers killed: 32

* Using the findings of Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC)^ http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/Data/articles/Art_20684/E_125_14_309748161.pdf

ITIC estimates that of the 674 Palestinians killed:

- civilians: 241

- unknowns: 229

- militants: 204

^ ITIC has close ties to the Israel Defense Forces and the American Jewish Congress

LOOKIE, LOOKIE –from the same source Pete is quoting his causality figures above from (this may go a loooooooooooooooong way towards explaining why there are so many “civilian” deaths)

1) Patrick Martin, Gaza Strip correspondent for the Canadian Globe and Mail, wrote that "...the IDF informed the two groups that it had accepted a request from the Red Crescent for a two-hour humanitarian truce to allow medics to evacuate the dead and injured from Shejaia...as journalists arrived at the scene in Shejaia Sunday afternoon, several men with guns were scurrying from the scene. Some bore their weapons openly, slung over their shoulder, but two, disguised as women, were seen walking off with weapons partly concealed under their robes. Another had his weapon wrapped in a blanket and held on his chest as if it were a baby"

Well, well, well, who would have thought those Hamashies would be so dastardly devious...certainly Pete and his investigative journalist team weren't the wake up!

Dear Imajulianutter,

I do not support atrocities and hatred.

I care not for Palestinians/Jews/Turks/British/French and all other nationalistic nonsense and historical stuff. This may be the playground of David Singer, but I've got nothing to do with it.

All I know is that:
1) My family was born where it was and has no other home.
2) There is a group of people who do not accept their living there (perhaps unless they converted to Islam, perhaps unless all women in my family were to undergo FGM, perhaps not even then).
3) This group of people are doing everything they can to see my family dead, including digging tunnels in order to emerge out of them with weapons and slaughter my family.
4) Fortunately, the Israeli army has now discovered those tunnels and is blowing them up, providing a reprieve to my family for a few more years. Hopefully they will continue doing so, giving my family more reprieves for many years to come.

Yes, it's a pity that this same Israeli army is also associated with Judaism and Zionism, but at this point in time this is the least of my worries - I want my family safe and well and if in order to achieve that we need to ally with the Zionist state, then so be it - I rather bear the stench and plug my nose because they have better weapons and therefore better chances of survival than anyone else in the Middle-East, also because the other side stinks even more.

Those people who would not allow my family to live in Israel, wouldn't allow you and your family to live in Australia either - if they only could. As yet, they don't have the power to send rockets on Australia, but they would - and when they do, they wouldn't care what your views are, how your ancestors arrived here, whether you are a good guy or whether you like them or not. They would shoot you just as well so they can have room to spread their genetic seeds in this continent as well.

#plantaganet

Your ITIC statistical source reveals:

"...the EU Council issued a strong announcement condemning the indiscriminate rocket fire from the Gaza Strip into Israel. In an exceptional statement, the announcement stressed the need to disarm all the terrorist organizations in the Gaza Strip. It also stressed
Israel's right to defend itself. However, the ministers said they were "appalled" by the "human cost" of the operation in Shejaiya. It also called for a ceasefire and "the immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of crossings" (EU website, July 22, 2014)

Re those crossings ITIC reports:

"During the ground operation the IDF has left the crossings open and allowed for merchandise and humanitarian aid to enter the Gaza Strip. According to sources in the office of the Coordinator for Government Activities in the Territories, efforts are being made to distinguish between the civilian population and terrorist elements. That is being done despite the complex situation in which Hamas and other terrorist organization operatives blend into the civilian population and endanger them (Cogat.idf.il, July 22, 2014).

The Erez Crossing
During Operation Protective Edge more than 50 mortar shells have been fired at the Erez crossing (one Israeli civilian was killed). Nevertheless, the crossing continues operating, endangering the lives of the people working there. There has been a decrease in the number of Palestinians seeking medical care because they are afraid of the roadblocks erected by Hamas to prevent them from reaching the
crossing

The Kerem Shalom crossing has remained open throughout Operation Protective Edge,even since the beginning of the ground operation, despite its being one of the sites most threatened, especially by mortar shell fire from the Gaza Strip. On July 22, 2014, between 1000 and 1600 hours, the IDF declared it would be possible to deliver merchandise and humanitarian equipment to the Gaza Strip through the Kerem Shalom crossing. Since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge 778 trucks carrying food, medicine and medical equipment have entered the Gaza Strip through the crossing. Diesel fuel for the Gaza Strip power plant, gasoline and cooking gas have also been delivered"

Israel bashers please note.

But David

Are not all the ITIC Reports Israel Security Agency Shin Bet/Shabak disinformation?

For confirmation all should see http://www.shabak.gov.il/english/Pages/default.aspx .

Cheers

Pete

Yu
You show a total disregsrd for the foundation of western society and why it is so successful and relatively free from the instuitionslised intolerance of Jewish Israel ( which you show you and your family support) and the intolerance of the muslim extremists. Try to understand the subulties in this and you will see why the west loves secularism and democracy.

And are so unlike you mid eastern religious nutjobs.

#Plantaganet

If all the ITIC Reports are Israel Security Agency Shin Bet/Shabak disinformation why have you used their statistics of Gazan civilian deaths?

Are you suggesting the EU did not make the statement and that the crossings have not remained open during Operation Protective Edge as ITIC has reported?

Give us the evidence to substantiate your claims.

Here is a verbatim extract from the EU declaration

"The EU strongly condemns the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel by Hamas and militant groups in the Gaza Strip, directly harming civilians. These are criminal and unjustifiable acts. The EU calls on Hamas to immediately put an end to these acts and to renounce violence. All terrorist groups in Gaza must disarm. The EU strongly condemns calls on the civilian population of Gaza to provide themselves as human shields.

The EU condemns the loss of hundreds of civilian lives, among them many women and children. While recognizing Israel's legitimate right to defend itself against any attacks, the EU underlines that the Israeli military operation must be proportionate and in line with international humanitarian law.

The EU stresses the need for protection of civilians at all times. The EU is particularly appalled by the human cost of the Israeli military operation in Shuja'iyya, and is deeply concerned at the rapidly deteriorating humanitarian situation. All sides must meet their obligations and immediately allow safe and full humanitarian access in Gaza for the urgent distribution of assistance. The EU calls on all sides to implement in good faith an immediate cease fire."

To confirm what is happening with Erez and Keren Shalom crossings please read this additional piece of what you will no doubt dismiss as "disinformation"

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1407/S00214/summary-of-civilian-assistance-from-israel-to-gaza.htm

You are rapidly becoming no better than the miserable mob of Israel bashers who frequent OLO in droves and make claims that they are unable to substantiate when challenged

Pete, you are wasting your time trying to reason with Singer. He will cherry pick all day long and when you refuse to descend to his juvenile level you will be accused of refusing to respond!

In all the huffing and puffing it is easy to lose sight of the essential facts. A lot of them have already been canvassed in this thread of comments. I will just emphasize two more.

Gaza has been subject to a stranglehold for a very long time. Its borders are closed, and not just with Israel. Its political leaders cannot travel freely abroad. It is denied essential supplies, what one Israeli Minister was quoted as saying they were on a "diet".

Since 1967 Israel has continued to illegally occupy Palestinian land (quite apart from other land thefts over the past decades. They have repeatedly ignored international demands to leave.

For this and all the other reasons set out by multiple commenters on this thread Israel has behaved and continues to behave as an international outlaw. It does so because it is secure in the knowledge that it enjoys the unqualified protection of the USA.

They are a disgrace to the international community and Singer by his constant apologia for the unforgivable places himself outside the limits of civil discourse. As I said earlier, why
Graeme continues to give such space to such unmitigated drivel is beyond understanding.

David

Don't become too excitable, nor revert to gloating. It ill becomes a lawyer or spokesman for Israel.

This event http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704943/Aussie-teen-suicide-bomber-killed-FIVE-people-Iraq-named-Adam-Dahman-family-believe-hes-alive.html has given me pause that ultimately the threats to Israel may become the threats to Australia.

What has been disturbing has been the number of deaths of Palestinian non-combatants and the the potential for Netanyahu to politically gain from a state of war. Yet Israel does have the right to defend itself.

I'll stick to what I'm best at - which includes assessing the nuclear capabilities of Israel's Dolphin flotilla.

And with the hope that you refrain from your typical gloating, exit the irresolvable issue of Israel vs the rest.

Cheers

Pete

Dear David

It must be great concern to you that the droves are increasing and asking increasingly difficult questions about Israeli aggression and war crimes.

And of course you won't address those questions and will merely criticize those who ask them as Israeli haters.

Israel last night, AFP reported, rejected John Kerry's peace proposal part of which required the lifting of the blockade of Gaza and addressing the broader Palestinian issues.

Care to explain Israels refusal to endorse these very reasonable proposals?

Are you awaiting your instructionsDavid?

So you get your response right?

From the same website David Singer used earlier and this is happening as this is written;

Quote

July 26

Breaking: Israel shelling Beit Hanoun Hospital in Gaza now

The Israeli military have started to shell and shoot at Beit Hanoun hospital. There are still 61 medical staff and civilians, three patients and two International Solidarity Movement volunteers trapped inside.

"It's now chaos, the military is shelling directly at us. There are two patients on the second floor and we think they're okay, but we can't move them easily as they're bed-bound. I'm bleeding from a head wound and there's another person injured. People are very frightened." Stated Fred Ekblad, Swedish ISM activist.

At 19:00, Beit Hanoun Hospital was first hit by an Israeli tank shell and the shooting and shelling has continually increased.

This afternoon, Israeli forces destroyed an ambulance in Beit Hanoun, killing one paramedic and critically injuring another.

Israeli forces have attacked three Gazan medical facilities and personnel in the last 24 hours. The first resulted in the destruction of Al Durrah Children’s Hospital in Gaza City last night. A two year-old child in the Intensive Care Unit was killed, and 30 others injured.

End Quote

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1407/S00288/breaking-israel-shelling-beit-hanoun-hospital-in-gaza.htm

Just a footnote on Steeleredux's source --Scoop media:

"Well I already found it laughable how Scoop called themselves something like “New Zealand’s INDEPENDENT NEWS” in their banner, above stories that were always just blatantly fellating the left and the hard left, and parroting their talking points. It just felt like an insult to my intelligence as a reader, probably the main reason I never bothered much with Scoop. At least the brothers and sisters at The Standard are honest about what they are."
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/01/where_to_for_scoop.html

As I observed once before when you see a source/site calling itself "índepedent" it usually means its somewhere left of Pol Pot.

But who would have thought that Steeleredux would resort dredging up guff from such a site, eh?

Lol oh dear SPQR you keep getting twisted arse about don't you. David Singer was the one who first posted from this site claiming;

“To confirm what is happening with Erez and Keren Shalom crossings please read this additional piece of what you will no doubt dismiss as "disinformation". “

So when your paragon of factual information Mr David Singer chose to post from it there was not a peep from you but when I pin him down with a report from exactly the same site you attack with “But who would have thought that Steeleredux would resort dredging up guff from such a site, eh?”

The only logical conclusion we can make is that your attempts to besmirch any information contrary to your view has you doing ludicrous contortions that put you in an exceedingly poor light. At least Singer has a touch more subtlety to his bloated bias.

Avw

'You are unable to respond to any of the flaws I pointed out in your posts.'

Whatever you say, Avw. Think whatever you like. I'm under no obligation to 'respond' to you or to anyone else here. On OLO, I choose only to debate with people whose opinions I respect.

I’ve made it clear why I refuse to be drawn into any tit-for-tat exchange of supposed 'reasoned arguments' and 'evidence' to justify the horror of what Israel has been doing to Palestine for several decades. Israel’s current brutality in Gaza is so bestial and ruthless, and yet conducted with such embarrassing international impunity, it defies any form of 'reasonable' discussion and can no longer be justified by so-called 'evidence' (especially when so much of it is dubious and biased).

In fact, to do so, simply adds justification to something utterly unjustifiable.

Secondly, I also refuse to be drawn into discussions about Hitler. I’ve made this point before on OLO. I despise Godwin’s Law rhetoric and refuse to engage with it. There is a great deal written about the farcical ‘election’ that handed power to the Nazis in 1933, which completely destroys even remotely calling what happened either a democratic or electoral process.

So please don't insult either my intelligence or your own by throwing me more pathetic Wiki links.

So David your instructions are to ignore the reports and to avoid answering any questions regarding Israel's refusal or the conditions intended and put forward by John Kerry.

Right

Your instructions in regard to this post will be to ignore it and talk about anything else.
Right?

And your instructions in regard to that statement will be .....

Christ you make me laugh you are so bloody shallow and obvious.

Killarney,

You are indeed under no obligation to respond to anyone. It might even be considered a clever strategy by some to refrain from responding once your claims are challenged and you are unable to address those challenges.

"Israel's current brutality in Gaza…cannot be justified by so-called evidence..."

There is so much evidence refuting your claims of brutality that I fully understand your reluctance to discuss it any further. The source of brutality in Gaza is Hamas, and as long as they are in power there will be no end to the suffering in that corner of the world.

You were the one who raised the issue of Hamas having been "democratically elected". I appreciate your attempt to dodge this glaring similarity to the Nazis by calling on Goodwin's Law, but if you cannot see the parallel between the two then you really ought to work on your analytical skills.
The Nazi rise to power was based on democratic elections to a parliament that they eventually hijacked by eliminating all opposition. It was no different to the farcical elections in Gaza where Hamas was elected and then proceeded to eliminate any opposition. If you do not agree with the Wikipedia links please go to any library and borrow a history book about the rise of the Nazis to power. Let me know if it contradicts the events depicted in those "pathetic" Wiki articles.
If you are not comfortable discussing Germany of the 1930s due to your apparent lack of knowledge on the subject, pick any other totalitarian regime you are familiar with. Regardless of how they came to power, the result is the same: Hamas is a brutal, tyrannical regime that could not care less about the welfare of its people. By siding with and praising it you are harming the cause of ordinary Palestinians, condemning them to continue their life of anguish under this ruthless regime.

Dear Imajulianutter,

<<You show a total disregsrd for the foundation of western society and why it is so successful and relatively free from the instuitionslised intolerance of Jewish Israel ( which you show you and your family support) and the intolerance of the muslim extremists. Try to understand the subulties in this and you will see why the west loves secularism and democracy.

And are so unlike you mid eastern religious nutjobs.>>

It is true that I disregard the foundation of Western society, just as you show total disregard for spelling. This is no secret as I have been discussing those issues long enough on OLO, urging for deeper and better foundations.

But what, other than a feeble attempt to attack me personally, has this to do with this topic or with my former post?

And by-the-way, while I support Israel's continued existence and military might, so it can defend my family, I do not support its institutionalised intolerance. In fact, I abhor it.

Yesterday evening in Rabin Square Tel Aviv over 5,000 people protested the Israeli/Gaza war. The invitation read;

“The war is taking a heavy toll in lives and injuries on both sides, in destruction and horror, in bombings and rockets. We answer this by taking a stand and making a demand: end the war now!

We must end the war and start talking with the recognized Palestinian leadership of the West Bank and Gaza to end the occupation and the siege and to achieve independence and justice for both peoples – in Israel and Palestine.

Instead be being drawn, again and again, into more wars and more military actions, it is now time to lead the way to dialogue and political settlement. There is a political solution. What price must we pay – the people of the South and the other residents of Israel, and the people of Gaza and the West Bank – until we reach that solution?

Together, Jews and Arabs, we will overcome occupation and war, hatred, incitement and racism – and offer a path to life and hope.”

One can only hope they made some difference. Curiously there was a term I hadn't heard before; 'rightist'. This was the name given to the 300 counter protesters who turned up.
http://972mag.com/no-more-deaths-israelis-protest-the-gaza-war/94380/

I suppose it is the corollary of calling people leftists but I have only seen it in relation to Israel like this one about Facebook shutting down 'rightist' pages in that country.
http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/37972-140723-facebook-closes-pages-of-rightist-israeli-groups

Just a question Steele: how many demonstrations against HAMAS missiles and kidnappings have you seen held in HAMAS dominated territory?

#imajulianutter

I have made it abundantly clear that I do not intend responding to any comments from you until you apologise for calling me a liar - which you made clear you had no intention of doing.

It seems that intelligent people are still arguing with Singer who is made from Jewish fire-clay which everyone knows is platinum hard and entirely resistant to reason or logic or morality.

What is the point of arguing with him? He resembles a cockatoo who repeats the mindless Jewish mantra over and over guided by Grahame's endless, over-the-top patronage.

Both of them obviously enjoy the slaughter in Gaza!

Hi David G

Your knuckles are draggin agin. Or pick Box G = gibbering cretin.

If we're to get this thread to the Golden 100 we only need around 17 more inane comments.

But seriously I'm glad you escaped from the pig pokin asylum.

Cheers

Pete

IMFA Report 28 July

After 71 rockets fired on Sunday (27 July), no reports of rocket fire since midnight and no reports of Israeli strikes on the Gaza Strip. At 7:30 am (28 July) one rocket exploded in Ashkelon.

Tunnel building logistics http://youtu.be/7CrOq8gd6kQ

How can you abhor Israel's institutionalised intolerance yu, when you support it?

'I support Israel's continued existence and military might, so it can defend my family,...'

Israel's military might is killing innocent children. Or do you think Palestinian children not innocent because they are Palestinian? What threat are they to your family and what have they done to your family in Israel?

That is the moral issue you need answer not the political issue Israel wants the Palestinian children to answer with their lives.

See the latest polls. Hamas is now more popular than previously. Jesus you people are increasing the support for Hamas. Is that the result you expected from the current 'defence' of your family?

Start thinking for yourself Yu. As we westerners have done throughout our history. You are currently sucked in by the Israeli orthodoxy and it is stupid. It will only result in further retributions.

'#imajulianutter

I have made it abundantly clear that I do not intend responding to any comments from you until you apologise for calling me a liar - which you made clear you had no intention of doing.

Posted by david singer, Monday, 28 July 2014 9:52:06 AM'

hahahah

David Singer's non response was exactly as I predicted. . You really are tied up in knots aren't you David, was your post a response or not?

Really you are worth a good old laugh, just like your mate in NSW. What was his name? Gone and forgotten? lol

Dear ImaJulianNutJob

You'll just have to wait for more Hummus propaganda with crackers.

Cheers

Pete

Pete

there is only one thing funnier.

Singer complaining about being called a liar when all he has ever done on olo is repeat the Israeli propaganda, which is mostly lies, and it's intent to cover the atrocities in Gaza and the West Bank and the land stealing.

Too clever by half, Singer.

I'll tell you what: google Palestine map.

look at the results and you will see the size of the Gaza territory has not changed since 1948.

Yet the Palestinian Territories in the other parts of Palestine since 1948 have been fractured and shrunken.

Gaza has Hamas and rockets.

Conclusion.
The Israelis cannot overcome people who stand up for themselves.

Look what happened with Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon.

These lesson will spreads.

Israeli's and their mouthpieces like Singer are too narrowly focused to see what is really happening.

Longer term they will be beaten, but are too stupid to try another road map to peace.

Dear Imajulianutter,

<<How can you abhor Israel's institutionalised intolerance yu, when you support it?>>

I support Israel's existence and Israel's might because these are necessary for the safety and well-being of my family. I do not support those aspects of Israel which are not necessary for the safety and well-being of my family (and in fact harm them), including its intolerance, its Zionism and its 1967 occupation.

<<do you think Palestinian children not innocent because they are Palestinian?>>

While the war goes on, I do not think about them, either way. When being shot at, it is time to shoot back. Sadly, it is not possible to shoot those rockets and tunnels without hitting some of these children as well, as few as possible of course, but it cannot be avoided altogether.

<<Jesus you people are increasing the support for Hamas. Is that the result you expected from the current 'defence' of your family?>>

The only result I expect is the elimination of rockets and tunnels - for a while, no doubt, and that is currently being achieved. I am well aware that in a few years it will need to be repeated, just as we need once in a while to brush our teeth and clean our gutters.

In Australia we have fires, as well as floods and cyclones in the north. Some countries are very prone to earthquakes and tsunamis, others have active volcanoes, others hurricanes, others AIDS, famine, etc. That's life, no place is free from troubles - and the Middle-East has wars.

yu that post was an utter disgrace.

You have no shame and conscience.

I have saved it to throw in your face.

ijnutter:

"...the size of the Gaza territory has not changed since 1948...Gaza has Hamas and rockets. Conclusion. The Israelis cannot overcome people who stand up for themselves."

Do you read any background material before commenting here? Do you have any idea of the recent history of the area? Any clue whatsoever about the order of events?

The answer is obviously a resounding NO.
Between 1948 and 1967 Gaza was occupied by Egypt. No Hamas, no rockets. Israel took Gaza from Egypt in 1967, overcoming your non-existent Hamas and their imaginary rockets with ease. It was occupying Gaza until 2005, when it unilaterally withdrew from the territory. Hamas was not in power then, still no rockets were being fired into Israel and no terror tunnels. Your conclusion is utterly wrong, not surprising since it is based on fabricated facts. The only conclusion that any logical person might reach is that the current extreme violence is a result of Israel withdrawing from Gaza (not that I'm suggesting they should have stayed there).

How can you call David Singer a liar when you are so utterly clueless about the background to his article?

AVW

Why did you ignore the state of the reduction of the size of the other Palestinian territories during the same period?

Too difficult to face the genocide being undertaken by the mid eastern religious nutjobs?

Addressing only half of my position was dishonest. But what else would we expect from a bunch of genocidal liars.

inutter:

"Addressing only half of my position was dishonest"

Is there a golden rule on OLO forcing me to address your entire post, or not at all? I note that you did not address ANY of the points in my post. Why didn't you? Isn't that even more dishonest?

I thought I made it quite clear that the claim taking up most of your previous post was not valid because it was based on fantasy, and I backed it up with historical events. So now I'm a liar as well? Could you demonstrate what part of my comment was a lie?

It might work out better for you if you study the background to a topic before commenting, rather than accusing everyone who contradicts you of lying.

Awv
Realisticaly and fortunately my reading unlike yours appears to be broader in scope than the daily propaganda sheets and talking points of the Israel propaganda factory.

imanutter:

You still don't accept the fact that the claims in your post were mostly rubbish. I've provided you with evidence explaining why your claims are rubbish, evidence which you are unable or unwilling to contest, other than saying it's a lie. You even refuse to point out what part of my evidence is not true. Given the fact that my post concerned events that occurred in history, I assume you are disputing those historical events, labelling them as lies originating with "the Israel[i] propaganda factory".

Frankly, I don't think your reading, if you indeed do any of it, extends beyond radical left wing publications producing the usual Israel hating material. You obviously have very little knowledge of this topic as you're unable to justify your claims or counter the facts I provided.

@AVW and IJN: Gentleman, aren't you rather straying from the point? Since at least 1967 Israel has either occupied or controlled Palestinian territory. They have periodically mounted attacks on Gaza of which the current one is merely the latest. Even when they are not attacking Gaza they have maintained a stranglehold on the territory. It has been aptly described as the world's largest open air prison.

In the last 72 hours the Israelis have attacked UN shelters, killing large numbers of civilians. This is merely the latest in a long list of war crimes perpetrated by the Israelis. They do not have, and never have had, a genuine interest in any "peace process" that is other than on their terms. They are a disgrace to humanity.

As Patrick Cockburn recently pointed out in an article in The Independent, they use sophisticated pr techniques to justify the unjustifiable to the world's media. I can understand the slavish acceptance of Israeli crimes by the US. What I find incomprehensible is that Australia in really no better, as evidenced by, most recently, a stunning silence from Abbott and Bishop of the current Israeli offensive against Gaza. Our voting record in the UN is a further indication.

When people like David Singer in effect blame the Gazans for the atrocities perpetrated upon them I feel literally sick at heart. There will never be peace in the region while Israel is permitted to carry on the way it does with an almost complete absence of accountability.

James:

I don’t think too many people blame ordinary Gazans for the violence and deaths (I certainly don't). The blame lies with Hamas who are using them to protect their terror weapons and to score public relation points. It's no secret that they are indeed using their own citizens as human shields, they are clearly saying so in public interviews available for all to see, glorifying their "Industry of Death".

It's easy to accuse Israel of maintaining a stranglehold on the territory. But the Israeli restrictions on the flow of people and merchandise was a gradual process that was initiated once it became obvious that the Gaza rulers (Hamas) are hell-bent on destroying Israel. Ask yourself, if Israel is the source of all evil and Hamas are so good and noble, why is Egypt blocking their border with Gaza as well? Is everyone there evil except for Hamas?

You're referring to the attacks mounted by Israel on Gaza, yet ignore the trigger for those attacks, some 10,000-15,000 rockets fired on Israeli civilians from Gaza over the last 8 years or so. That's a rough average of 4-5 rockets a day, give or take a rocket or two. What other country in the world would accept such terror against its civilians without responding? You mentioned war crimes, don't you agree that firing rockets at civilians falls squarely into the "war crime" category? Do Hamas have an exemption?

You say the Israelis do not have a genuine interest in any peace process. They might try to drive a hard bargain, but at least the Israelis are negotiating for peace and have been doing so for several decades. Peace was reached after all with Egypt, once a sworn enemy of Israel, and with Jordan. Both those countries fought bitter wars with Israel in the past. Hamas on the other hand defines itself as a movement with the sole purpose of eliminating Israel. No matter how many peace offers you come up with, they will never accept it. There can never be peace in the region as long as Hamas are in power.

Awv

My reading extends from the Christian New Testament, the Old Testament, the classic Greeks, Romans, Russians, Europeans, the Romantics through the great liberal traditions, the British classics, American classics. I have head all the great moralists from Augustine , Aquinas, Gregory and much of the encyclical literature of the 20th century Catholic church.
I subscribe to the great western Liberal traditions and reject socialism in all its forms. I have read much of the traditions othe literature of the Hebrew and Muslim religions. I have read some Asian literature and have a little knowledge of eastern spirituality.

I now write prose and poetry and think the backward religions of the Jews and Islamist Muslims the cause of all the great atrocities in the world today. Since both subscribe to the beliefs of revenge and reaping that which is sown both will continue to kill each other until the west asserts it's natural moral superiority and directs one or either side to adopt western traditions of a belief in forgiveness and treating it's enemies with love. So that both sides can develop a philosophy that allows all the disparate people's of the region to live with uncertainty without being paralyzed by fear or violence. (Adapted from Russell) just as we have done for centuries in the Liberal Democratic west.

Now try very hard to argue against that philosophical argument without pointing fingers or abuse.

Imanutter:

This is your third post following my demonstration that your claims were baseless, and you are still unable to address any of the points I raised. Each of my posts offers direct replies to your claims, quoting the relevant section in your post, yet all you can do is boast about the number of (largely irrelevant) books you've read and your (equally irrelevant) poetry. It seems all those books did little to improve your understanding of the Israel-Palestine problem, or your grammar.

"I...think the backward religions of the Jews and Islamist Muslims the cause of all the great atrocities in the world today...both will continue to kill each other until the west asserts it's natural moral superiority and directs one or either side to adopt western traditions of a belief in forgiveness and treating it's enemies with love"

You show them, those primitive barbarians, that we are much better than them. Demonstrate your superiority and everything would be fine.

Do you realise what utter nonsense this statement is? Forgiveness and love? Are we back in the sixties? Are you a late-developed hippie? Maybe we should throw some flowers at the conflict to fix it?

Do you also realise that as soon as you force Israel (one side of the conflict, as you suggest) to accept the hippie ideology you are promoting, Hamas will eliminate it? Have you managed to find time to read their charter?

Christianity was not denounced by you as a "backward religion", presumably because it preaches to turn the other cheek, which happens to conform to your childish hippie mentality. Are you aware of the number of worldwide conflicts between Muslims and Christians? Or between Muslims and Buddhists? Was it mentioned in any of that great literature that you've read?

Cont -->

--> Cont

And how exactly is the "backward" Jewish religion responsible for all the great atrocities in the world today? Let's look at some examples of the current world problems. Can you explain how it is responsible for:

The ISIS conflict
The Syrian civil war
The massacres in Oman and Yemen
Egyptian massacres
South Sudan
Boko Haram
Sri Lanka and the Tamils
North Korean massacres

This should prove interesting, or at least entertaining. Let me know how you go.

"...live...without being paralyzed by fear or violence…just as we have done for centuries in the Liberal Democratic west"

Surely those tiny skirmishes less than a century ago called WW1 and WW2 were mentioned in your extensive reading material?

So many blunders and factual errors, and this is just in one paragraph. Sadly this is a repeated theme in all your posts.

As for finger-pointing and abuse, can I remind you that I'm not the one accusing people of lying without being able to back up my accusation.