"It seems we have rediscovered a thirst for the mythical in the face of dull scientism."

Yes, but we're more discriminating now, Peter. We prefer our myths to make sense. I hear that Michael Bay was planning a movie in which a parthenogenic levitating conjuring carpenter forgave people for things they hadn't done yet by getting temporarily killed, but the continuity people wouldn't let him do it. They said nobody could suspend their disbelief about nonsense like that.

A fine piece Peter. One of the comforts for the dusty road of the Christian is the three in one of the good, truth and beauty. We have a 2000 year age of such bounty, a deep well to draw on. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

An article driven by sheer desperation - a new low of casuistry even for Sells.

wether to forward/or for-caution

peter/quote..clue..<<..*We see*..the angel...in side view..
..with his wings..[read spirit/guides]..neatly attached between his shoulder blades.>>

see that the imagry/is how we attain to prophecy

let me explain/the vision\your vion/put into words/bares..witness to

<<..He is dressed elegantly..in pink and gold,>>

RED SLIPPERS/OR PiNK;INTERMEiate

that the artist percieved as <<>his wings>>..spirit gides..<<>.are magnificent..>>

indeed they are/they resemble wongs/but their head/shoulders
are best seen in prophile

PLUS?HE IS WEARING GOOGLE GLASSES
the latest design//<<>.and his halo is solid gold and appears attached to the side of his head...>>

in some it is
other designs are just slip-ons..[but think google glass's]

plus design changes/over time..<<>>The representation of halos in Italian art change with time...[lol]..They progress from the rather static..and solid form..we have in this painting..>>

indicating the early adopters

<<>.to more transparent forms that are oriented according to the orientation of the head.>>

oops huge clue/google glass
who owns first discovery rights

who would have think the design working is done
''acording to the orientation/of the head?

who is the head of thyne home?
by their works/wurks/shall we know and endow them

Peter again demonstrates why the Anglican church only hangs on by its assets and not adherents. Meanwhile the church that Christ is building grows stronger.

In my youth, we learned of myths and legends, but we understood that is exactly what they were. Then along came the religious instruction classes where we were told these marvellous stories from the bible. In our youthful naivety we believed them. It was only later that we realised that we were being snowed and that most of these stories were also myths. The confusion came about because many were actually based on historical events such as floods, earthquakes and eclipses, which the story tellers used to give the impression of truth. Today we have spin doctors who are employed to do exactly the same thing. We are told stories based on half truths and those with little up top believe the garbage they are fed, as do those who believe in the existence of a supreme being. If such a being existed, mankind would have been called to order long ago and replaced by some other race with much more benign characteristics.

David

David, the whole Judeo / Christian story is a call to order for mankind. The relating of that story ( In the beginning was the Word... I am your God, you are my people - my ways are not your ways..) began through a people, the Hebrews, with a pretty good myth that provides an understanding of our human condition. That story matured with the Word coming to flesh. This is the crowning of our humanity.
You sound impatient and despairing with your loss of human hope and trust. Probably for good reason, as reason itself is barren and cold. The Enlightenment of its own is an ill light. Reason informed of faith, and faith informed of reason lets flow a warm light. Michael

VK3AUU..<<..In my youth, we learned of myths and legends..In our youthful naivety we believed them.>>

EVEN GROAN-UPS LIVE OUT LEGENDS/EGENDERY PEOPLE FILLOUR PAST/WALK OUR STREETS/THEY ARE ALL EGSADURATIONS/characateurs/type-cast[S JESUS SAYS IN COURSE IN MIRACLES/the visualisation/of a chair/jons the imagry/being..of all chairs

<M<..It was only later that we realised..that we were being snowed>>

no..it was only later/we lived out lesser dreams/thus disbelieve the works of those driven[see saints]

<<>>and that most of these stories were also myths.>>

so what/myth miracle/its all about possability and probaility[ie infinte monkeys typing out war/and\peace]

<<>. The confusion came about because/they/give the impression of truth.>>

no they are distortions/of fears hopes dreams delusions/
shaping in our mind linkages with spirits loving the obsession of invalidating normal living

<<.Today we have spin doctors..and paid to bloggers
and trolls/all just tryingto earn a crust/push their barrow save the world your way.

<<>who are employed to do exactly the same thing.>>..SOMEHOW BECOMES..<<>.If such a being existed,..mankind would have been called.to order long ago and re..placed by some other race .with much more benign characteristics.>>

HE DID/we are his 9 th try
we are so far doing far better than the rest
[i hold because of fables and imagery imagination passion and god]

regardless/we are the 9th[we are the first to be able to read
like angels and demons do/that first abstraction of inds imagination/saw the creation of the symbol/symbolism..solmambalisim

boxgum,..<<>.David, the whole Judeo / Christian story is a call to order /In the beginning was the Word... I am your God, you are my people - my ways are not your ways..)..began through a people,>>

yes thats correct

not just the Hebrews,..it began/with/..<<<,with a pretty good myth that provides an understanding of our human condition...*That story matured with the Word coming to flesh...This is the crowning of our humanity.>>

the word comming/to the flesh\..is that still quiet voice reading the spell/to you\that makes your MIND VISUALIZE THE IMAGERY/processed/by the brain/or fed back by osmosis/holograpgicly/THIS COMMON IMAGERY/THEN HAS..[vibe]\..A SYNCHRONIZED Vibration/with the author who's words frame

the vibe of the imagery
and the comentary..in their mind/put into word/

hit/post

boxer..<<You [david]..sound impatient and despairing with your loss of human hope and trust...?..Probably for good reason, as reason itself is barren and cold.>>

please explain
FOR ME FACTS ARE GREAT
BUT REASONING WITH BALANCING FACORS..is better.

<<>.The Enlightenment..of its own/is an ill light.>>

DO YOU MEAN/ITS FRUITS.WHICH-HUNTS\INQUISITIONS/CRUSADES..OR PILGRIME-AGES..OR MIRROR-CALLS?

<<..Reason informed of faith, and faith informed
of reason lets flow a warm light.>>

Michael..THE END OF THE QUOTATION

faith informed/of reason/implies a reason/a cause
but much misery/is without excuse and beyond that of reasoning

for me/there is one..light/sustaining life via logic/that\life/love logic/logus sustaining all light[light is change of state/a particle of infnite particles AND WAVES/SPECTRUM'S..MAny have their own sense/reality[ie uv]..so much to delight..in de-light./

It's interesting that there are so many books
that used to be the purview of only
dedicated spiritual seekers now hit the bestseller
lists and stay there for weeks and months.

Material that used to be the cosmic gossip at
ashran lunchrooms all of a sudden is on network
television.

As the philosopher Schopenhauer once wrote:
"Every truth passes through three stages, before it
is recognised. In the first, it is ridiculed. In the
second, it is opposed. In the third, it is regarded
as self-evident."

Many still linger between ridicule and opposition, but
there are heaps of people throughout the world - who are
beginning to regard as self-evident principles of
ancient spiritual wisdom.

Many have it seems reached a critical mass of spiritual
yearning despite wordly appearances. There is a mass
curiousity and openess to spiritual ideas, unprecedented
to modern Western culture. Things we thought were
primitive beliefs turn out to be more sophisticated than
we are.

Foxy, that is all they are, beliefs, not facts.

Other societies beside the Hebrews had good ideas of morals and ethics. Take for example Plato, Socrates, Confucius Buddha. The Hebrews so called prophets were just another bunch of spin doctors trying to convince the gullible that they were God's chosen people. They are still at it.

David

An interesting article, but it set some alarm bells ringing.

A few years ago I took a theology course in which the main text was “ReEnchantment: The New Australian Spirituality” by David Tacey. This was one of the worst books on spirituality I have read (and there are some shockers) – a mixture of reactionary Romanticism, vitriolic anti-rationalism and anti-modernity, appeals to authority, and an attempted Jungian critique of Australia’s “national soul”. Tacey calls for a spirituality based on ethnicity, national identity and landscape and directed by artistic and spiritual elites. I found this positively creepy.

I agree that myth, symbolism and the arts are important for faith and for culture more broadly. But they need to be tempered and critiqued. The genie of modernity is out of the bottle. Rather than trying to force it back in, we should see science and reason, myth and symbol as different points in a continuum representing the search for truth, meaning, God, and the nature of the human.

On the other hand, Mr Sellick, perhaps not.

>>Perhaps Christian art is a way into a much-needed re-enchantment of the world in which we may find ourselves more fully human?<<

I rather suspect that it was just another form of propaganda, supporting the rights arrogated themselves by the priesthood, that allowed them to dictate to king and commoner alike. The sheer beauty of the artists' product, and the confidence they displayed in the mythology that underpinned the subject matter, were used as "proof" of the artifacts' mystical origins.

They used much the same technique with music. One can only speculate at the impact of a cathedral-full of a Palestrina mass on the average sixteenth-century illiterate peasant. But in the hands of the church's spin doctors, it would have been presented as a pretty convincing argument, one would think, for the existence of "God's work". Royalty too, would have employed such music - for example, at their coronation - to convince the hoi polloi of the "divine right" of kings to rule over them.

Just another example of how human endeavour has, over the centuries, been drafted to the cause of reinforcing the power of one set of human beings over another.

Sad, really.

'Just another example of how human endeavour has, over the centuries, been drafted to the cause of reinforcing the power of one set of human beings over another. '

r u talking about porn Pericles. That seems to obsess the arty farties in the secular world. Only they call it 'art'.

>> in the hands of the church's spin doctors, it would have been presented as a pretty convincing argument ... for the existence of "God's work" <<

Is it not so that also in the hands of scientists and its popularisers (the physic’s spin doctors?) what they write is presented as a pretty convincing argument for the Big Bang, quantum physics or relativity ? Although the common folk reading these things have an as naive understanding of physics, its philosophy and the mathematics involved as those illiterate peasants had of metaphysics and Palestrina’s motivation for writing his mass?

A well written piece.
Except that it is a load of rubbish.
An attempt to hearken back to a naive and essentially childish entirely mythological world which has no basis in Reality. A mythological world-view which dose not, and can not equip those who subscribe to it, to live with Real Intelligence in the instantaneously interconnected Quantum world of now (and future) time.

By contrast this essay describes what the purpose of a truly Spiritually inspired/informed Art should attempt to accomplish - the transcending of "point of view" in Vast Unpatterned Joy.

http://www.aboutadidam.org/readings/transcending_the_camera/index.html

This extraordinary essay is also very much about the transcendence of "point of view".
http://www.dabase.org/Reality_Itself_Is_Not_In_The_Middle.htm

runner, the post modern art is not porn...child porn was brought about by our histor=y..hence the miss-understanding of art its self.

Jokes aside....Why are religious people so infatuated with children?

Kat

daffy/THAT STEP/TOO\FAR

<<..The scientific description..of light..["particles".and "waves"]..is further explained..if ..light..[ITSELF]..is understood..>>

first understand/this...a particle/is released..by
an event/as..the event progress../..THE PARTICLES..;..FORM WAVES

<<..(and/observed)..to-be always..in
a spiral..(or helix)..form—like..the material..DNA..>>>..

NON-SENSE/

science/uses/slots and scatter..
spiral/is\only correct/..if extremely\abstracted..[TO WIT..WATCH..AS A PHOTON..bumps/THROUGH ANTI-MATTER[SPACE]..LIKE..A WAVE*ROLLS ACROSS THE DEEP..

ie each..individual water-molicule/bumps
its/SURFACE-TENSION\energy/onwards/TO ITS NEIGHBOUR/..;..watchers state\they roll-over/back to where\they were/..but the wave[energy Kinetic-movement/has moved on

phoTON.. ARE MUCH THE SAME/..as the wae..spreads out/into the dark-matter/..;vacume/of outer-space..the individual photons...pass-over/by\the photon/exiting..@..180/..in the unlateral WAVE DIRECTIONal../to the point/that\we can capture..INDIVIDUAl-photons released..billions of years ago/long/lost..waves

not a 3 dimentional..corkscrew/spiral
[MORE LIKE..THE DIGETAL-LINEAR/POLARISED/LATERAL wave peaks/trough/SPIKE]

SAME/FORM/LIKE..<<>.form of DNA..(which is,..itself, =,,a direct materialization..of the structure..of light).>>

DAFFY../....DNA ACTUALLY EMITS LIGHT/LUMINESCENCE
further matter itself/is\..like ball lightening[basically light photons looping/..ENCLOSING\ENFOLDING//VIBRATING STRINGS OF LIight/forming substance/different vibration/wave lengths.for different mater

<<...If a spiral-form/is seen..at its point..>>..
\?/[FUKLCRUM/AXIS\?/....
<<..of rotation..(or its crossover*joint)?{

<<..,it is..observable..as a "particle"—>>
THE CROSS-OVER/rotating-JOINT/spiral-POINT?

RUBBISH

<<..and if/the..same spiral-form is..seen
with reference..to its limbs..of rotation>>

GIBBERISH
axis of rotation?..

<<..(before or after..its point of rotation,
or..its crossover joint),..it is observable as a "wave".>>

i think.your\saying cross-over point
or point of balance/po/nt PUNT..of no return?

LOL..A WAVE CROSS-OVER POINT;..STILL
SEE WE/HAVE HARMNMONIC OVERLAYS../..VIBRATORY-INTERPLAYS[HARMONCS/OR RATHER..THE..interfeance-WAVES..OF INTERACTIVE..phon-scatter/wavelet eventss..]like holographic plate

http://archive.org/stream/talbotholographicuniverse/talbotholographicuniverse_djvu.txt

<<..So,..also,..light..is observable/as both "particle" and "wave"—depending on which phase of its process..is observed..by attention (or "point of view", or ego-"I") .in time and space.>>

surprisingly/you arrived/at the right endpont
but much depends on ya slots;}

A vibrating string..can be seen/to demonstrate..the same spiraliform gait..as any mode..of observable light>>..

liken/this vibrating string..as afffecting one..OF THE THREE COLOUR WAVE RECIEVERS/receptors..IN THE EYE/..TO CONVERT THE..color/waves-VIBRATION..directly/INTO..chemical/ENEGY/THAT ACTIVATES/NERVES/RCEPTORS..TILL THE MIND/BRAIN//LOGUS LOGIC ..NNTERPLAY..VISUALISES THE CHEMICAL MESSAGES..PASSED AS INDIVIDIUAL IMPULSES/IN/NERVE/IMPLUSEWAVES

<<—and, so,..as a kind of/poetic inspiration,>>
..
lol

<<..Nevertheless,..whether light
is observed..(and,..thus,..understood)>>

lol/we see/obsrve\much..
we d0nt allways..realise..[AT/THE-TIME]..what
we are/PERCIEVING RATHER/THAN]..seeing[we summise it]
http://www.faraday.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/CIS/Wright/pdf/Wright_lecture.pdf

<<as a "particle"..or as a "wave"
or as a "string",..that observation..(or understanding)..is,
of/itself,..an act of./"perspectival objectification",>>

personal-objectification?

abslutly
http://www.spiritwritings.com/GatewayOfUnderstanding.pdf
wherein and whereby Reality Itself
is reduced—by the very act of observation,
or understanding, or mental fabrication—to a relation..>>
http://itsnobody.wordpress.com/2012/11/04/common-lies-spread-by-atheists/
lol

<<..(and, thus,..a subordinate)..of attention,
or "point of view",..or ego-"I".>>

.....................opinion?

Peter tells us that this essay was inspired by his reading/study of the book The Politics of Discipleship by Graham Ward.
But what is the nature of true discipleship?
It necessarily requires the help/guidance and especially the demands of a living Spiritual Master, and the practice of comprehensive psycho-physical disciplines.

Anything else is just the intrinsically God-less ego (or sinner) playing games with itself.
This essay describes what it really takes to be a real disciple under the guidance and demands of a living Spiritual Master.
http://goldensufi.org/a_chasm_fire.html

This set of references also describes the necessary psycho-physical disciplines which are the necessary prerequisite for genuine Spiritual practice or discipleship.
http://www.adidam.org/teaching/aletheon/truth-life-convert
It is interesting to note that one can read/peruse any/all of the usual Christian blogs and websites, including those associated with Keith Ward and his "orthodox" associates, and you will not find anything promoted therein which is even remotely like what is described and thus required in the above two references.

Another essay on the source of our individual and collective disenchantment.
http://www.aboutadidam.org/readings/baptism_of_immortal_happiness/index.html

'Jokes aside....Why are religious people so infatuated with children? '

tell me why so many unreligous people murder children before birth Kat

That's a very revealing remark, runner.

>>r u talking about porn Pericles. That seems to obsess the arty farties in the secular world. Only they call it 'art'.<<

If you read what I wrote, you would see that I am clearly referring to the propaganda power of Christian art. When I described the "sheer beauty of the artists' product", it was, quite obviously, Mr Sellick's example of Fra Angelico's altar piece that I had in mind.

It is interesting - but not altogether surprising - that your mind turned instantly to the idea that some kind of smut was involved.

Most informative.

Try lifting your sights out of the gutter once in a while. Not everything is about sex, you know, despite what you may imagine.

'It is interesting - but not altogether surprising - that your mind turned instantly to the idea that some kind of smut was involved.'

No Pericles just revealing how quickly you are to point out what you call propaganda from 'christian ' artist and ignoring the obvious propganda and perversion of secular artist. Not surpising though.

Pericles, by my reading of you in your words, you are representative of a whole mindset that works from a false premise... that religious faith is a crutch for the poor and powerless (a good thing) and for those poor inadequate fools who cannot address the world and its challenges ( a bad thing). I am afraid I must fall into the second category as I am not poor nor powerless as I have lifestyle choices available.
The price you pay for your elevated position is one of cynicism and an inability to rise above the mundane. To declare from on high that the beauty of art of religious character is but a tool to deceive and exploit places you in barren ground.
Peter's writings here are a source of fine appreciation of the good, the true and the beautiful that can only but inspire the human open to the transcendent to which it journeys - onwards and upwards.

Nice try to wriggle out of it, runner. Not very convincing though.

>>No Pericles just revealing how quickly you are to point out what you call propaganda from 'christian ' artist and ignoring the obvious propganda and perversion of secular artist. Not surpising though.<<

As most people can see, Mr Sellick's article is about Christian art, which was why I was making observations about Christian art. Neither of us mentioned secular artists, or their "perversions".

It takes a very special kind of mind to imagine that what we are in fact taking about is porn. But it does appear that you possess such a special kind of mind, runner, and every so often you let your guard down to show it to us.

'It takes a very special kind of mind to imagine that what we are in fact taking about is porn.'

More to the point Pericles it takes a special kind of mind to be so blinded by your own dogma and to deny the obvious.

Dear runner,

Then, there are people - like the Christian
murderers of abortion doctors, who are motivated
by what they perceive to be righteousness, faithfully
pursuing what their religion tells them. They are not
psychotic, they are religious idealists, who, by their
own lights, are rational. They perceive their acts to
be good, not because they have been possesed by Satan,
but because they have been brought up, from the cradle,
to have total and unquestioning faith.

lets/stop\ELIVATING/the DAFFY/myths

<<>.The Path of Love/is like..a bridge
of hair..across a chasm/of fire.>>

<<..Not long after Irina Tweedie..met her Sufi Guru,;]
..he explained/to her that.."love..is created..>>

STOP/IT..RUNNNG PERRIDICULES..

<<>.or produced>>

not so/loing=energising
proper loving heals/anything placed between/it

[OK/ITS PRODUCT/but not for sale[pro-duce]
proseduced..ok its greated/but its a flow of nurturing energy..

found/only..in..<<in the heart of the disciple..>>
one/who accords\complete jinder/union/strongerlonger/that any earthy marriage.[of soul-union/unity\of/purpose/reason/serving their lover

<<>.by the yogic power of the guru.">>

<<..This love-relationship is the essence..of the spiritual process>>

to true
but who needs guru/..my/guru=everyone

<<..what the Teacher..mainly did/was force me..to face>>


the LIGHT-ness..LIFE/living..in\off..mt..'self'
[read/micro/flora/fauna\90%..of our bodily dna

the absurdity/of 'alone;/when we support/sustain.'serve;..trillions.of micro/life.<<..within myself, and it almost killed me."??

because/her lover/made her see death
not that she..is co-creator/goddesss/of universe..tweedie'=me

TLM: Before you met your Guru, did you have any understanding of the Guru-disciple relationship?

TWEEDIE: Not really. I had studied Hindu scriptures, so theoretically I knew something about it but as we all know, things work out completely differently in life.



TLM: For you, then, the relationship was quite new and unexpected—maybe even a shock.

TWEEDLDEE..<<deep down, I didn't want him to have a name or a face at all. My friend looked at me and said, "Oh, that's a sign." "A sign of what?" I asked, and she only replied, "One day you will know."

I thought I was completely crazy.

Those are all signs.

He didn't like to be called Guru. We referred to him as Bhai Sahib, a Hindi expression that means "elder brother." When I spoke to him I called him "sheikh," which means "ruler." He was a Master.



TWEEDIE: Absolutely. When he told me to write the book, he emphasized, "Write down every doubt!" And I did

Not really, boxgum.

>>Pericles, by my reading of you in your words, you are representative of a whole mindset that works from a false premise... that religious faith is a crutch for the poor and powerless (a good thing) and for those poor inadequate fools who cannot address the world and its challenges ( a bad thing).<<

Religion is only partially a good thing when it acts as an emotional crutch for the "poor and powerless". Sure, it might make them less uncomfortable with the real mysteries of their world. But it comes at the price of a loss of control over their own lives, which is how they are then exploited by those who represent religion to them. The history of this exploitation, both material and mental, is both consistent and deplorable.

>>To declare from on high that the beauty of art of religious character is but a tool to deceive and exploit places you in barren ground.<<

It was more an observation than a declaration, and made as an observer rather than a judge. But we can safely let that pass, I feel, and concentrate on the outcome.

What do you personally think was the impact on the general public of the display of (to them) unimaginable opulence, complete with a) gold ornaments on the altar, b) the sounds of a choir singing Taverner's Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas, c) evening sunlight filtering through stained glass, d) the waft of incense as the robed figures processed down the nave etc. etc.?

In my imagination, it would have created a distinct atmosphere of "us and them", with the priesthood using the imagery to underline their authority over the peasants, on the basis that they were conveying divine will through their stewardship.

What does your imagination tell you?

>>Peter's writings here are a source of fine appreciation of the good, the true and the beautiful that can only but inspire the human open to the transcendent to which it journeys - onwards and upwards.<<

Only if you have already succumbed to the underlying mythology.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=stages%2Fof+CONCIOUSNESS&i

STATES..[time/station\standing]..
AND STAGES..[settings/symptoms\situation]

full and free Spirituality is../a long journey from maximum unconsciousness to self to other higher/or lower into cosmic consciousness.

We can distinguish 10 stages of Consciousness HIGHLIGHTING infinite states/on this journey.

These stages are characterized by what consumes the..aTE (attentions of Time and Energy) ..of the personal occupations//and\space/face/place\of spiritual progress by process /resession\REGRESSING/OR\\PROGRESSING...

[our preferences/obsessions/ foibles/hobbies relations/negations \duty/service/interrelations obligations and occupations/Advance/us spiritually/or retard/us\nothing is of null-affectation.]

attentive-Time-Energy OCCUPATION/includes attenuation of our emotions/and all we THINK&#8594;DO&#8594;HAVE/feel say feel hear speak//write/utter/wish/hope/sense/or embody/ENTRUST HOUSE.OR HOST

emotives of trust
promotives of lust'
correct.righteous/just.

BE-IT/of the personalization/or generalization:..the time,timing and interests, goals, desires, thoughts, planning, resources, money and resources, and efforts.

These stages are, therefore, a progression of values and motivations in life-states..in the beginning/simple SURVIVAL/consumes/our energies and time..

then..comfort/security/nurture/pleasure/amusement/bemusement..simultude.language sense SELF AWARENESS/feelings/Wariness/of other/sensual-awareness

curiosity/faith/trust/BETRAYAL

then/[THE DARK/NIGHT\OF/THE SOUL[REALITY/HITS]..FEELINGS OF GRIEF/LOSS/REJECTION/ACCEPTANCE
NEED/TO\KNOW/

SEARCH\TEST\Analise/reflect/practice/formulate recognize perform/ense possibility/realize probability[see an awakened reality/loose it/find it again]

try to explain/try to retain/try to amalgamate/TRY to demonstration/seek to negate/hesitate/relate/negotiate.

delineate delegate/hesitate/masticate/debate de'bait/stimulate recognize resonate envision/yearning

interrelation/negotiation
/marry\betroth/wed =*BE BIRTHED/re incarnate.

*bare/bones/plagiarized/from
http://www.psycanics.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=12