“Firstly, it would abandon any idea that the thinking individual may come to clear and certain truths by means of his own reason. Descartes' promise has turned out to be absurd.”
And yet, we should be convinced of certain truths by means of your reason.
You would describe this as a 'reasonable' argument?

“The players in the New Testament recognize Jesus as the Christ and this happens to the most unlikely men and women. There is something in Jesus that is overwhelmingly appealing that once one has encountered Him then everything changes, it is the end of a world. There are no foundations here,...”
Actually, for a religion that now relies entirely on faith, how remarkable that those “most unlikely men and women” were persuaded by physical demonstrations; miracle after miracle. The contemporary followers of Jesus were not persuaded so much by faith in a “beautiful world” as by a man's ability to heal the sick, feed the multitudes, catch fish, walk on water, and ultimately, come back from the dead.
The evidence suggests a significant percentage of Christians -if not a majority- are more persuaded by the possibility of surviving death than creating the beautiful world Jesus dreamed of; particularly in the areas of abjuring material wealth and treating others with courtesy, charity and respect.

"While ideology would imprison us, the "way" sets us free."

It will be no surprise that for those of us unburdened by the demands of awe your free 'way' is also an ideology... yours.

"...a ground cleared of false presupposition and false foundations."

except for your own, which is obviously, no impediment for the contention of a post modern idiotheology.

Do you think it is as well that god is immortal since religions will take that long to get it right?

Best of luck.

The author has written a reasoned argument to support his belief.
However, this belief is based upon the erroneous claim that an historical Jesus ever existed, thus the category of belief which he espouses, Christianity, is one of pure conjecture.
It is interesting to note in how much detail proponents can go to advance their arguments when they base vast amounts of argument around false premises.
Every person creates their own thoughts, words, and actions; the responsibility is theirs entirely, not that of some mythical supreme being.
To add a reversal to a memorable quote, "I think - therefore, I am."
"I am, therefore I think".

What a load of waffle.

No doubt, if the author had lived a thousand years ago in Mexico, he'd have written a treatise on why, without evidence, we should construct a baseless philosophical system that leads us to maintain our belief in the feathered serpent god Quetzalcoatl.

My question for the author - if your beliefs are wrong, how would you know? If you can't answer that, then you've no business telling others to follow them.

Descartes promise has turned out to be absurd! What an absurd thing to claim!
Peter, you clearly haven't learned to meditate, or follow the Master's advice; and, seek ye first the kingdom of heaven within?
How do you think, yours and other Masters, gained access to wisdom as old as the universe? Well?
And real meditation that reportedly can cure incurable cancer and the like, is a deep silent respectful listening and not the internal introspective dialogue your lot patently and repeatedly misrepresent it to be?
The real problems for, I believe, judgmental, misguiding control freak orthodoxy, and after pedophile priests, is people turning their backs in their literal millions and toward their own internal resources; and away from an orthodoxy, that is anything but, following in their Master's footsteps?
Rhrosty.

Yes complete self-serving one dimensional waffle.

Waffle which is completely convicted of and stuck in the naturalistic fear saturated mortal-meat-body world view, with not even a hint of anything to do with the esoteric dimensions of the human body-mind-complex, and which certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with Being Consciousness and Bliss.

Conventional religion or the kind that Sells promotes is the cult of Narcissus that has always suppressed the ecstasy that is natural to human beings.

Religious life must be based on actual Realization and experience. Communion without difference. God-Realization without difference.

True Religion is about self-transcending God-Communion and it invades your life and necessarily requires that you change every aspect of your life. It is about entering more and more profoundly into the Well of Thoughtless Self-Radiant Being or Blissfull Consciousness Itself. The Infinite Feeling of Being, of Love-Bliss Consciousness Itself. It is vaster than the conditional domain, without center or bounds, without the slightest difference.

Tragically left-brained "theology" shuts down even the possibility of entering into that Radiant Process.
With reference to "Paul" the left-brained letter always instantaneously shuts down the Living Spirit or the intrinsic Being-Consciousness-Bliss that is our Real condition.

The body-mind is a mere appearance floating in an Infinite Sea of Undifferentiated Brightness.

Three references:
http://www.consciousnessitself.org
http://global.adidam.org/books/religion-reality
http://global.adidam.org/books/gift-of-truth-itself

Peter

Thanks for another thought-provoking piece and a constructive one, explaining where you think theology should go as well as what is currently wrong with it!

While I have great respect for Barth, I wonder if his theology is a little too circular in its reasoning and referencing. Perhaps we can’t argue the existence of a creator from the existence of creation (though St. Paul might disagree – Romans 1:20). But to entirely separate theology from other means of human knowing ultimately denies the meaningfulness of free will or the proposal that humanity is created in God’s image. Bonhoeffer’s famous critique of Barth, that he proposed a “positivist doctrine of revelation”, seems to me to have merit.

IF THERE IS A WRECK-AGE..
'the church/is stepping away from
at least look honestly at this first step

<<..My suggestion was..that far from opposing..the conclusion that god does not exist..[as a being in the universe,]..>

that dont mean the holy spirit isnt being all being
[ie just because jesus isnt god..dont mean that god didnt sustain jesus his living[indeed that jesus was jesus because he lived knowing it was gods will he live

its ridiculous to say gos dont exist[he is the sun]
the bible say we cannot look upon him and live[and looking at the sun/will burn ya blind..not to mention sunburn.

so having given away/god..what else ya giving up..on
would you that jesus/god or the holy spirit/gave up on you?

<<..the Church should recognize its truth>>

GOD IS THE SUN/SCIENCE SAYS SO
AND SCIENCE IS RIGHT..[OK WE KNOW JESUS ISNT GOD..
BUT WE ALSO KNOW GOD Exists=the sun/but by tossing god..ya toss out the holy spirit..too

<<.. and that in the modern era it has,;by and large, built its theology on false foundations.>>

the corner stone of the church is peter/peter is sound
the other corner stoner is jesus..god and the holy spirit
[just admit..the holy spirit thing/and we forgive you saying god dont exist

ye shall have none before the sun of the holy spirit
ye can blaspheme the sun but not deney/the holy living spirit sustaining all living as per emmanual[god with[in]..us..[all]

<<For example theology cannot begin with an attempt to prove the existence of God from nature or logic>>

cause science has done the science

<<..i.e...the existence of God cannot be built on foundations external..to the God..that Christians worship>>

THE HOLY SPIRIT SUSTAINS LIFE FROM WITH-IN

<<...>>If we do this we only get an abstraction of our own making that essentially leaves the field to atheism.

THEY DONT want it
Too many of you already saying god don't exist
thats their line..not yours..yours is look there is god
here is jesus who showed us the holy living spirit/within/god without.

you sure your working for jesus
well rebuild his church/ya on the wrong team

another glaring error/quote..<<...Anti-foundationalist theology recognizes..that when evidence..for..the existence of God..is found apart from God revealing Himself..to humanity..then the living God that Christians worship is lost.>>

thats hypnotized you..into thinking god isnt revealing his greatness to you every second of your life.refusing to see the bleeding obvious.

see the light/from the sun..god is revealing himself
see that leaf growing that bird chirping..that rat gnoring/the dog snoring/sight seen in gods light..reveals YOUR Seeing[see by your sight]

you hear some vibrations/you hear others
god opens your sensES..but you say no he hasnt revealed himself

well prove HE HAS CONCEALED?
GOD ISNT HIDING..science says we came from the sun
indeed let there be light life love logic/your seeing hearing smelling god everywhere inside of every..living thing..your the teacher/but its the blind leading the blind..bad service is disservice

<<..The great Swiss theologian,>>was a fool..<<< Karl Barth understood this and refused..>>..to see the winess of gods creation..lol..

[i see nuthin..no<<..evidence from nature as a support for the existence of God>>..thats purely insane..gods work/has his mark on it

i looked upon gods face[once]..the sun didnt blind me
in fact i saw it with the eyes of a child/saw 'god'/looks like an engorged nipple/just squirting out life force/light..upon his creation.

i saw how a baby..sukkles readily upon seeing the nipple
the nipple..is in gods image..[the sun and its carolla...aerola

[ohh la la]..the father..looks like a nipple
little wonder the sages couldnt LOOK UPON HIS FAce

so you see how you been decieved
nature reflects gods creative instinct/know the artist/by knowing your masters handiwork/all natural creation/that unatural is of man/beast tide.wind..that sUPRA-NATURAL..your missing altogether/a native with his fetish..is closer to god than you

get ye behind me satan
your betraying your calling..you deny god
yet you enjoy and get fat from his suK

HE SHAKES HIS HEAD..let..the dead tend the dead.

Rhian,
It is good to see someone coming to grips with my stuff instead of brushing it of in a superficial fashion.
I do not think I or Barth are for dismissing all other knowledge. It is just that we agree (with the gospel of John) that the proper study of God is the study of Christology. I would look for a reversal of how we see relationships in this. It is not the world that illuminates the gospel but the gospel that illuminates the world. Since the Enlightenment it has been the former and the result is that we have made God into an object that we can inspect. This disastrous loss of transcendence has made us into titans who walk the earth but have little understanding of what our lives might be about.

This has been described as a shift from ontology in which Being is central to function or causation and outcome being central.

I have heard of Bonhoeffer's criticism and have read Barth's response, he did not seem to see the point.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

SELLS-SELL/swell/..quote..<<..it is just..that we agree>>

but..its just you..in the know..agreeing
that you more clever than we..agree..[agree to speak..in code]

<<>.(with the gospel of John)..>>
where..in johns gopil/1john..jon/john..john 1..thats the clever one[see your missing on how to communicate/with others not as 'wise'/privileged .educated.voiced..in abstractions..as you/why even bother posting openly..just speak/in latin/be done..with the fictions based on names...opinions..its rote clap..trap/pap

you agree/john/which one..
they are numbed/if you wanted to...'be'..clear/you could be..

john/somewhere/somehow..is said/To have..said<<>.that the proper study of God .is the study of Christology.>>

thats plainly absurd..[ignoring the perversion..of john..1]
god created//jesus..in year zero/not..'in the beginning'[god created the word-world..[whats the problem..with quoting chapter/verse?[you couldnt do any worse/than..your double-speak..you use/now.

<<..I would look..for..a reversal..of how..we see relationships..in this.>>[john this..or..the other commentator..on this/THAT..WHAT?

<<>>It is not the world..that illuminates..the gospel..but..the gospel that illuminates..the world.>>

lol..says him who confounds./the world with elite word/exclusive secret gnosis/speaking..in names-code/to the over educated...living in the artifice..of word construction/dead word..ignoring gods living creation

worldly satiatio..wordy..con granulation
[its mutual-masturbation..wordy mastication]

<<Since..the Enlightenment..>
it has..only gotten darker

<<..it has been...the former>>

former lightness.or former darkness..or
forming informing reforming..deforming..that..of the/true former..or form

[has?]..been/former,,<<..and..the result..is
that...we have made God..[lol]..into an object..[word?].that we can inspect.>>

god..is the sun/we are examining her/
BUT What else..would we expect..but..inspect..her work.
science knows..life was begat..from the sun/get over the other junk/

lift the scales..off ya eyes/you can ignore me/but dont ignore the graceful mercy/of the living light..sustaining your life

<<>.This disastrous..loss of transcendence>>
ohhh..dear/lord..<<..has made us into titans>>

in thine own minds

<<..who walk the earth..but..lol
have little understanding..of what our lives..might be about...>>

jesus wept..
i say to you;...
love one and other/by works..not words..[its not rocket/science]

but i forget...you live in the realm...of WORDY/WORLD-theory...[of words wrote by names]..forgetting the fool..confounds the wise in their own eyes..

<<>>This has been described..as a shift..from ontology..in which Being.[what?]..is central...to function or causation..and outcome being central.>>

if only..you knew/what..you
just parroted..back...was huge..[when it/was..first written]

<<.I have heard..of Bonhoeffer's criticism...and
[u]..have read..Barth's response,..he did not..seem to see..the point>..either

and...because he didnt..you cant?
or wont?..
have you read kant?

Peter,

>>when evidence for the existence of God is found apart from God revealing Himself to humanity then the living God that Christians worship is lost. <<

This sounds like “when evidence for the existence of Peter is found apart from Peter revealing himself (e.g. in this article) to us then the living Peter is lost”, but what does it mean?

I think you do not have to be a Barthian to “refuse evidence from nature as a support for the existence of God”, only have a clarity about what “evidence from nature” (if by that you mean evidence acceptable within natural science) can and cannot do. Or did you mean to say that a Christian should not look for inspiration for his/her faith from God’s creation as studied by natural science?

Again, what a pity that in your defence of Barth you did not quote him explicitly to support your exposition of his views.

>> The above consists of a brief sketch of what theology will look like in the age that comes after the modern.<<

This assumes that Christian “theology after the modern” will be built on Karl Barth rather than other theologian who interprets/interpreted differently both the Book of Scripture and the Book of Nature. Can you be sure about this?

ITS LIKE WATCHING A TRAin wreck
alex certainly nails it..this ring was foRGED FOR EVIL
[16 minute/mark]
http://rss.infowars.com/20140409_Wed_Alex.mp3

anyhow..more onselling/quote..<<.<<..There is something in Jesus that is overwhelmingly appealing that..>>..[thats just the name dropING AFFECT..].WE AevereytRE ALL GUILTY..

<<>.once one has encountered...Him..then everything changes,>>
but sadly..people cant meet..him..if they got the wrong idea..of what he is

hing/changes?..then<<..it is the end of a world.?>>
did you hear alex..at 19/minute mark?

<<..There are no foundations here,>>

of course not..end of the world/means we are all mostly dead
how is described well in todays show/the ideal for them..is set us up to die..off the street/so make us feel tired/we die in our bed
this end time ccc rap is jusrt words so you think?
its over peter..read thyne own words


<<..There are no foundations here,>>*<<.only an overwhelming beauty.>>

please reread/thyne own original texts

<<..It was this beauty..that was the death knoll..of the ancient gods..many fold living creations/we are talking of mass deaths..of whole nations.

<<..It goes without saying..that doing theology anew.demands that we turn our back on...the isolated and distanced god..>>

you couldnt face
who you ignored..who you say dont exist

isolated..by whom?
distranced by who?..<<of the first cause..that has a plan for the universe.>>

WHEN OUR SUN[GOD]..ONLY AFFECTS ONE MERE SOLAR SYSTEM
THE UNIVERSE=THE WHOLLY spirit

<<.. This speculative deity,..that only exists because we need an explanation/as to why there is anything at all,..is displaced by Christ...who becomes the origin..lol..of all..'things'>>

is a huge massive alienating lie
but not one thats worth us all lining up..to die

the suns...of the holy spirit...that fell from heaven
with a huge big bang..its is the suns..that becomes the origin..of all things..[after half their number fell from heaven.]..its wasted on you peter..what ya selling..to who?

George,
Perhaps the boot should be on the other foot. What evidence from nature would you propose can be used for the existence of God? It seems to me from a long study of the history of natural theology around Newton and his friend Samuel Clarke that any god so proved is of the Monarchical monotheistic identity that does not approximate the Triune identity. Any reliance on evidence in nature is vulnerable to the next set of experiments that proves that the evidence can easily be proved to be the result of pure mechanics. Of course this falls apart for quantum mechanics. So should we evoke god at the quantum level?. Of what importance would this god be to us death bound creatures who are confronted by what Yannarus describes at the ontological problem?
Best wishes
Peter

Thank you Peter for this excellent, clear and superb exposition!

The final step beyond modernism, thus beyond objectivism, I believe, will be to drop the last relic of dependence on the material, that is of the essential-necessity for Jesus the man of Nazareth.

While we believe that the historical Jesus showed us the Way, we should cherish (as did Jesus himself) the Way rather than Jesus the man. If we were then to find, as suggested by Ponder, that Jesus never existed, it could never shake our faith!

Yuyutsu,
I agree but with reservations. Jesus often pointed away from himself, and that saves us from Jesuolotry but it is important that the Word did become flesh, and dwelt among us etc. The council of Chalcedon emphasised the two natures of Christ and to emphasise the fleshly nature would be to sever the connection of the Word to the world. This would result in a spiritualised religion that was not strongly political as Christianity plainly is.

Peter,

Thank you for the thoughtful article.

Your comments of course address the issue of epistemology, and concern the question as to the nature of truth and how it is we come about the acquisition knowledge.

Christian epistemology seems to me to foreground the relational aspect of knowledge. Meaning is realized only from within the context of the life of the Christian community. Classical Christianity continues to maintain that truth is 'traditioned' from one generation to the next, which would seem to go counter, or at least condition, the claim that the "way sets us free." Does it denote further fragmentation? Do the "many paths" preclude a unity of faith?

How post post-modern are we really?

Sells
I don’t think you or Barth dismiss other forms of knowledge as appropriate within their spheres, but as I understand it you dismiss both reason and material evidence as a basis for authentic belief in God. Only God can reveal God. Essentially that turns theology into a giant circular argument – albeit, in Barth’s case, an incredibly well-developed and internally coherent one. I see “faith seeking understanding” as more of a halfway house: the truths of faith are confirmed by human experience appropriated with the help of reason. But perhaps I’m too simplistic in my reading of Barth – I have spent much less time on him than you. Can you point me to his response to Bonhoeffer?

Sells and Yuyutsu
I think the reality of Jesus’ human existence is necessary to Christian theology. It is the very particularity of that life – grounded and expressed in a specific geography, history, culture and religion – that makes it able to express the divine to the human. It is also what differentiated Christianity from Gnosticism: if all we need is an abstract principle of goodness and spirit, we could have stuck with Greek philosophy.

William Temple described Christianity as the most materialistic of religions – by which he didn’t mean it values fast cars and big TVs, but that its focus is grounded in the reality of human existence in the here and now. God pronounces creation “good”; Jesus turns water into wine. I don’t think Christianity is sustainable without a human Jesus (which I’m sure Daffy and our atheist friends will agree with).

Rhian,

"reason and material evidence as a basis for authentic belief in God"

This misses Peter's point: reason and material evidence don't prove the existence of God.

Theology in not an argument, circular or otherwise.

how/to diss-miss..the cause...*of everything

101..SELLS...NAME*DROPPING..<<Newton..and his/friend..Samuel-Clarke>>
PRESUMABLE SAID..words..to THE affect..OF..

<<.What evidence..from nature/would you propose..can be used..for the existence of God?..>>..default/position=its..all/of..god

THEN..<<that any..*god..so proved..is..of the Monarchical monotheistic>>..WTF..<<.....identity..[?]..[AND?]..that does not approximate..the..*Triune-identity.>>..

the/holy-spirit..isnt..'god'.
so..you..resort to name dropping...IMPLIED/partial/biased..QUOTES AND AN..ULTIMATUM

<<..Any reliance..on evidence..[in nature?]..is vulnerable>>
I LOVE..THE BLANKET DISMISSAL..any..OF EVERYTHING..

VULNERABLE..<<to..[lol]..the next set...of experiments>>..[a religious-ritual?]..<<that proves>>..nuthin/much..if anything..at all.

IT..IN FACT PROVES..<<..that..the evidence..can easily be..[dis]..proved..to be..the result..of pure..[only]..mechanics>>..

even if not..simply/by..clever wording/exclusion..OF..all/HIS CREATION'S

IGNORING..OF COURSE..thus
THE CHIEF/true..MECHANICAL..[CREATIVE]..ENGINEER..OF COURSE

WHAT..we are/seeing here..iS ATHEIST..INDUCED..institutional/academic/BLINDNES..where..we know..the dates/names..but ignore..the mechanics..

no/know..[NUTHIN..TO SEE THERE..
NO.?..HOW DO..you/know...LOL]..wether god is.even/subject..or objective..or mechanic..so/certainly/..such/sure..finality...?

please realize..these people[academia]..are deceived..as much/as..they/decieve..materialistic/rewards...read/satan..has/so blinded them..To even/now..witnessing..life's..living/witness..[surrounding/us..as not anything..god physically..created/be..gone..from this realm..father?

result?..they see..nuthun/being/blinded/to\the bleeding obvious[all around them]

<<... Of course..this falls apart..for quantum mechanics.>>[off course?]

lol..of course..[after-all/we
are too clever/we alone..'know..it all/..lol
but lets..systematically[rote]..ignore that proof too?

DEMONS/CRY..GREAT..headed that one...off
at..the pass..[so..now..DO/GOD-ERs..cant prove anything]..so there..naa naa naa

<<..So...should we..evoke god>>..[insanity]

you provoke/god..even now..<<..at the quantum level?>>
so/whywaste ya breath?

<<Of what importance..would..*this god be..to us>>..to/you..lot..nuthin...so...yeah your right..

how do you sleep.at night?.....taking money/resources..given to god knowers..then*..ye know him not?..HUH?

YOU/even..deny him..CAUSE..and affect..in reality..[as if..the idea alone..is of..null affect

sells..MATEY..its pathetic
it really is..what is that term?..hypocrite?
you even...forgo the eternal spirit..you silly..BOYtWit WIT

<<..death bound...creatures...>>includes/you..deluded-few]..who are confronted..>>rather/than..comforted]..<<..by what Yannarus.?..describes...at[as?]..the ontological*problem>>of a living loving god

TOO/MANY...NAME DROPPING..PRETENDERS..are..WEARING SHEEP-[SKINS
[IF YOU CANT REVEAL..GOD...BY THYne..WORKS..you been deceived..out of trying

go ahead/quote..the/next..[ganti theod]o-isms..[
get out/of your temple..ou/.]..of the god business
write about things...you know..[godless/atheist writings]

what..ya cant find..a real job?
selling/stuff...you know/believe?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16112&page=0
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16191&page=0

RECALL..THE EQUAL WAGES/PARRABLE=really applies....to GRACE..[lucky..eh?]
but heck..if ya deny reality..you deny..words/of god..too.?

your luckey jesus.isnt telling ya...a few home truths..

[oh..ye..unfaithful name/dropper]..
you see gods..self perfecting creation all around you/..and..yet..see nuffing...[poor thing?]

the next person..you see..look deeply..into
their eyes/..on the surface..its mirroring you/but look into the darkness/your looking at god...the one you deny...in writing..repeatedly

[whats with the peters..[sic]..of the world?...[all into denial?]
HEAR/THE ..feather duster/CROWING....MOOO?..

what benefits..your workings..to the one..inside of everyone
by denying..everyone..and everything?

Ponder.

You said, "However, this belief is based upon the erroneous claim that an historical Jesus ever existed, ...."

Can you back up this statement?

Dear Rhian,

I believe that Christianity can renew itself and adjust its theology accordingly.

There is of course no Christianity without Jesus, but historicity should not be required for keeping a vibrant Christian life.

The story and ideal of Jesus will still be told for ages to come and continue to inspire people to embark on the Way to God, but whether or not Jesus was once a historical man, is not important.

As I am not Christian myself, I believe that not one, but many perfect human examples like Jesus, who are one with God, were sent down across the ages to help mankind when religion was faltering, when the Way was lost and evil was on the ascent. Whether this or that particular example was in fact historical and verifiable is therefore less of essence. I trust that God would not allow the Way to be lost for those who seek Him: whether He uses this device or the other, this person or the other, is not that crucial.

So, Peter, if we apply your principles to, say, rat-catching, the result would be that the last thing the rat-catcher should ever do is to confirm that there are, in fact, rats to be caught -- that would be a sign of appalling incompetence. No, the rat-catcher should go ahead and lay their baits and set out their traps on the blind unreasoning assumption that the rats are there; and lo, when no rats are caught, that only demonstrates that they are superfine rats of striking ineffability and incomparable evanescence!

My only question is: when rat-catching reaches this desirable state of profundity, who is going to pay the bills?

Peter (Sells),

>>What evidence from nature would you propose can be used for the existence of God?<<

None, I thought this was clear from my numerous posts here.

>>any god so proved is of the Monarchical monotheistic identity that does not approximate the Triune identity<<

I do not disagree, certainly God cannot be “proved”. I just do not understand where the God of Philosophers, contradicts God’s Triune identity, i.e. this additional “inner structure” that Christians see in Him.

Neither do I see the relevance of quantum mechanics to the complementary revelations of the same God in both the “books”, that of Nature and that of Scripture, to those who can discern and accept both revelations.

I am not trying to contradict you only understand Karl Barth from your articles.

George,
I think that the Triune identity precludes Monarchical monotheism and vice versus. It seems to me that Ockham's razor is appropriate here. The above identities are two views of the same thing, one is redundant. Furthermore, you cannot get to the Trinity via Monarchical monotheism. Look at Aquinas and the uneasy transition from the God that he could prove exists from nature and from scripture to the God who is Triune.

Peter (Sells),

I am sorry, I overlooked the “monarchical” part that as an explicit adjective to monotheism I have never heard of before. If it is defined as being against the Trinitarian structure (as it is, I presume in Islam and also Judaism) then of course, you have a contradiction.

However, I am sure there are many Christian scientists who see in nature they investigate the work of God, without claiming He has to be “monarchical” thus contradicting a “Triune identity”. Similarly for many philosophers interested in metaphysics. [Besides, already Genesis speaks of the “Spirit of God” (ruach Yahweh?) without understanding it (actually her) as being another God, different from the God Creator. You certainly understand these things better than I.]

I don’t think Aquinas wrote about proofs in the logical sense we understand the word today. From what I know, his Five Ways are today referred to as five arguments.

Sells.

Thank you for the thoughtful article.

Your comments of course address the issue of epistemology, and concern the question as to the nature of truth and how it is we come about the acquisition knowledge.

Christian epistemology seems to me to foreground the relational aspect of knowledge. Meaning is realized only from within the context of the life of the Christian community. Classical Christianity continues to maintain that truth is 'traditioned' from one generation to the next, which would seem to go counter, or at least condition, the claim that the "way sets us free." Does it denote further fragmentation? Do the "many paths" preclude a unity of faith?

How post post-modern are we really?

RyanF/quote..<<,the thoughtful article.>>
yes..i found the article..logic once i read beginning at the end/and working backwards..line by line..but the rejection of creation/as proof of anything rejects all materialist stuff/including winess hard texts..everything..including us and our thoughts

its the closing off
OF ALL SENSORY/MATERIAL/living/REAL STUFF I RESENT
but then you throw in..yet more/other big words

<<>.Your comments..of course address the issue of epistemology>>

,,..A branch of philosophy..that investigates
the origin,..nature,..methods,..and limits of/human knowledge..
THAT SORT/OF Hangs on materialistic things..THAT AFFIRM...Confirm..OR REFUTE...THE PHILOSOPHY-[SOP]..behind the reality/witnessed by us all.

,issues..<<and concern the question..as to the nature of truth and how it is we come..about the..acquisition...[OF?]..knowledge.>>from theses/opinion/creed or other abstraction derivative..of our experiences of reality?

<<>>Christian epistemology..[philosophy]..seems to me to foreground the relational*.aspect of knowledge...Meaning is realized only from within the context*.of the life of the Christian community>>

THAT SEEMS AS FAR REMOVED/from the lived experiences of the rest of us/not stuck in an allegorical parody..of structured reality/[where names mean imposed realities]

.<<..Classical Christianity>>..?...[unmarried priests/virginal nuns?..living by theories..of names in books]..<<<continues to maintain..that truth is 'tradition-ed'>>..[tradition-ing?..passed on?..ritualized/abstracted/limited/closeted/Insular/SEGREGATED/ISOLATED?]..<<from one generation..[SCHOOL?].to the next,..which would seem to go..counter,...>>

now here..MY MIND SEES..A TRADITIONAL FAMILY UNIT
[IE..THE NORMALITY/..REALITY..for most of us/not closeted..in creed]..

BUT THATS NOT..WHERE YOU TOOK IT

counter traditionalism..<<..or at least condition,
the claim...that..the.."way sets us free.">>

great point..BUT/its not designed..to set anyone free..
indeed being run..by non-breeding/yet presumably loving caring..'Christians'..EACH SERVING..to release the suffering/for EACH OTHER..

BUT HECK..IS THIS THE REALITY,,we see?
a living loving active/reality /that lets us see..or that blinds us..cant we simply shut reality out/ignore it..just LET IT BE?..WE SHALL SEE.

CTD

but then...its a closed world/CLOSETED-ACADREMIA
that seeks TO EXCLUDE..GODS CREATION..NATURAL REALITY..
ritualized by rote/creed/overriding common sense...into a mind/set..artifice[UN-natural ANTITHESES]...feigning the revealing of the unknown..but in denial even of the external naturalistic/god gifted/realities..

[NOT EVEN HAVING PETS NOR KIDS...
yet more OVER SIMPLIFICATION..TO ground their surrealistic ARTI-FICAL-reality.

even/now..growing ever further..AWAY/from the old hands-on priests seeking wisdom in nature/.dirt/seeds growing breeding like GREGGORY/who foundED/mendalism..[god given reassoting of favourable traits

Mendel, Mendelism. Gregor Johann Mendel (the first name was taken onentrance to his order), b. 22 July, 1822, at Heinzendorf near Odrau, in AustrianSilesia; http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/8478247

im sure/that.it Does it denote further fragmentation

<<>>Do the "many paths"..preclude a unity of faith?>>

most certainly..all reality
leads us to the eternal/internal oneness..[wholly spirit]
shall not..all christian paths[service to other]..flead to/the truth of the son/ruit of the sun and the wholly.living omnipresent/life /love mercy-full UNSEEN/spirit

revealed...ONLY by the sun sustaining THE Son..to de-light/RE IGNITE the holy of mens..living spirit..[to see me..is to see he..is to see..HIM IN WE..;..the he sustaining the living in thee/me]..

as jesus said...where ever two or more/are gathered..in my name..there aM I..same same..for el..the living spirit/that delights the son into sun..living by gift of the only omnipresent living one/most HIGH MOST WHOLE.

SEE PART OF THE WORKS..OF THE SUN
WE SEE THE SON..to see the son/we know he is sustained his living by the sun/..a true son/of sun..and the most holy one

DITTO GOD..see the sun..see the holy one
DITTO..the most holy wholly spirit..seen in everyone
sustaining every living..*being its life/LIVING..from within.

RyanF,
In the gospel of John we have the most developed theology and Jesus using the 'I am" sayings.
Like god from the burning bush this is the prime ontological statement. It is also the basis of Christian epistemology. The believer participates in Being in that Christ is in us and we in Him.None of this relies on evidence from nature or on arguments from philosophy (perhaps on Heidegger?) In other words Jesus is the answer to the ontological problem and no causal problem.

How post modern are we? The description is going out of fashion mainly because most of our thinking is still very modern. We are on the cusp of something new and for want of a better description we use the term. But one thing is certain, modernity is failing on many fronts.

George,
When working on hearing I often marvelled at the intricacy of the cochlea. I think that we can be in awe of nature and understand nature as Being as we are Being and yet not make causal connections with the activity of God. To do so in the way we do is a late development from the seventeenth century.

here you can listen[materially]..of what the prophets foresaw
[especially in the middle]..its like watching a train wreck
but its time to chose sides..is the church with us..on one of the mountains we are meant to level..or make smooth.

http://rss.infowars.com/20140410_Thu_Alex.mp3

ye are gods..not folly of man
but you cant serve two masters..from here on
its time to chose..[remembering that the three represent...only one]
and your the one.

its funny peter has seen/the amassing function..of the cochlea..
[im presuming structurally]..but.the process BY which we actually 'year'/..ie recognize..this sound as meaning that/is so much more.

science isnt even sure yet what the brain..[let alone the mind]..'does'..but there ya go..another great topic/we maybe can get on with/later..right now its about 'these times being shorted'..and you might not know god..but you know these are the times we were told of/lest they be shortened..gods gift was wasted

jesus efforts for naught..nought/nadda/nuthin
pearl before swine.jesus told us..give back to Caesar
well its time to anti up..or quit the play...were all Yan-keys now.

http://rss.infowars.com/20140410_Thu_Alex.mp3

we live in the age of plenty
why so many crying..end the war...by the forces of satan..upon gods creatives.

however it ends/we deserved it
thank you lord..for all you do
yes..its happening..now/now what?

Yuyutsu,
Christ can never be reduced to an idea. If this were the case the Christian "idea" would compete with all of the other ideas in the world for recognition that it is the truth. Depts of theology would dedicate all of their time on proving that the Christian idea is more true than all of the other ideas. It would also mean that we could simply convey the idea to others and they could accept or reject it.

As my post above indicates Jesus is about ultimate human being, it cannot be summed up in an idea or manifesto but can only be encountered and followed. This is why we have Christian worship where the encounter happens par excellence.

Dear Peter,

Nobody can ever reduce Christ to an idea.

People may have this or that idea ABOUT Jesus Christ, but that makes no difference as to who Jesus actually is.

What is important about our ideas of Christ is whether and to what extent they show us the Way to God and encourage us to embark on it - and this can vary from age to age. In an age, for example, where ideas tend to alienate rather than attract people, it's best to forego ideas altogether.

Proving things to be true (or "more true") is a feature of modernism, so would not be necessary in a "post-modern" era. In your article you mentioned for example the alternative of overwhelmingly appealing BEAUTY, so perhaps beauty will take the place of "truth" and become the determining-factor for people to want to follow Jesus, or perhaps it will be something else, new altogether. Perhaps even departments of theology will convert into departments of art...

You say that "It would also mean that we could simply convey the idea to others and they could accept or reject it.", but isn't this the case already, where people are given free will?

There is of course nothing comparable with a personal encounter with Christ, but only a few are fortunate enough to have it. The masses, even while their bodies is present in Christian worship, are not there themselves.

So long as we are still immersed in modernism, regardless of our dislike for it, faith can be challenged by science. At any time Ponder could possibly find archaeological evidence that Jesus the man of Nazareth did not exist - and then what?

Personally, I believe that on the balance of probabilities, Jesus the man did live on earth and did show the Way by his personal example, but my faith will not be shaken if proven otherwise since I don't give a hoot about material science or allow it to direct my life. However, most people today are still modern, so their spirit would still be adversely affected by such a discovery (if made).

Peter (Sells),

>>I think that we can be in awe of nature … and yet not make causal connections with the activity of God.<<

Of course, we can, for instance atheists do it. As I understand it, “make causal connections with the activity of God” means simply seeing God as the creator (Genesis) of the natural world, the interpretation of which matured along with the “maturing” of our understanding of the physical world, an understanding that contributes towards the understanding St Anselm apparently had in mind.

I am not sure what 17th century development you are referring to.

ONE ACT/done..for other
IS WORTH A MILLION..words

and it/that one good deed for other..that..is the value behind an IMPLICIT WAY..we may chose to walk with our teacher..;..talk is cheap..[its by our works wee reveal the christ within..tO THOSE 'OTHER'..of gods sheep..LOST WITH-OUT...A KIND VOICE..that speaks out his works..by further works..with or without words.

a christian/without works/returns but the coin he was given
well may he know the gift that by gods grave has saved the wretch
but he saved none..but the one saved by an other.

all workers get the same wages..grace mercy.love life logic
its not how well you lived..but how many witness the truth you revealed.

a gift may be offered or promised or given
but the chists gift is only accepted..by passing it on.

WHAT DID YOU..DO WITH YOUR GIFT OF GRACE LOVE MERCY?
WITH THE STRESSING POINT..OF DO..not so much the gift..but what YOU DID..with it.

many more are forgiven
than fore-give..[ye can talk of forgiving..but its not a given..til you forgive.]..by forgiving other you accept thyne own forgiveness..

you AFFIRM IT..by giving..it away..
by giving it away..you accept it/thus have the right to give it to other...knowing its giving is without price and cost/yet the highest value..a sun of light..[can give unto other..of de-light]

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0

THE BIGGEST HUMAN WIN..SINCE MOSUS LEFT EGYPT
OR SINCE THE ALAMO.or eureka STOCKADE..ITS HUGE
but was the church there...no

http://rss.infowars.com/20140414_Mon_Alex.mp3

has the media even told you of this victory of the little guy with peace against black shirted blackwater blackguards

when it came to SHOOTING US THE solders DISOBEYED command chain

jesus would be proud
but did the media even bother to TELL ANYONE?

http://rss.infowars.com/20140414_Mon_Alex.mp3

http://rss.infowars.com/20140414_Mon_Alex.mp3

Happy crossover.“The point of cleaning.OUR Heart..for Pesach is to remember..that we are leaving HOME/HEARTH,..leaving the things that constrict us.spiritually.” – Rabbi Shimon Raichik

“The message of Passover..is Freedom is won/not..on the battlefield but..in the classroom..and the home...Teach your children the history of freedom...if you want them TO live it.” -- Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks

“Pesach..is not only about..that good of "freedom from."
It is about..our having the freedom.."to"..[make the world a more sacred place..by expanding OUR Awareness..OF God's presence..living of/on/WITH/in...ALL OF it.” – Rabbi David A. Teutsch

“This is..OUR ONE TRUE true freedom:..Our ability to shape reality.

We Gave..to you..the power to initiate,.create..and change your/OWN reality..rather than only react..and,,SEEK/TO..survive it...How can we all educate..all/our children...to ///more fully/realize/true freedom..lies if freeing other?

Teach them..not to look at reality..as defining their acts
but to look...at their acts..as COLLECTIVELY re-defining reality.” – Yaacov Cohen

"Freedom..is within our grasp,..and Pesach reminds us..that we need find the will..to Teach."..TO REACH Above our station-- Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson

Passover.is a time of reflection..and..recalling joy.
When we emerge from our cocoon's/..Of doubt to fly freely
On the wings of loving service to other.

Blessed be ye..of the LIVING Lord
Who made heaven and earth...LIVE BY ENDLESS rebirth.
Happy Passover!

Passover Celebrates/God's Gift of..life/logic/light and Love
May you see..His mighty hand..In every detail..Of your life..WITH/in others living...Happy Passover

Shalom..from the prince/who Sought/THE PRICE.of /PEACE
On Passover and always..May you rejoice in..the living peace..only love of all..GODS pieces.[other] brings

“The mere thought..hadn't even begun to speculate
about..the merest possibility..of crossing..FROM..within/my SLEEPING mind.”

Douglas Adams

I Like/this quote
I dislike/THAT QUOTE
this quote.“If man...could be crossed with the cat,..it would improve man...but deteriorate the dog.”

Mark Twain quotes

I have noticed..even people..who claim
that...everything is predestined,..foreordained
and that....we can do nothing..to change it,.YET/..EVEN..They.look before..they cross the road.”

Stephen Hawking

“The word.''Christianity''..is already..a misunderstanding
in reality......there has been..only one Christian,..and he died on the Cross.”

Friedrich Nietzsche

“Like two..doomed ships..that pass..in storm..
we...had crossed/each other's way:...but.we made no sign,..we said no word,.we..had no word...to say.”

0Z*car wild

by..their works..will ye know them..\this quote/..as was rote..
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/a-look-at-the-new-warsaw-ghetto-we-know-as-gaza/
http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=24914
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/israel-blackmailing-palestinians-over-projects-1.1320266
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hfBla6r_CwE
http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/rigging-game-palestinians/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/what-happens-when-all-assets-have-become-too-expensive/

dear peter/2 the 2 peters
especially/the last link
ITS FUNNY..HOW ACCOMMODATING[Without being intimidating]?

WAKE-up..the..[pub*lick sir*vants]..have let us down
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152&page=0#178808

if/yOUR..PAYING THE BILLS/TIME..YOU KNEW WHY
http://board.freedomainradio.com/page/books/the_handbook_of_human_ownership_a_manual_for_new_tax_farmers.html
arjay/quote..<<>.This pre-occupation with illegals..>>

WILLING/TO..WORK..FOR FREE.<<<is a just a distraction from the real game of looting..our economies and keeping us peasants subjugated>>
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16224&page=0

see how they sell suburbia/REPLACEMENT/CULTURE..TO US..in sitcoms
we bought..into the dream..instead of family[PICK/A FAMILY/PICK..FRIENDS]

we are..'the team'[JUDGE/JUDY/COP-SHOWS/FOOTY/SOME BALL/'BROADCAST'
or the state..or the nationality..or the sex..or the skin..GROUP/MOB

my point is we are all..being made..over into clones..SET WAGE/ACIODING/TO..THE STANDARD.O.OF WORK/EXPECTED..FROM A FORCED SLAVE..

ONE BRUSH TARS..US ALL/
WE ARE ALL SINNERS/WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS...BEGGING..FOR WORK

we are..all..SPOILED/BELOVED..children..enjoined living mortal heirs of..the one most holy living living merciful immortal/omnipresenowholly spirit.

how to explain..to loved ones..whats going on
globally..is they give us foodstamps..or subsistence dole/PENAL TITHE/RATE/CASAUAL/AT CALL.ONE SIZE FITS ALL

where most half/govt income..goes back direct to some capitalist ..landlord/tax free.[off shored trust]..stealing govt/bailout cash..from..slaves..working/for\dole.

[we ARE SEEING REAL-ESTATE UP..AGAIN IN IRELAND..yet..still 5000 ghost estates..they bought up pennies in the pound..stand empty

but/what if*..we could..get cash/from govt via rent assistance for immigrants ..nice sure govt cash-flow..to fill to fill the capitalist bill..dole/rent assistance..

[yet more drain/from the public purse..filled only by selling more public services..[privatisations..of govt income streams..or by ever more sin taxes or fees fines revenue acces chargES/other increases in govt theft..[read tax burden]

WE ARE SEEING HOUSES GO UP/..YET/SEEING EVICTIONS AND REPOSSESSIONS..homeless joblessness broken homes..go up to

THEN..HUGE GOVT..bailout/mates..with TAX ADVANTAGED FIRMS CREATING THE NEXT INVESTMENT BOND..bubble..[bunded RENTED HOUSING]...damm caps..ie the next bubble[rental houses paid for immigrants via dole payments]

its a hidden bailout/
THE GROWTH MODEL DEMANDS
but..ONLY PUTS further NON PRODUCTIVE/Burden on us...ALL .GLOBALLY..
http://rss.infowars.com/20140417_Thu_Alex.mp3

i wish people would..get the facts
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node
GIVE THINGS A REST
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16225&page=0

HERE WE ARE YET AGAIN STANDING IN THE WRECK-AGE
hearts empty
..yet full of the rage of this age

why bother
reconstructing..a christian theo logy..if its not of the living

the living suffer..the pOOR are Kept down/little more than mere beasts
god will be pleased..one downtrodden/the other diss eased..they cry for help..but to cry reveals weakness
http://www.arunjain.com/jokes/Shit_-_A_Bird_Story.htm

when rape is unavoidable..ya go with the flow
when govt red tape has by colluded austerity measured us aLL into eTERNAL POVERTY..with all you know..how do you allow it to be so

http://xml.nfowars.net/Alex.rss

JESUS WILL BE SO IMPRESSED
you heard the cry..and heaped them up to their necks with thyne own wit.[i should a said shut-it]

then when the last value of your eNDLESS CCCRAP
set into stone..was.needs be broken free..you yet rejoiced in thyne own material celebrity..and thyne spiritual poverty.

to whom much was given
so much more was to be expected..
YOU work for satan..get far from me you spawn of demons

LORD SAYS remove THE proffaniTY..144.000
YEP THAT WORKS FOR ME..a falling tide reveals all boats.

OK TOPIC..IS..\OVER/..ITS FUNNY..how we\get upset..because we/cant look upon god..here..is a..fellow traveler..simply meeting..his guide
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Subaltern_Spirit_Land.pdf

p38..“As/like..when/one..is..seated on/a river’s-bank..some dark night,..and/one gazes down..into the black/waters..and sees..just one star reflected there,..and the dark waters reflect..not only the
lone star,...but also,..in some mysterious way,..the vast/space which lies..between our..world and..it'S-

so..it was now..between me..and my Guide.

“Then,..across the limitless space,..came a sound..and a voice
- like the sympathetic..VIBRATORY-D-note of a..mighty organ far,..far away...HEARD..VIA THE MINDS-EYE...E=KEY

It swelled..and swelled..as it grew nearer,.and finally it
burst..like a tempest upon me...Its music was superb..and yet awful. [In some such way..I..could imagine..AS..the angels trump will sound at the last day...If,..indeed,..there is a last..day.]

Or is it,..that/THIS..for me..this was the..‘last day’,
and this..the trump of the archangel..calling me to judgment?

“I know not...But in that Like/manner..I can best..describe the effect of..that mighty..melodious/cadence...The music was exquisite, yet..the pain was intense.[this is exta/intra sense..not sensual seNSING.. think more like precognition...even poem/or poetic cadencnce

“It burst..on me..[within]..and over me.
It overwhelmed me..and shattered me../It beat me to/the dust's of my very soul...and Yet..it was articulate,..knowing affirming..and the words..it spoke..into/mind..were words of comfort and good/cheer.

“‘My son,..you have started..on the right path.
You have broken down..the outer..veil/darkness..which shuts me away from you.,,now.

Go on..and prosper
little by little....I shall..draw nearer
and remember..even/though..you may drive me away from you,..yet will I never/desert you...*I cannot draw any nearer.than this lest I.. overwhelm you utterly.

I see how..even this first vision/seeing/experiencing..of me has shattered..and dazed you...“‘Grow strong in good works,..in loving acts,..in unselfish thoughts,..and so..as you/grow..;-)..more able to bear the sight..of the Glory,[within..us all..it most sureLY..shall be revealed to ALL..OF you.’

“Slowly the cadence receded,..and a great silence..took its place. I gazed on the....lone star,..and it changed..from white to blue..and blue..to green,..and green to orange,.and orange to red;..and red to purple.

*The purple grew pale..and became like lavender,and the lavender..was diffused with pink..which flashed into an extraordinary colour..which melted into silver...to brown and into purple again

“Then..waves of darkness..rolled over my star,
fold upon fold,..and..I could see it..no more.

god?
lol

you cant handle.,,a guardian/angel/little wonder..you..'see/no good'

THE TWO SAINTS IS A SPECIAL TIME
but lets see the sign by design..of the bent cross double cross

anyhow it was meant be BE A SYMBOL OF THE HORRORS OF WORLD WAR
BUT THE BENT CROSS RUNS DEePER THAN SIMPLY JOINING THE SINISTER TO THE RIGHT.
http://rss.infowars.com/20140501_Thu_Alex.mp3

) in the case of coins of another denomination--for payment of any amount.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), a coin shall be deemed to be not of current weight if it has become diminished in weight by wear or otherwise so as to be of less weight than the weight prescribed as the least current weight of that coin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44hT122k6qY
If the Vatican claims a woman that is healed by John Paul II after his death makes him a saint, which according to Scripture is a bold faced lie, then would a statue erected in his honor that kills a man now declare him evil?
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=VATICAN+CRUSAFIX+CRUSHES+MAN&
let the judgment daze begin..make me explain