.

Dear George,

.

What you wrote previously was:

“All that Butterfield claims … is that you should not judge the two things happening in the Middle Ages as if they happened today”.

You now indicate:

[ I agree that I should have written (about not judging medieval events) :

“in the light of how they (such things) are judged today” instead of “as if they happened today”. ]

The revised phrase therefore reads as follows:

“All that Butterfield claims … is that you should not judge the two things happening in the Middle Ages in the light of how they are judged today”.

The difference between these two versions is the "date of occurrence" of the "two things" ( events). In the first version we judge them as though they occurred today. In the second, we judge them at their actual date of occurrence (within the context at that time) and in the light of subsequent evolution which we now have the advantage of knowing (their "historical perspective").

Butterfield expressed his theory in the following terms:

“The study of the past with one eye upon the present is the source of all sins and sophistries in history. It is the essence of what we mean by the word “unhistorical” – Herbert Butterfield, The Whig Interpretation of History (1931).

Am I right in thinking that we now agree that Butterfield is referring to the second version and not the first version as you initially stated ?

If so, what effect, if any, does this have on your opinion of Butterfield’s theory ?

.

jABOj/QUOTE..<<..Religion is the scourge of the whole world,>>

SCOURGE=The typical scourge (Latin: flagrum; diminutive: flagellum) has several thongs fastened to a handle;

The scourge, or flail, and the crook are the two symbols of power and domination depicted in the hands of Osiris in Egyptian monuments.[2] They are the unchanging form of the instrument throughout the ages,[1] though the flail depicted in Egyptian mythology was an agricultural instrument used to thresh wheat, not implement corporal punishment

the wHeat threshing flail..<<..always has been and always will be>>

its nonsense oj religion..IS a wheat threshing allways has beenb

nO YOUR MIXING UP META WHORES..SEE THE BIBLE SAUS LET THE TARE GROW WITH THE Wheat till harvest[deaTH]..WHEN WE SORT THE TARES FROM THE WHEAT/THEN THRESH THe wheat and burn the tARES.

YOU SEEM CONFUSED/YOUR Anger has made YOU BLIND

<<..Selective good readings from the so called Bible which spews from the mouths of the clergy should be abolished and more of the corrupt readings should be told to the gullible and stupid public,>>

you have any specific cases or this generalization is all inclusive?

is it all many most few or i heard of one one day?

<<..lets have so called truths,>>

TOO RIGHT/I FOR ONE GOT NO TIME FOR DEFENDING SINNS
[as a follower of the christ i JUST HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO FORGIVE THE SINNER..nOT HIS SIN

<<..good and bad from this book>>

OF COURSE GOD MUST BE SEEN TO BE FAIR
IF THE BOOK WAS A LAY DOWN Misere/NONE COULD Reject god and 'live'

but its not/iy allows at all time EXCUSE TO IGNORE OR OBEY

<<.. instead of sugar coated bullxxxx.>>

NO THANKS THEY may be kosHA BUT NO WAY THEY GO ANYWHERE NEAR MY MOUTH
[YOPU SWEET Talkers you..but heck you go ahead..bite hard into the thing that god blEW WIND INTO..[IT JUST SEEMS SO WRONG IN MANY WAYS

ALMOST AS BAD AS THAT GREAT Rejuvenating skIN CREAM MADE FROM LITTLE FORESKIN BITS..YEAH IT DOES TAKE OUT WRINKLES BUT THE KARMA of it stains our soul.

cheers..joda

Dear George,

You wrote: “I grew up in a world where “reactionary” was everything that was against the official Marx-Leninist line, Americans and West Europeans (except for the “proletariat” and Communists) were all reactionaries. So for me “reactionary” means being against an official ideology, in particular going against “positive” developments in history. These associations of mine are, of course, not your fault.”

It is somewhat my fault since I am aware of the world you grew up in and knew of their use of the word, reactionary. I will now do what I should have done before and define my usage. I consider the word, reactionary, to mean a tendency to retreat from what I regard as the positive aspects of society and restore what I regard as the negative aspects of the past. By that definition Marxism-Leninism is reactionary since it restricts freedom by censorship, secret police, concentration camps and other means. A counterrevolution seeks to undo the revolution and restore the past. The revolutionary government under Kerensky was overthrown by the Leninists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy,_Autocracy,_and_Nationality

"Orthodoxy, Autocracy and Nationality also known as Official Nationality was the dominant ideological doctrine of Russian emperor Nicholas I. It was "the Russian version of a general European ideology of restoration and reaction" that followed the Napoleonic Wars.

"The Triad" of Official Nationality was originally proposed by Minister of Education Sergey Uvarov in his April 2, 1833 circular letter to subordinate educators. It was soon embraced by Nicholas and his establishment and gained wide public recognition, vocally supported by intellectuals like Mikhail Pogodin, Fyodor Tyutchev and Nikolai Gogol."

Marxism-Leninism replaced Orthodoxy. Dictatorship replaced Autocracy. The Party replaced Nationality. With Lenin came the reactionary counterrevolution. Leninism is czarism reincarnated.

Christianity has served as a rallying centre against tyranny for Catholics in czarist-occupied Poland, English-occupied Ireland and many other places. Unfortunately, it has also served as a support for tyranny for the Orthodox in czarist Russia, Anglicans in English-occupied Ireland and many other places. Separation of church and state serves to preserve the church’s freedom to criticise government wrong-doing. I am repeating myself.

davidf 14th April writes; "In regard to eastern and western civilisations I agree mostly with you. We should be aware of the differences and similarities. We should try to avoid sweeping generalisations and realise we generally are not as familiar with other cultures as we are of our own. We should also realise they is a tendency to exalt what we are familiar with and identify with."

Thanks for an excellent expression of the sentiment that I stumbled around with. Very well put.

Dear Banjo,

I am not sure what is Butterfield’s theory or where is the problem. I have already conceded that I should have written

“All that Butterfield claims, as I understand his quote, is that you should not judge the two things happening in the Middle Ages in the light of how they (such things) are judged today” .

Here “judge” is to mean “form an opinion or conclusion about” not to decide about the truthfulness of what they thought or morality of what they did. To illustrate the difference I gave the example of a “young Earth” believer.

The mass killing of innocent people is bad by any moral standards, but the gas chambers are especially repugnant because they happened in modern times and the perpetrators were (supposed to be) cultural heirs of Goethe and Schiller. So taking into account the historical context can work both ways.

Dear david f,

You gave a very good description of the world that I came to have a personal experience with.

>>I consider the word, reactionary, to mean a tendency to retreat from what I regard as the positive aspects of society and restore what I regard as the negative aspects of the past. <<

This is a clear definition exposing the subjective meaning of the word, even when on most (but perhaps not all) aspects of what is and what is not reactionary we can all agree. During my “Stalinist” teenage years I dreamed of “restoring the past” becuase that was all the alternative I could imagine: books in my father’s library, the only alternatives to what was prescribed at school and available in shops, were all printed in the thirties.

>>Separation of church and state serves to preserve the church’s freedom to criticise government wrong-doing. <<

I think you know that I completely agree with this.

I shall have to attend now to a number of Easter greetings I am getting, so - sorry for being somewhat late - Happy Passover.

Happy Passover.“The point of cleaning.OUR Heart..for Pesach is to remember..that we are leaving HOME/HEARTH,..leaving the things that constrict us.spiritually.” – Rabbi Shimon Raichik

“The message of Passover..is Freedom is won/not..on the battlefield but..in the classroom..and the home...Teach your children the history of freedom...if you want them TO live it.” -- Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks

“Pesach..is not only about..that good of "freedom from."
It is about..our having the freedom.."to"..[make the world a more sacred place..by expanding OUR Awareness..OF God's presence..living of/on/WITH/in...ALL OF it.” – Rabbi David A. Teutsch

“This is..OUR ONE TRUE true freedom:..Our ability to shape reality.

We Gave..to you..the power to initiate,.create..and change your/OWN reality..rather than only react..and,,SEEK/TO..survive it...How can we all educate..all/our children...to ///more fully/realize/true freedom..lies if freeing other?

Teach them..not to look at reality..as defining their acts
but to look...at their acts..as COLLECTIVELY re-defining reality.” – Yaacov Cohen

"Freedom..is within our grasp,..and Pesach reminds us..that we need find the will..to Teach."..TO REACH Above our station-- Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson

Passover.is a time of reflection..and..recalling joy.
When we emerge from our cocoon's/..Of doubt to fly freely
On the wings of loving service to other.

Blessed be ye..of the LIVING Lord
Who made heaven and earth...LIVE BY ENDLESS rebirth.
Happy Passover!

Passover Celebrates/God's Gift of..life/logic/light and Love
May you see..His mighty hand..In every detail..Of your life..WITH/in others living...Happy Passover

Shalom..from the prince/who Sought/THE PRICE.of /PEACE
On Passover and always..May you rejoice in..the living peace..only love of all..GODS pieces.[other] brings

“The mere thought..hadn't even begun to speculate
about..the merest possibility..of crossing..FROM..within/my SLEEPING mind.”

Douglas Adams



I Like/this quote
I dislike/THAT QUOTE
this quote.“If man...could be crossed with the cat,..it would improve man...but deteriorate the dog.”

Mark Twain quotes



I have noticed..even people..who claim
that...everything is predestined,..foreordained
and that....we can do nothing..to change it,.YET/..EVEN..They.look before..they cross the road.”

Stephen Hawking



“The word.''Christianity''..is already..a misunderstanding
in reality......there has been..only one Christian,..and he died on the Cross.”

Friedrich Nietzsche


“Like two..doomed ships..that pass..in storm..
we...had crossed/each other's way:...but.we made no sign,..we said no word,.we..had no word...to say.”

0Zcar wild

by..their works..will ye know them..\this quote/..as was rote..
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/a-look-at-the-new-warsaw-ghetto-we-know-as-gaza/
http://english.wafa.ps/index.php?action=detail&id=24914
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/israel-blackmailing-palestinians-over-projects-1.1320266
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hfBla6r_CwE
http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/rigging-game-palestinians/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/what-happens-when-all-assets-have-become-too-expensive/