no/aj.one question

from page..iii/intro

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

without devoting more space to these problems,..for those
who desire verifiable/evidence

let us turn to consider the
matter given in these pages.

The original plan of the work
as arranged by H. J. L. was as follows: —
The Astral plane —
(a) As seen by a bad man, viz. The Officer.
(b) As seen by an average man of the world, viz. W. A.

The Spirit plane, divided into —
(1) Hell, or the Realm of Unbelief, related by The Officer.
(2) The Realm of Half-Belief, related by H. J. L.
(3) The Realm of Belief lacking in Works, related by J. B.P.
(4) The Realm of Belief shown forth in Works, related by The Monk.

Owing to the enhanced cost of production due to the war,
it was found necessary to..reduce the book to a manageable size.

To do this we were reluctantly compelled to
publish only The Astral Plane, Hell, and the Realm of Half-Belief.

As these are set forth
in full, it will not be necessary to deal with them here,
but a few words may be devoted to..the two higher realms.

The Realm of Belief lacking in Works, as depicted by J. B. P., is much brighter than..the Realm of Half-Belief, the light being as the light in England at about 8 a.m. on a
summer’s day.

To this realm go all those whose faith was strong,
but narrow and rather bigoted, and..who failed, as many do, to act up fully to their beliefs.

In the lowest division of this realm...

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

AJ Phillips.

You have stated that beliefs no matter how benign affect people and wider society.

I couldn't agree more.

It is the ordinary mums and dads with simple belief systems, who contribute billions of dollars annually both in man hours and funds raised to disadvantaged groups. If it weren't for these people, the government would have to find this. Without their simple belief, these people might not bother. Also they are united under a strong common bond, which creates harmony of co-operation. People with a belief system share a particularly, unique bond. I believe all fair-minded people would agree.

You will undoubtedly respond that atheists can also do this. But there is no guarantee, certainly about the numbers who would do so. Additionally they would not have the bond, that people of the same religion have, a bond which works very well.

Another argument was that of those relying upon faith instead of doing something ... I had a catholic upbringing and a constant was "god helps those who help themselves; "do everything you can, and then trust in god".

You raised the issue of homeopathy, which as far as I know is not born out of a religious system. And yes, it is dangerous. But any fundamentalist belief system is ... whether it be religion, ideology , philosophy, and the other myriad areas of dottiness ... Most of which, atheism, with its concern about religion, would not counter.

Medical annals report that mostly those who have a belief system do better during treatment and have better prognoses than those that don't. This is especially so with cancer.

You state the reason some need religion to be happy, is due to a bad society. Many, many people who get some joy from their religion, are quite inured from the ills of society and indeed have fulfilled lives, but their religious belief gives their lives an added dimension.

cont ..

I am sorry Danniells but I disagree with nearly all of your last post, you have been brought up a Catholic and will always be one,I was brought up as a srict Methodist but saw the light in my later life that the Bible was all fairy tales, and Atheism was for me, you must understand if Atheists congregate then immediately is classed as an Atheist church, which we do not want, surprisingly I have a very religious sister in lawa who did nothing for my mother in her last years of life, she relied on the Atheist side of the family, likewise I live next door to Catholics but if the neighbours want help they come to the Atheists, which is us, Microsoft owner donates millions to charity the same as any religious person, we all donate where possible, if we also look at Obama & Bush, war mongering people, but bible bashers at the same time.
Daniells I am tired of this post as those who believe will always believe except those that see the light and change to Atheism or nothing, and I know quite a few clergy who have.
Keep also in mind that churches whether giving to charity or not, and many don't, receive tax free grants from the Government.
Yes!all people will give to charities and as a last say on this topic I would sooner the money spent by our Government on neceesary projects, rather than having two pampered and rich people coming out to Australia next year, we should get our priorities right.

Ojnab,

As you are a departed Methodist, I am a departed Catholic. From my earliest recollections I had problems with Catholicism, becoming strident as I grew older, until these were untenable; as was Christianity.

This was me. Obviously it doesn't extend to everyone.

However, whatever position I take, I endeavour to be even-handed and fair. No debate can be conducted without these principles.

Many of the most generous philanthropists follow a religion.

Microsoft donate to religious denominations.

AJ Phillips.

cont ...

Like you, I detest any religion which damages individuals or society in any way. But, at least here in Australia, there is very little fundamentalism or extremism. Religions as practiced here are gentle and benign. You mention condemnation of homosexuals, etc. etc. There are clerics prepared to wed homosexuals, and certainly stand up for their rights ...And the list goes on for every ill you contribute to religion ...

In addition, for every "negative" you see about religious beliefs, (ie about homosexuality) there are just as many atheist joe-blows who also condemn it, ... and perhaps act upon their dislike in undesirable ways ...

Perhaps I am fortunate, but non of my friends who maintain a religious belief - and I do rank friends among such - have ever disparaged homosexuals.

From my personal observation, among "believers" there are various shades of belief as there are various shades of theological knowledge. This makes an enormous difference to outcomes.

The biggest problem with atheists is that they risk throwing the baby out with the bath water and thus leave society in certain ways diminished.

It was Emile Durkheim, one of the first sociologists
to apply the perspective to religion in a systematic
way. His study, "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life,"
was first published in 1912 and has since become a classic.
Many of Durkheim's contemporaries saw religion as nothing
more than a primitive relic that would soon disappear in
the more sophisticated modern world. But Durkheim was
impressed by the fact that religion is universal in
human society, and he wondered why this should be so.
His answer was that religion has a vital function in
maintaining the social system as a whole.

Durkheim believed that the origins of religion were social,
not supernatural. He pointed out that whatever their
source, the rituals enacted in any religion enhance the
solidarity of the community as well as its faith.

Consider such rituals as Baptism, Bar Mitzvah, Weddings,
Sabbath services, Christmas Mass, and funerals.
Rituals like these serve to bring people together, to remind
them of their common group membership, to reaffirm
their traditional values, to maintain prohibitions and
taboos, to offer comfort in times of crisis, and in general to
help transmit the cultural heritage from one generation
to the next.

In fact, Durkheim argued, shared religious beliefs and
the rituals that go with them are so important that every
society needs a religion, or at least some belief system
that serves the same functions.

For many years it was widely felt that as science
progressively provided rational explanations for the
mysteries of the universe, religion would have less and
less of a role to play and would eventually disappear,
unmasked as nothing more than superstition. But there are
gaps in our understanding that science can never fill.
On the ultimately important questions - of the meaning
and purpose of life and the nature of morality.

Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny
the possibility of some higher power in the universe,
some supernatural, transcendental realm that lies
beyond the boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this
fundamental sense religion is probably here to stay.

Foxy,

Thank you for raising Emile Durkheim and adding those comments.

Very few sociologists would refute his thesis.